Nissan Leaf 60kWh

Miscreant

Mike9832 wrote: »

Mike9832 wrote: »

Who knows

Nissan are in disarray now

Huge power struggle behind the scenes, Japs are not exactly fans of EVs either, if they get more control who knows what direction they will go

Nissan have made a right mess of things, from a pioneer/leader in electric vehicles with the before it's time Leaf in 2010

10 years later in 2020 they have an LG 60kWh Leaf

4 years after GM released the LG 60kWh Chevy Bolt

What a disaster

Leaf has been delayed

Disaster

https://insideevs.com/nissan-postpones-launch-60-kwh-leaf-e-plus/

That link is literally the reason for this thread and is in post 1. The Leaf 60 reveal has been delayed is my understanding of reading the piece and not necessarily the whole car itself. It may still go on sale to whatever Nissan's original schedule was but no one is sure at the moment (other than Nissan of course, but they're being tight lipped about it). Once they believe the whole Ghosn thing has died down then they'll be back on track.

Mike9832

Miscreant wrote: »

That link is literally the reason for this thread and is in post 1. The Leaf 60 reveal has been delayed is my understanding of reading the piece and not necessarily the whole car itself. It may still go on sale to whatever Nissan's original schedule was but no one is sure at the moment (other than Nissan of course, but they're being tight lipped about it). Once they believe the whole Ghosn thing has died down then they'll be back on track.

Update

unkel

Mike9832 wrote: »

Update

Nothing new in there. The L60 was never going to be launched in November 2018. It was always realistically a 2020 car.

Lame to blame it on the issues surrounding Ghosn imho...

Maybe they have decided to cancel it due to LG production shortages. I know I wouldn't spend extra (insert a figure approx. 5k here) over the L40 to have more range, even with the promised faster charging. The L40 is good enough for us: Over the past 7k/4 months we have used public charging twice. It's the same thing as with the Kona/Niro. The approx. 40 kWh at approx. 30k would actually be the sweet spot regarding price/performance. Spending anything more than that doesn't make sense financially.

Nissan should really focus in improving the efficiency of the drive train instead.

ELM327

samih wrote: »

Maybe they have decided to cancel it due to LG production shortages. I know I wouldn't spend extra (insert a figure approx. 5k here) over the L40 to have more range, even with the promised faster charging. The L40 is good enough for us: Over the past 7k/4 months we have used public charging twice. It's the same thing as with the Kona/Niro. The approx. 40 kWh at approx. 30k would actually be the sweet spot regarding price/performance. Spending anything more than that doesn't make sense financially.

Nissan should really focus in improving the efficiency of the drive train instead.

Focus on drivetrain efficiency (despite being the first mainstream player, they are now behind the curve on this factor) and add active thermal management, a must these days.


If they rework the leaf 40 with a drivetrain improvement of 1.2 factor, added active thermal management (even air cooled like Ioniq) - don't half ass it like they did for the env200 40kWh, they would have a much more marketable EV.



It could be this is what they are working on for the upgraded Leaf60, because - while they are the major player volume wise outside of the US - this will not last when others have bigger batteries, faster charging, more efficient drivetrains, CCS compatibility and for similar price.

KCross

samih wrote: »

Nissan should really focus in improving the efficiency of the drive train instead.

100%

And its not an aerodynamic issue. Its something in their drivetrain.... the motor windings, the reduction gear, the battery etc etc.... they need to fix that.

Throwing more battery capacity at it isnt the solution if the efficiency is still poor.

I think they have a motor which is designed for slow Japanese driving. They should design one for faster european motorways.

A 31kWh Ioniq getting the same range as a 40kWh Leaf is ridiculous.

Zenith74

Mike9832 wrote: »

Leaf has been delayed
Disaster

There's really no indication that the arrival of the car to showrooms has been delayed. The quote from Nissan in the article is “to ensure that this important product unveiling could receive the coverage it merits” which as others have said directly states that the launch event itself has been delayed, while making no mention of the car itself.

I don't think anybody knows for sure if the showroom arrival date has been delayed or not, but nothing in the wording from Nissan suggests it has, in-fact they seem to have gone out of their way to keep saying delayed "launch", "event", "product unveiling" and not delayed car.

With the L40 Nissan are reaping the benefit of the foresight of their own battery cell manufacturing and just keep using slightly improved drive train from 2010 as it's just about good enough, but is wasting energy and not reaping the benefit of the slightly larger than average battery pack. The motor for example is the exact same unit that has been in the facelifted L24 since 2013.

Agreed ELM. I hope they'll just add fan cooling to L40 battery packs and will then launch a brand new car with CCS with the LG 64 kWh pack when the batteries are actually available in volume sometime in the future. The L40 upgrade could alternatively be canceled if they launched the new car with the existing 40 kWh pack if that's the only way to ensure supply. If they got the efficiency in line with Hyundai even that car would have a range of approx. 300 km and 400-500 km with the 64 pack.

KCross

KCross wrote: »

100%

And its not an aerodynamic issue. Its something in their drivetrain.... the motor windings, the reduction gear, the battery etc etc.... they need to fix that.

Throwing more battery capacity at it isnt the solution if the efficiency is still poor.

I think they have a motor which is designed for slow Japanese driving. They should design one for faster european motorways.

A 31kWh Ioniq getting the same range as a 40kWh Leaf is ridiculous.

It's not just the aero, agreed, altough that ruins the efficiency of L40 at motorway. The difference in efficiency is even more marked at low speeds. You can't really hypermile the L40 the same way IONIQ can do 400 km when driven really slowly. The baseline energy efficiency of L40 is just poor. The range at LEAFspeed(tm) in summer is just about acceptable compared to IONIQ but still poor. For some reason the L40 and Tesla Model S consume approx. same amount which is almost unbelivable really.

ELM327

To be honest I think there should be more crossover and cost sharing between Renault and Nissan. The next Zoe is rumored (confirmed at this point?) to be CCS, 60kWh, with 22kW AC and 100kW DC CCS support.

All of that would sit perfectly in the next leaf. It's essentially the same company so I don't see why there isn't more partnering to share costs of improvement and operational efficiencies.

ELM327

ELM327 wrote: »

To be honest I think there should be more crossover and cost sharing between Renault and Nissan. The next Zoe is rumored (confirmed at this point?) to be CCS, 60kWh, with 22kW AC and 100kW DC CCS support.

All of that would sit perfectly in the next leaf. It's essentially the same company so I don't see why there isn't more partnering to share costs of improvement and operational efficiencies.

Maybe that's what will happen in 2019. The original plan was to merge the Zoe/LEAF platforms. The specs above sound like a good match for what we want.

KCross

samih wrote: »

It's not just the aero, agreed, altough that ruins the efficiency of L40 at motorway. The difference in efficiency is even more marked at low speeds. You can't really hypermile the L40 the same way IONIQ can do 400 km when driven really slowly. The baseline energy efficiency of L40 is just poor. The range at LEAFspeed(tm) in summer is just about acceptable compared to IONIQ but still poor. For some reason the L40 and Tesla Model S consume approx. same amount which is almost unbelivable really.

Nissan are not alone either, the iPace has shockingly bad efficiency as well, which is why it has a massive pack to compensate.

liamog

Motorway speed limits in Japan are 100km/h and 120km/h in South Korea.

Seems like the engineers have optimised for their home markets.

Zenith74

From https://www.reddit.com/r/electricvehicles/comments/a2zrbk/60kwh_nissan_leaf_will_not_have_liquid_cooling/

Leaf60 due in Europe May 2019, €5800 supplement, power up from 110 to 150kW, charging up from 50kW to 100kW, air cooled battery (not water :-( ). Assuming the site can be believed...

ELM327

Zenith74 wrote: »

From https://www.reddit.com/r/electricvehicles/comments/a2zrbk/60kwh_nissan_leaf_will_not_have_liquid_cooling/

Leaf60 due in Europe May 2019, €5800 supplement, power up from 110 to 150kW, charging up from 50kW to 100kW, air cooled battery (not water :-( ). Assuming the site can be believed...

If that site is to be believed it means they've put the same half ar$ed solution they had in the env200 40kWh, a fan that only works when the car is being DC quick charged, and is turned on.


In other EVs , even aircooled ones like Ioniq or Zoe, the fans come on regardless to cool down the battery.


Another turd from the nissan factory unfortunately. It seems.

unkel

samih wrote: »

I know I wouldn't spend extra (insert a figure approx. 5k here) over the L40 to have more range

This. Even the 28kWh in Ioniq is perfectly fine if we had a reasonable fast charging network. It means just one stop from wherever to wherever in Ireland. No way would I spend the guts of €40k for a basic econobox EV from Korea / Japan even if it had 1000km range

ELM327

unkel wrote: »

This. Even the 28kWh in Ioniq is perfectly fine if we had a reasonable fast charging network. It means just one stop from wherever to wherever in Ireland. No way would I spend the guts of €40k for a basic econobox EV from Korea / Japan even if it had 1000km range

I'll admit I have had my head turned by the Kona, but before that I would have agreed with you.


40k is nonsense for an ecobox but if you think of it as a 25k car with a 15k battery it makes a lot more sense. Plus if I had the kona I wouldnt need to charge at home at all, just charge to 100% in work on Friday evening and arrive in on LBW on monday morning!

Shefwedfan

ELM327 wrote: »

If that site is to be believed it means they've put the same half ar$ed solution they had in the env200 40kWh, a fan that only works when the car is being DC quick charged, and is turned on.


In other EVs , even aircooled ones like Ioniq or Zoe, the fans come on regardless to cool down the battery.


Another turd from the nissan factory unfortunately. It seems.

Correct me if I am wrong, the issue with the Leaf is when it is charging so if it has a fan then it will be able to charge faster? or am I looking at it too simple?

unkel

ELM327 wrote: »

40k is nonsense for an ecobox but if you think of it as a 25k car with a 15k battery it makes a lot more sense.

I would think of it as a €50k econobox with €10k subsidy. Madness! Nice looking car though the Kona and if you do big miles and regularly travel long distances it could be worth it. The car isn't sold out everywhere for nothing!

ELM327 wrote: »

if I had the kona I wouldnt need to charge at home at all, just charge to 100% in work on Friday evening and arrive in on LBW on monday morning!

Sure, spend an extra €15,000 to save another €100 per year in electricity

unkel

unkel wrote: »

I would think of it as a €50k econobox with €10k subsidy. Madness! Nice looking car though the Kona and if you do big miles and regularly travel long distances it could be worth it. The car isn't sold out everywhere for nothing!



Sure, spend an extra €15,000 to save another €100 per year in electricity

That's why the large battery budget cars don't make sense. If you can afford one you should buy something properly nice instead.

There are probably some use cases where the large battery makes sense, i.e. if you can claim huge mileage etc. etc.

Shefwedfan

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Correct me if I am wrong, the issue with the Leaf is when it is charging so if it has a fan then it will be able to charge faster? or am I looking at it too simple?

The lower discharge rate of the large battery when driven a set speed may or may not help here. But the L40 at least does heat its battery when you drive above the LEAFspeed.

ELM327

unkel wrote: »

I would think of it as a €50k econobox with €10k subsidy. Madness! Nice looking car though the Kona and if you do big miles and regularly travel long distances it could be worth it. The car isn't sold out everywhere for nothing!



Sure, spend an extra €15,000 to save another €100 per year in electricity

#manmath

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Correct me if I am wrong, the issue with the Leaf is when it is charging so if it has a fan then it will be able to charge faster? or am I looking at it too simple?

Partly true, but other EVs will have fans that come on when driving hard, stay on after charging to cool down the battery, start on a hot day, come on when charging and the car is turned off.


The fan in the env 200 only comes on when DC charging and when the ignition is switched on, meaning you have to be in the car. Useless.

KCross

ELM327 wrote: »

The fan in the env 200 only comes on when DC charging and when the ignition is switched on, meaning you have to be in the car. Useless.

Is your recollection of that coming from Bjorn's video on it?
I believe that was proven false. He misinterpreted it, iirc.

Soarer

ELM327 wrote: »

meaning you have to be in the car. Useless.

Not really.

People on here get their knickers in a twist when people leave their cars while rapid-charging.

ELM327

KCross wrote: »

Is your recollection of that coming from Bjorn's video on it?
I believe that was proven false. He misinterpreted it, iirc.

Yes it was from Bjorn's video, if it's misinterpreted well at least that's something. It made zero sense to only work with the ignition on!

Soarer wrote: »

Not really.

People on here get their knickers in a twist when people leave their cars while rapid-charging.

People everywhere get their knickers in a twist about everything, I just mind my own business and dont listen to them. Because, there's no rule that states I must (or even "should") remain with the car.

Old diesel

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Correct me if I am wrong, the issue with the Leaf is when it is charging so if it has a fan then it will be able to charge faster? or am I looking at it too simple?

On the eNV200 the fan/air cooling struggles badly on the 40 kwh version.

I suspect the 60 kwh wont use the exact same system but its not looking promising.

What I want to know is what role LG Chem have in this situation as they have to stand over the battery.

Edit - by not exactly same system - I'd expect Nissan to not use the exact same fan for example - to use a more powerful fan for superior cooling for example.

I also wonder if the article is fully correct on the cooling while charging. Yes of course it will cool while charging but surely the extra needs of the 60 kwh cooling wise would call for while drIving active cooling.

No cooling while driving will mean a reliance on passive cooling which is a big NO NO on a 60 kwh.

One of the advantages of Rapidgate in this regard is that Nissan can be grilled hard on the exact cooling strategy the 60 kwh uses.

Why does the Kona use liquid cooling but Nissan use air cooling for example.

For me the problems if they are present can be demonstrated VERY quickly as with the original Rapidgate.

Id also like to note that the eNV200 40 driver I follow on twitter had the following interesting experience recently.

1st charge - normal speed.

2nd charge - rapidgate.

He then plugs into a 7 kwh charger and the cooling for the battery kicks in. Leaves the eNV200 for 1 hour plugged in.

The reduced battery temperature after one hour at 7 kw charger allowed....

3rd rapid at normal full speed.

This suggests that air cooling can actually have an impact

Old diesel

Green car reports are saying the 60 kwh "in a first for Nissan the new battery reportedly will have liquid cooling".

This was in a piece written todays date reporting the cars absence from the LA auto show

Mike9832

Old diesel wrote: »

Green car reports are saying the 60 kwh "in a first for Nissan the new battery reportedly will have liquid cooling".

This was in a piece written todays date reporting the cars absence from the LA auto show

Believe it

100% will have liquid cooling whenever it's released

Its an LG Leaf

Like the Kona, Niro, Bolt, Soul and many other EVs that will use the LG 150kW/64kWh/liquid cooled platform

Like how BMW made diesels units for everyone

LG are doing the same

Old diesel

Mike9832 wrote: »

Believe it

100% will have liquid cooling whenever it's released

Its an LG Leaf

Like the Kona, Niro, Bolt, Soul and many other EVs that will use the LG 150kW/64kWh/liquid cooled platform

Like how BMW made diesels units for everyone

LG are doing the same

Youd think so but the other report implies otherwise.

Mike9832

Old diesel wrote: »

Youd think so but the other report implies otherwise.

I wouldn't believe them

Make no sense

Unless LG are not supplying the cells, if they are its 100% 150kW motor/64kWh/liquid cooled unit

Mike9832

ELM327 wrote: »

+1
Anyone selling a proper range EV for 25k will sell all of them that they produce.
And obliterate everything else!

If Nissan sold the Leaf40 for sub 23k they could do it, I'd buy one at that price

Thats all they worth compared to the much superior Ioniq at 26k

liamog

Have to agree here, the fact that LG Chem is making the pack means it likely to have a proper cooling system

In fact given the experience of rapidgate they'd be really insane to remove what is a essentially a stock system.

Mike9832

liamog wrote: »

Have to agree here, the fact that LG Chem is making the pack means it likely to have a proper cooling system

In fact given the experience of rapidgate they'd be really insane to remove what is a essentially a stock system.

Seems to be a press launch in Jan at CES, hopefully good news

Why Chademo?

Any 100kW charges in Ireland

Mike9832

Old diesel wrote: »

On the eNV200 the fan/air cooling struggles badly on the 40 kwh version.

I suspect the 60 kwh wont use the exact same system but its not looking promising.

What I want to know is what role LG Chem have in this situation as they have to stand over the battery.

Edit - by not exactly same system - I'd expect Nissan to not use the exact same fan for example - to use a more powerful fan for superior cooling for example.

I also wonder if the article is fully correct on the cooling while charging. Yes of course it will cool while charging but surely the extra needs of the 60 kwh cooling wise would call for while drIving active cooling.

No cooling while driving will mean a reliance on passive cooling which is a big NO NO on a 60 kwh.

One of the advantages of Rapidgate in this regard is that Nissan can be grilled hard on the exact cooling strategy the 60 kwh uses.

Why does the Kona use liquid cooling but Nissan use air cooling for example.

For me the problems if they are present can be demonstrated VERY quickly as with the original Rapidgate.

I am all for liquid cooling too

Ioniq uses air cooling with a fan and it doesn't seem to have any issues with heat build up from what I have read, but it's using a different battery chemistry and doesn't charge at 70kW for very long with its small 31kWh pack

Leaf is supposedly going to charge at 100kW for a much longer time with its 60 odd kWh pack

Charging on those big DC chargers generates alot of heat and if charging is 97% efficient at 100kW, 3kW has to be kept cooled somewhere

Thats 2 electric heaters at full power being cooled by a fan for maybe 20mins, liquid cooling is there for a reason

Silent Running

Mike9832 wrote: »

I am all for liquid cooling too

Ioniq uses air cooling with a fan and it doesn't seem to have any issues with heat build up from what I have read, but it's using a different battery chemistry and doesn't charge at 70kW for very long with its small 31kWh pack

Leaf is supposedly going to charge at 100kW for a much longer time with its 60 odd kWh pack

Charging on those big DC chargers generates alot of heat and if charging is 97% efficient at 100kW, 3kW has to be kept cooled somewhere

Thats 2 electric heaters at full power being cooled by a fan for maybe 20mins, liquid cooling is there for a reason

I did 4 fast charges, separated by fast motorway last week. I had no problems at all. The fan can be heard running and it didn't seem to run very long, but it did cycle in and out. This makes me thing it didn't need to work too hard, or it would be running full speed constantly. No charging slowdown was evident.

Such a simple system. I have no idea why Nissan didn't do this with the Leaf 40.

ELM327

Mike9832 wrote: »

Seems to be a press launch in Jan at CES, hopefully good news

Why Chademo?

Any 100kW charges in Ireland

Doesn't exist beyond 62.5kW and you need 500V battery pack for that.
Chademo 2.0 does not exist outside of a few in maybe Norway and some APAC countries.

KCross

Mike9832 wrote: »

Charging on those big DC chargers generates alot of heat and if charging is 97% efficient at 100kW, 3kW has to be kept cooled somewhere

Thats 2 electric heaters at full power being cooled by a fan for maybe 20mins, liquid cooling is there for a reason

You are referring to the charger losses there and the chargers have their own fans.

You are right though, a 60kWh+ battery charging at 100kWh for an extended period of time is going to need heavier duty cooling than a simple fan.

KCross

Transport evolved are reporting that the long range leaf will use active air cooling driven off the a/c and it won’t have liquid cooling!

She is citing inside dealer knowledge.

peposhi

Since I test drove the Kona I am certain it is worth waiting a bit to do an upgrade. Wow, some range that car has. Can not wait for the new Leaf to test and compare and hopefully other models would enter the scene to make the market more competitive...
I am actually hoping the L60 would take my breath away

unkel

peposhi wrote: »

I am actually hoping the L60 would take my breath away

How? It's going to look exactly the same as the L40

Hopefully with a lot more range and no fast charging issues.

unkel

KCross wrote: »

Transport evolved are reporting that the long range leaf will use active air cooling driven off the a/c and it won’t have liquid cooling!

That's what Ioniq uses, right? Seems to work fine under any conditions. Charging speed is never compromised, no matter how warm or cold it is or how fast you were driving or how many times you have fast charged already

Or would it be a lot more difficult to cool a pack twice the size of that in Ioniq with just air cooling?

KCross

unkel wrote: »

That's what Ioniq uses, right? Seems to work fine under any conditions. Charging speed is never compromised, no matter how warm or cold it is or how fast you were driving or how many times you have fast charged already

Or would it be a lot more difficult to cool a pack twice the size of that in Ioniq with just air cooling?

I think its slightly different but maybe the Ioniq gurus know more.

I think the Ioniq is just a fan blowing ambient air over the pack?

Transport Evolved are reporting that the new Leaf with LG Chem pack will blow air pre-cooled by the a/c over the pack... so not just ambient air.


Not sure if the Ioniq involves the a/c in its cooling or not?

Water John

If the tech is that simple, it's pathetic that it wasn't incl on the L40.

Old diesel

Nikki (transport evolved) appears to be getting her info from the same German report we have all already seen.

She reckons the L60 will use the same cooling system as the eNV200 and doesn't appear to have heard of the rapidgate issues with the 40 kwh eNV200 as she says shes heard of no issues with the eNV200 system.

I cant for the life of me figure why LG Chem would tolerate their batteries been cooled by an eNV200 style mess up of an under engineered system.

What input would LG Chem have into ensuring the cooling system would be fit for purpose????.

DrPhilG

peposhi wrote: »

I am actually hoping the L60 would take my breath away

It may need to take your breath away and divert it around its sweltering battery pack as an additional cooling method.

Shefwedfan

DrPhilG wrote: »

It may need to take your breath away and divert it around its sweltering battery pack as an additional cooling method.

No need for heated seats

peposhi

unkel wrote: »

How? It's going to look exactly the same as the L40

Hopefully with a lot more range and no fast charging issues.

I actually love the L40
Would not go for it though since the L30 still
does the job so far

Silent Running

KCross wrote: »

I think its slightly different but maybe the Ioniq gurus know more.

I think the Ioniq is just a fan blowing ambient air over the pack?

Transport Evolved are reporting that the new Leaf with LG Chem pack will blow air pre-cooled by the a/c over the pack... so not just ambient air.


Not sure if the Ioniq involves the a/c in its cooling or not?

No AC involvement in the cooling of the battery in the Ioniq. Just ambient air drawn in to the pack and expelled.

I read that the air is drawn in from the cabin and expelled into the rear offside wheel arch, but when I put my hand in front of the vent in the car, I'm sure I feel the air moving into the cabin, not out. I can also smell a warm cardboard type smell when it's running. Not an unpleasant smell at all, by the way.

ELM327

Ioniq is blowing non ac air on the battery.

However due to higher heat buildup and internal resistance this solution will not work on a 60kWh pack (and may not work on a 40kWh pack).
Hence why the konas have liquid cooling.

Zenith74

ELM327 wrote: »

However due to higher heat buildup and internal resistance this solution will not work on a 60kWh pack (and may not work on a 40kWh pack).
Hence why the konas have liquid cooling.

I think we're all disappointed there won't be water cooling given we know that would solve the problem, but I don't think we should be just to conclusions on what Nissan have planned for the L60. Granted their history is not good here, but we don't know how their air cooling is being done and there are some very effective air-cooling technologies out there. Just think we need to be careful not to jump to complete doom and gloom conclusions before we know a little more.