Would you like to attend a housing protest?

Ray Palmer

Some awful lies and fanciful thoughts being spouted here. The suggestion that the government is actively forcing pries up is just nonsense. A complete conspiracy idea with absolutely no evidence of. Pointing to house prices going up is not evidence and a statement saying they are doing this is not a theory as it needs evidence.

The suggestion that single parents don't affect housing supply is just wrong. If a couple break up and have joint custody and getting social housing it effects supply. If there is just 1 child involved each is entitled to a 2 bed place. While difficult to find the places now it doesn't change the fact there are a lot of people already doing this.

There are rent restrictions and anybody saying there are not is just lying. They might think they are being smart because people have broken the restrictions but that is like saying there are no speed limits because people break sped limits. It isn't smart

The government will never take control of all rentals nor provide zero profit loans by restricting banks. The public wouldn't want it, it would be illegal under EU law, collapse the economy etc... It isn't even vaguely possible and pipe dream.

There are not a few million homeless in Ireland

Danjamin1

Ray Palmer wrote: »

The government will never take control of all rentals nor provide zero profit loans by restricting banks. The public wouldn't want it, it would be illegal under EU law, collapse the economy etc... It isn't even vaguely possible and pipe dream.

There are not a few million homeless in Ireland

There's already an option to get a government backed mortgage from your local council, albeit I presume it's granted on a case by case basis with peoples circumstances taken into account.

The government are not purposely inflating house prices, the market economy is what's doing that, it's basic supply & demand. Same with rent, I agree it's gone to ridiculous levels but until there are more units available to comfortably satisfy the demand then you're going to have people outbidding each other.

I'm sure it's been said already but people do realise there's other places to live in the country other than Dublin right? I work with people who commute from Louth, Kilkenny, Cavan, Leitrim, Meath, Kildare & Tyrone. This crap of being entitled to housing in the specific area you desire is nonsense.

Saying there are a few million affected by the housing crisis is ridiculous. I bought my house at a mutiple of what my parents paid for theirs. House price inflation has risen excessively over the last 30. Just because the market value of my home is higher than what I would have paid in the late 80's/early 90's doesn't mean I'm affected by the housing crisis.

Squatter

klaaaz wrote: »

Do you normally throw abuse at posters who speak sense?

Of course not.

But I fail to see what that rhetorical question has to do with you, bearing in mind the absolute tosh that you are regurgitating onto this thread.

klaaaz wrote: »

It's great that you have a privileged position in society .....

Have I?

Old diesel

_Brian wrote: »

Often half the rental income taken as tax.
How is that an attractive model for landlords.

And now the go to answer from housing crisis agencies is “overstay after landlord has requested vacancy as he will never get you out”

I know two guys who were long term multiple landlords who sold off properties as they were being taxed so much on the income, compounded with excessive damage after tenants.

There will be no functionality in the rental market until it is an attractive proposition for landlords to hold and rent properties. Somehow it became a dirty idea for landlords to be profitable and the government were lobbied to turn the screw on them. The result has been droves of houses lost to the rental sector, where I live there are a mere fraction of houses to rent that there once was, when one comes up there is a scramble for it.
Other business people can be profitable, but not landlords. Imagine telling a filling station owner that the revenue from sales would be all taxed as income and likely loose half to tax, think about it, it’s an insane situation.

They can make a profit for sure.

The problem is that people see ridiculously pie in the sky rents and judgement is made on that.

4 things that are a hurdle for landlords.

1) their ability to advocate how things should be is actually woeful. By woeful I mean it's far too easy to make a judgement that what we need is to reduce reliance on random landlords on daft.ie and crank up co op housing, crank up the Vienna model of housing.

2) should renting a home be a source of full time income OR should it be a sideline. That has implications for the rent required.

3) Lifetime renting requires different thinking to the old school of well you rent for a short period before buying etc.

4) how do we address a landlord paying too much for a property and then requiring an excess rent to cover costs.

For me Landlords would do far better with their arguments if they develop an arguement that taking certain measures means the landlord can deliver a home that currently makes a loss at 1800 euros - for a PROFIT at 1400 euros per month.

But landlords don't want to even hear about the word reduction in rents.

But yet reductions in rent is actually needed.

What housing needs is a Ryanair style moment - where someone like Michael O Leary did with air travel - delivers solutions that deliver out of the box affordability.

With O Leary - using the same standard of Boeing as the 400 quid to London green plane chaps - we started a thing where now no one pays 400 quid to go to London.

Today for a one way flight I can book London with Aer Lingus for between 32 and 50 quid depending on what Irish airport and London Airports im using.

You might not go to O Leary extremes on housing but what O Leary did with flights is a useful lesson for housing imo.

What is needed isn't making housing attractive to investors by allowing them increase rent further but instead reducing the per month cost of provision

Could we not use our extensive train system to transport all the poor people from Dublin? If there's too many, we could probably extend the track from, for instance, Westport to Achill Island straight into their new homes?

Heuston, we have a solution!

realdanbreen

ygolometsipe wrote: »

So would you attend another protest?
Time to put the goverment under proper pressure.

Will Glen Hansard or Jim Sheridan or any other 'concerned' celebs be there?

SterlingArcher

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Socialist claptrap. I’ve no doubt that you believe in this, but it doesn’t work in reality. By all means protest in whatever you believe. But don’t expect everyone else in the country to share in those beliefs.

Not to worry. people that spew this kind of nonsense. Are the first that their eutopian vision chews up and spits out when it inevitably goes wrong.

Ray Palmer

Old diesel wrote: »

But landlords don't want to even hear about the word reduction in rents.

But yet reductions in rent is actually needed.

I am all for reducing rents I am not for a reduction in income. The government could easily reinstate tax rebate for tenants. They could reduce tax on landlords and devise a system where that is passed on to the tenants.

Costs went up on landlords when rent was going down. That is what the government did instead. That created a loss that was going to be recouped, They were told this would happen and ignored it as a problem down the road. We got down the road and the government added more expenses to landlords. The only outcome was going to be higher rents. Any €1 increase in expenses takes €2 in increased in rent to recoup.

Incredibly poor support and protection from non paying tenants.

The public don't want to hear about protections for landlords but that is what is needed to reduce the risk that does have a huge impact on rent prices. Three months is the longest a tent should be allowed stay with out paying rent. Never heard a single valid argument why it should be any longer.

Berserker

realdanbreen wrote: »

Will Glen Hansard or Jim Sheridan or any other 'concerned' celebs be there?

It's Christmas, so they might grace the stage with their presence pop round to show support for their working class brothers and sisters.

Birneybau

A massive but worthwhile read:

https://www.theguardian.com/cities/2018/nov/29/empty-dublin-housing-crisis-airbnb-homelessness-landlords#comment-123135955

Old diesel

I'd happily go to a housing protest.

It's a massive issue and needs as many numbers on the streets as possible to send a message to government

Berserker

Old diesel wrote: »

I'd happily go to a housing protest.

It's a massive issue and needs as many numbers on the streets as possible to send a message to government

What message is that?

MarkHenderson

Old diesel wrote: »

I'd happily go to a housing protest.

It's a massive issue and needs as many numbers on the streets as possible to send a message to government

Iv'e attended several but the turnout was really disappointing tbh.

weldoninhio

realdanbreen wrote: »

Will Glen Hansard or Jim Sheridan or any other 'concerned' celebs be there?

Anyone got an album or book out??

Ush1

Old diesel wrote: »

I'd happily go to a housing protest.

It's a massive issue and needs as many numbers on the streets as possible to send a message to government

Do you think the government aren't aware or do you have a solution?

Old diesel

Berserker wrote: »

What message is that?

That housing needs change - it needs sorting out.

Fine Gael won't take notice of an 18 page boards thread.

They will have to take notice of 20 k people matching outside the dail.

weldoninhio

Old diesel wrote: »

That housing needs change - it needs sorting out.

Fine Gael won't take notice of an 18 page boards thread.

They will have to take notice of 20 k people matching outside the dail.

If housing could be solved, just by politicians seeing 20k outside Leinster House, why wouldn't they just do it, then call an election and they'd be guaranteed re-election as one of the most popular governments in history??

Old diesel

Old diesel wrote: »

That housing needs change - it needs sorting out.

Fine Gael won't take notice of an 18 page boards thread.

They will have to take notice of 20 k people matching outside the dail.

What changes do you want? Exactly?

Suggest a policy. A change.

The_Brood

incentsitive wrote: »

If it was organised with the sole focus of highlighting the plight of young working people paying a fortune in rent, wanting to buy apartment or house, then yes.
If it was organised by the "I'm entitled to" brigade, no thanks.

Has this question been answered? I also very very much would want to attend for the former, but not the latter.

Old diesel

Old diesel wrote: »

I'd happily go to a housing protest.

It's a massive issue and needs as many numbers on the streets as possible to send a message to government

What is that message?

Berserker

Old diesel wrote: »

That housing needs change - it needs sorting out.

Fine Gael won't take notice of an 18 page boards thread.

They will have to take notice of 20 k people matching outside the dail.

I'm not fan of FG or any of the mainstream political parties in this country but I think it's unfair and then some, to suggest that they are not aware of the problem. I sincerely doubt that there is any other single issue they spend more time discussing.

realdanbreen

Old diesel wrote: »

I'd happily go to a housing protest.

It's a massive issue and needs as many numbers on the streets as possible to send a message to government

OK so if the government message is yes we can fix it but it will mean a 1% increase in taxes then all the 'concerned' protesters say fuk that and vote out the government. The hypocracy is mindboggling!

Seth Brundle

Old diesel wrote: »

That housing needs change - it needs sorting out.

Fine Gael won't take notice of an 18 page boards thread.

They will have to take notice of 20 k people matching outside the dail.

What needs to change with housing?
What might Fine Gael (or if it were the case, any other party in government) do differently once they see the 20k protesters?

facehugger99

Deleted User wrote: »

What is that message?

'Give me a free gaff.'

padd b1975

Old diesel wrote: »

That housing needs change - it needs sorting out.

Fine Gael won't take notice of an 18 page boards thread.

They will have to take notice of 20 k people matching outside the dail.

Dàil doesn't sit on a Saturday Chief.

Old diesel

Ush1 wrote: »

Do you think the government aren't aware or do you have a solution?

Well it seems Vienna have a nice set up.

Just looking at an article from 2017....

Over 60 percent of citizens inn Vienna live in either municipal owned or publically subsidised homes.

8 out of 10 flats are financed under Viennas public subsidy scheme.

Sounds like a plan to me.

Co op housing as delivered by Hugh Brennan is another option and perhaps the public subsidy idea of Vienna could be deployed to address the expensive land issue.

With assistence from the local authority in terms of waiving the development levies and ultra cheap plots of land.

Hugh Brennan has been able to deliver 3 bed A2 BER rated homes for 170 k.

Mortgages for these are claimed to be 850 a month.

Now you might ask how are we going to pay for it.....

I'd like to turn that question around 360 degrees and ask - how are we going to pay 2,000 euro a month rent.

How are we going to pay the costs social, enviromentally and quality of life of commuting in a diesel car from Carlow to Dublin 5 days a week.

Now the other option is that if a companies staff all commute in from Regional towns like Mullingar - then you look at moving the company to Mullingar having deployed good broadband into Mullingar if that's needed.

Getting someone to get out the digger and dig up to lay fibre in Mullingar seems potentially more doable then getting thousands of random daft.ie suppliers of accommodation to buy into been part of sustainable solutions.

We could even set up meeting spaces in Dublin so that if a Client from Japan cant handle going out to Mullingar he can have the meetings with Mullingar personnal in Dublin.

Ush1

Old diesel wrote: »

Well it seems Vienna have a nice set up.

Just looking at an article from 2017....

Over 60 percent of citizens inn Vienna live in either municipal owned or publically subsidised homes.

8 out of 10 flats are financed under Viennas public subsidy scheme.

Sounds like a plan to me.

I don't have access to the article you are referencing but 80% social housing in Dublin sounds insane and costly to me.

Old diesel wrote: »

Co op housing as delivered by Hugh Brennan is another option and perhaps the public subsidy idea of Vienna could be deployed to address the expensive land issue.

With assistence from the local authority in terms of waiving the development levies and ultra cheap plots of land.

Hugh Brennan has been able to deliver 3 bed A2 BER rated homes for 170 k.

Mortgages for these are claimed to be 850 a month.

Now you might ask how are we going to pay for it.....

No no, I don't need to anymore, it's the Sinn Fein/PPP/AAA money tree of course!

Old diesel wrote: »

I'd like to turn that question around 360 degrees and ask - how are we going to pay 2,000 euro a month rent.

How are we going to pay the costs social, enviromentally and quality of life of commuting in a diesel car from Carlow to Dublin 5 days a week.

Now the other option is that if a companies staff all commute in from Regional towns like Mullingar - then you look at moving the company to Mullingar having deployed good broadband into Mullingar if that's needed.

Getting someone to get out the digger and dig up to lay fibre in Mullingar seems potentially more doable then getting thousands of random daft.ie suppliers of accommodation to buy into been part of sustainable solutions.

We could even set up meeting spaces in Dublin so that if a Client from Japan cant handle going out to Mullingar he can have the meetings with Mullingar personnal in Dublin.

You pay the cost because life isn't fair. You are not going to be just handed a perfect life with everything you want. Where and how you live and where your job is etc..

Companies set up in Dublin not just for infrastructure but also for access to the largest workforce with various skillsets. Cities are cities for a reason and the same reason people are attracted is the same reason companies are attracted.

Old diesel

Topgear on Dave wrote: »

What changes do you want? Exactly?

Suggest a policy. A change.

Lets test out the current housing nonsense shall we.

Wexford builder Michael Bennett delivered Passive house 3 bed for 190 k in Enniscorthy. This believe it or not is actually for Enniscorthy relatively expensive.

Total bargain by Dublin standards mind you.

Now in Dublin you might pay 1800 euros a month to some random daft.ie guy.

In 10 years time you've paid daft.ie guy 216,000 euros in rent - IF rent stays the same.

In 20 years it will be 432,000

In 30 years it will be 648,000

This is with no increase in rent at all - which highlights that rent caps of 4 percent shouldnt be the big oh my god issue theyou are.

Now if we take the Hugh Brennan claimed 850 a month mortgage for his co op housing and run the figures in a similar way

At 10 years we are at 102,000 euros.

At 20 years we are at 204,000 euros.

At 30 years we are at 306,000 euros.

Mortgage rates do vary as interest rates jump up and down. However there is always a link back to the original figure to buy the Hugh Brennan home of 170 k.

Unlike the current rental value today per month of a home a landlord bought for 170 k some years back

Saving 348,000 euros

Mad_maxx

I think the situation here re_ young workers is hugely problematic but it's a big NO from me as regards joining a housing protest, I follow many of the architects of these kind of action groups and to the last man and woman, they are open borders far left ideologues who would be agitating if two bed apartments were 700 per month in rathmines.

They want nationalisation of all housing.

Seth Brundle

Old diesel wrote: »

Lets test out the current housing nonsense shall we.

Wexford builder Michael Bennett delivered Passive house 3 bed for 190 k in Enniscorthy. This believe it or not is actually for Enniscorthy relatively expensive.

Total bargain by Dublin standards mind you.

Now in Dublin you might pay 1800 euros a month to some random daft.ie guy.

In 10 years time you've paid daft.ie guy 216,000 euros in rent - IF rent stays the same.

In 20 years it will be 432,000

In 30 years it will be 648,000

This is with no increase in rent at all - which highlights that rent caps of 4 percent shouldnt be the big oh my god issue theyou are.

Now if we take the Hugh Brennan claimed 850 a month mortgage for his co op housing and run the figures in a similar way

At 10 years we are at 102,000 euros.

At 20 years we are at 204,000 euros.

At 30 years we are at 306,000 euros.

Mortgage rates do vary as interest rates jump up and down. However there is always a link back to the original figure to buy the Hugh Brennan home of 170 k.

Unlike the current rental value today per month of a home a landlord bought for 170 k some years back

Saving 348,000 euros

If it's so wonderful, why are so many landlords leaving the business?

Old diesel

Seth Brundle wrote: »

If it's so wonderful, why are so many landlords leaving the business?

I'm illustrating what's wrong with the current housing model.

Let's look at this abother way.

30 years at 1800 a month to landlord is 648 k.

30 years of 850 mortgage for Hugh Brennan Co Op house 306 k.

What is the benefit to me of giving the landlord an extra 342 k over 30 years.

I accept the mortgage means debt.

But at 648 k over 30 years to avoid debt - I'd be inclined to take my chances with 170 k debt.

I would also take the view that if we can save 342 k over 30 years - then theres a case for Government to say right - we can step in to help you pay 850 a month mortgage if something goes wrong.

Because if you can't pay 850 a month mortgage and market rate is 2000 for rent - it is cheaper for government to help you pay 850 rather then 2,000.

The costing in long term is all wrong at the current high rates.

You are literally paying the full purchase price to the landlord and screwing your finances to do it.

ThunbergsAreGo

I dont want to

Danjamin1

How much money could the government bring in by charging people for their water instead of subsidising it out of general taxation? If that money could be put to better use towards something like housing the government might be able to do something more to alleviate the pressure on the housing market.

padd b1975

Old diesel wrote: »

Lets test out the current housing nonsense shall we.

Wexford builder Michael Bennett delivered Passive house 3 bed for 190 k in Enniscorthy. This believe it or not is actually for Enniscorthy relatively expensive.

Total bargain by Dublin standards mind you.

Now in Dublin you might pay 1800 euros a month to some random daft.ie guy.

In 10 years time you've paid daft.ie guy 216,000 euros in rent - IF rent stays the same.

In 20 years it will be 432,000

In 30 years it will be 648,000

This is with no increase in rent at all - which highlights that rent caps of 4 percent shouldnt be the big oh my god issue theyou are.

Now if we take the Hugh Brennan claimed 850 a month mortgage for his co op housing and run the figures in a similar way

At 10 years we are at 102,000 euros.

At 20 years we are at 204,000 euros.

At 30 years we are at 306,000 euros.

Mortgage rates do vary as interest rates jump up and down. However there is always a link back to the original figure to buy the Hugh Brennan home of 170 k.

Unlike the current rental value today per month of a home a landlord bought for 170 k some years back

Saving 348,000 euros

Does Daft.ie guy not pay any tax on the rent received?

Old diesel

padd b1975 wrote: »

Does Daft.ie guy not pay any tax on the rent received?

Yes.

But what I want to know is how much will come of the 648 k over 30 years if landlord tax was heavily reduced.

realdanbreen

Danjamin1 wrote: »

How much money could the government bring in by charging people for their water instead of subsidising it out of general taxation? If that money could be put to better use towards something like housing the government might be able to do something more to alleviate the pressure on the housing market.

A water charge! now there's a novel idea that should go well

Berserker

Danjamin1 wrote: »

How much money could the government bring in by charging people for their water instead of subsidising it out of general taxation? If that money could be put to better use towards something like housing the government might be able to do something more to alleviate the pressure on the housing market.

Water charges ....

Ray Palmer

Old diesel wrote: »

Yes.

But what I want to know is how much will come of the 648 k over 30 years if landlord tax was heavily reduced.

Why do you care about it given you don't take it into consideration in the first place. You have no mortgage calculation, insurance, prtb or any other expenses. The person renting is getting more than the person who bought as they don't have appliances to buy and maintain or any other costs with owning a property. You conveniently left all of that out.

No consideration for location which is a huge issue with rent and buying. People can't buy in many locations because nothing is for sale but they can rent there instead.

Talk of tenants paying landlord's mortgages is true due to tax. On a basic level rent would need to be double any mortgage for that to be true. Given current laws small time landlords won't invest and REITs won't buy individual houses so restricting supply further.

realdanbreen

realdanbreen wrote: »

A water charge! now there's a novel idea that should go well

The water charges, now there was a REAL protest :-)

Most voters would rather put up with the homeless problem because it doesn't affect them.

Seth Brundle

Old diesel wrote: »

I'm illustrating what's wrong with the current housing model.

Let's look at this abother way.

...snip

No let's look at it from a realistic perspective because it's a very important factor: why are so many landlords leaving the business if so much money can be made?

Wheeliebin30

Topgear on Dave wrote: »

The water charges, now there was a REAL protest :-)

Most voters would rather put up with the homeless problem because it doesn't affect them.

There isn’t a homeless problem, that’s why people aren’t out like the water charges.

mvl

Deleted User wrote: »

Could we not use our extensive train system to transport all the poor people from Dublin? If there's too many, we could probably extend the track from, for instance, Westport to Achill Island straight into their new homes?

Heuston, we have a solution!

- investing in high speed rail sooner may be a solution !

Old diesel

Seth Brundle wrote: »

No let's look at it from a realistic perspective because it's a very important factor: why are so many landlords leaving the business if so much money can be made?

I never claimed the landlord would make 648 k profit.

The model is no longer fit for purpose it's hopeless.

Landlords are leaving because of tax, the system failures in terms of it been hard to get rid of problem tenants.

And regulatory challenges.

These could be fixed - but we'd still have a model of rental thats flawed.

We can't build a housing system around totally random people making totally random decisions for random reasons.

Cost transparency is vital going forward - so we can strike a balance between allowing Landlords to make their profit while ensuring that tenants needs for affordability are also met.

Because tenants have needs too.

Costs need adjusting down for landlords with govt support.

Tax needs to be bought down....

Cost per month needs to be lower - so finance restructuring needs to be delivered so that the mortgage payments are low enough to allow a profit each month.

The problem with that is - the mortgage period is extended.

And the bad tenant risk needs minimising with fast tracking of evictions for breach of lease or property damage.

The_Brood

But it's absurd that water charges, a small amount extra in bills, would stir more indignation than back-breaking, outrageous rents in Dublin, which is the reality.

Wheeliebin30

Wheeliebin30 wrote: »

There isn’t a homeless problem, that’s why people aren’t out like the water charges.

There is a huge housing problem. Rents are gone bananas.

rob316

The_Brood wrote: »

But it's absurd that water charges, a small amount extra in bills, would stir more indignation than back-breaking, outrageous rents in Dublin, which is the reality.

Water charges affected everyone. USC is the won we should be pounding the streets about, ****ing scam, but hey anyone who is paying it is working and doesn't have time to go to these protests.

Wheeliebin30

Topgear on Dave wrote: »

There is a huge housing problem. Rents are gone bananas.

Hence me using the word homeless.

Wheeliebin30

rob316 wrote: »

Water charges affected everyone. USC is the won we should be pounding the streets about, ****ing scam, but hey anyone who is paying it is working and doesn't have time to go to these protests.

We have a 20 billion a year welfare bill.

Tell me that you would cut back on so we can abolish usc?

The_Brood

The_Brood wrote: »

But it's absurd that water charges, a small amount extra in bills, would stir more indignation than back-breaking, outrageous rents in Dublin, which is the reality.

Not really. Water charges were sending a bill to every house in the nation.

Rents only affect a much smaller proportion of people, many of whom see it only as temporary and will move on to owning at some stage.

Simple_Simone

Topgear on Dave wrote: »

Not really. Water charges were sending a bill to every house in the nation.

With the exception of the 180,000 households in the nation who had their own private water supply and septic tanks so were already paying for their supply of potable water and waste water disposal.