eCars get €10m to develop 150kW charging network

ELM327

unkel wrote: »

More than 100km you mean I presume?

Naas to Waterford is a good 140km without CCS chargers. Worse going from Dublin to the north west until recently when a few CHAdeMOs were replaced with triple heads

Yes, more than 100km.


There's nowhere on that route that is more than 100km from a CCS charger though. EG it's 140km between chargers but the most you can be away from a charger is 70km. 140km is a pretty manageable trip for most CCS cars anyway.

EDIT: Looking at ecars map that's now the biggest CCS hole in the country.

DrPhilG

unkel wrote: »

Worse going from Dublin to the north west until recently when a few CHAdeMOs were replaced with triple heads

Which ones were replaced? I think Monaghan was one, not sure where else?

ELM327

DrPhilG wrote: »

Which ones were replaced? I think Monaghan was one, not sure where else?

Monaghan, Ballaghadereen, longford, lagheys were all replaced recently?

KCross

I see eCars have a survey out asking for opinions on charging for charging... unit or time based, overstay fees etc etc.

Everyone else get that survey request?

Mickeroo

Yep, just completed it there and was hopping on here to mention it too.

Soarer

I wonder if there's a way that they can charge more money to PHEVs for the fast chargers?

KCross

Soarer wrote: »

I wonder if there's a way that they can charge more money to PHEVs for the fast chargers?

Just auto disconnect when the charge rate drops below a certain rate.... it will become useless to PHEV's then.

liamog

Soarer wrote: »

I wonder if there's a way that they can charge more money to PHEVs for the fast chargers?

Charge & Drive in Norway charge 2.5nok/min for 50kW DC which is around 26c/min. It's the only logical way to discourage overstays, and use of the correct charger for the job, whilst still allowing emergency usage.

Black_Knight

No sign of a survey for me.
Did spot this after a google:
http://www.irishevowners.ie/esb-fcp-charging-fees-survey-summary/

jusmeig

I got it.

I answered "Charge per minute" - This should help the PHEV situation, they pay more for less and might charge at home as they don't "need" to use the public network like a BEV on a long run.
It will also help to stop people farming charge points
(Woman in Salin's train station I hope u are reading!!!)

Introducing a heafty overstay fine after a grace period was also suggested.
This is the only time I have ever welcomed charging!!!

zg3409

Email ecars@esb.ie before Wednesday29th of May 2019 to get a link to the survey. Survey runs for a week from today.

https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=2344699052235052&id=159063610798618&ref=page_internal&__tn__=%2As%2As-R

Sabre Man

jusmeig wrote: »

I answered "Charge per minute" - This should help the PHEV situation, they pay more for less and might charge at home as they don't "need" to use the public network like a BEV on a long run.

That would penalize eg. a Leaf user who needs more than 80%, which is required in some cases.

jusmeig

Sabre Man wrote: »

That would penalize eg. a Leaf user who needs more than 80%, which is required in some cases.

How so?
You just pay for the time spent occupying the charger, you can stay and charge to 90 if you want.

samih

Sabre Man wrote: »

That would penalize eg. a Leaf user who needs more than 80%, which is required in some cases.

It's the "select the right tool for the job", i.e. if you need to rely on public network for regular driving the pricing will incentify you to get a better tool.

For the occasional trip having to pay extra to make it to the next charger sounds fair enough compromise over the expense to change of car that otherwise suits all your normal trips. Kind of pay an extra tenner a few times a month/year to save yourself 500 a month for a car loan for a new LEAF. But if you need to spend extra tenner once or twice a day every work day it makes sense to change your car to something more suitable and not to treat the public charger as you personal charger.

creedp

jusmeig wrote: »

How so?
You just pay for the time spent occupying the charger, you can stay and charge to 90 if you want.

Much better to charge a premium for overstayers or when the charge rate falls below a certain level. That will ensure EV's owners whose cars have slower charge rates aren't unfairly disadvantaged compared to those with cars that can charge at a faster rate and therefore are advocating for a per minute charge rate in order to gain an advantage. This is an EV forum for all owners after all

creedp

samih wrote: »

It's the "select the right tool for the job", i.e. if you need to rely on public network for regular driving the pricing will incentify you to get a better tool.

For the occasional trip having to pay extra to make it to the next charger sounds fair enough compromise over the expense to change of car that otherwise suits all your normal trips. Kind of pay an extra tenner a few times a month/year to save yourself 500 a month for a car loan for a new LEAF. But if you need to spend extra tenner once or twice a day every work day it makes sense to change your car to something more suitable and not to treat the public charger as you personal charger.

TBF there's a big difference between hogging a charge point to squeeze the last electron into your battery especially if you are a local trying to save a few cent on your electricity and an EV driver who is simply trying to get a reasonable top-up to his/her destination. No problem dis-incentivising the former but don't really see the point of disadvantaging the latter.

jusmeig

creedp wrote: »

Much better to charge a premium for overstayers or when the charge rate falls below a certain level. That will ensure EV's owners whose cars have slower charge rates aren't unfairly disadvantaged compared to those with cars that can charge at a faster rate and therefore are advocating for a per minute charge rate in order to gain an advantage. This is an EV forum for all owners after all

This was not an option ^^^. It was per kwh or time spent.
If this could be done (stop charge once rate drops) I would agree 100%.
Only issue with this is that it would be new and unexpected behavior for current users, so you would have chaos.
Id not use a 50kw charger unless my car could fast charge.
What cars have slower charge rates, even the 24kwh leaf can fast charge?

samih

creedp wrote: »

Much better to charge a premium for overstayers or when the charge rate falls below a certain level. That will ensure EV's owners whose cars have slower charge rates aren't unfairly disadvantaged compared to those with cars that can charge at a faster rate and therefore are advocating for a per minute charge rate in order to gain an advantage. This is an EV forum for all owners after all

Overstayers will pay the same amount per minute for the resourse their overstaying will hog. If you car charges quickly and a lot fair enough at it means you won't be using the limited resource as often as a slowly charging car with a small battery.

If the charge is based on the energy taken in it encourages PHEVs to continue to use MSA chargers which is not a good thing. Per minute charging ensures that you disconnect the minute you make it to somewhere cheaper to charge.

Sabre Man

creedp wrote: »

TBF there's a big difference between hogging a charge point to squeeze the last electron into your battery especially if you are a local trying to save a few cent on your electricity and an EV driver who is simply trying to get a reasonable top-up to his/her destination. No problem dis-incentivising the former but don't really see the point of disadvantaging the latter.

As long as it costs more to use public chargers than home chargers, nobody will use public chargers more than they have to.

creedp

Sabre Man wrote: »

As long as it costs more to use public chargers than home chargers, nobody will use public chargers more than they have to.

And if the public charging infrastructure was better people would not incentivised to try and fill their battery to the max at a much slower charge rate. They would simply unplug and move to the next charge site and charge as necessary.

Personally I don't think current EV owners should be disadvantaged by this new charging regime when they have also been equally affected by the freeloaders even those with spanking new EVs that charge to 100% at local FCPs to save a few bob on the leccy bill. Just because the Govt got away with fleecing pre 2008 car owners when favouring new diesel cars doesn't mean ecars should go down the same road although now that the 'Green Wave' is back watch this space.

Most of the freeloading problem will be removed by charging a rate per kwh which exceeds the domestic day / night rate.

liamog

creedp wrote: »

And if the public charging infrastructure was better people would not incentivised to try and fill their battery to the max at a much slower charge rate. They would simply unplug and move to the next charge site and charge as necessary.

Personally I don't think current EV owners should be disadvantaged by this new charging regime when they have also been equally affected by the freeloaders even those with spanking new EVs that charge to 100% at local FCPs to save a few bob on the leccy bill. Just because the Govt got away with fleecing pre 2008 car owners when favouring new diesel cars doesn't mean ecars should go down the same road although now that the 'Green Wave' is back watch this space.

Most of the freeloading problem will be removed by charging a rate per kwh which exceeds the domestic day / night rate.

Instead of inventing the wheel, let's look at what works in Norway, the market with the most EVs. Their networks charge different per minute fees based on the speed of the charger. I've watched many of Bjorns videos and its very rare he comes across chargers being overused and/or cars slow charging.

samih

creedp wrote: »

And if the public charging infrastructure was better people would not incentivised to try and fill their battery to the max at a much slower charge rate. They would simply unplug and move to the next charge site and charge as necessary.

Personally I don't think current EV owners should be disadvantaged by this new charging regime when they have also been equally affected by the freeloaders even those with spanking new EVs that charge to 100% at local FCPs to save a few bob on the leccy bill. Just because the Govt got away with fleecing pre 2008 car owners when favouring new diesel cars doesn't mean ecars should go down the same road although now that the 'Green Wave' is back watch this space.

Most of the freeloading problem will be removed by charging a rate per kwh which exceeds the domestic day / night rate.

What remains is the PHEV owners that don't have their own charging station as per kWh rate would probably the cheaper than per litre rate. And also some BEV drivers without their own chargers would continue to happily park all day in a public charger at per kWh rate. If it cost 0.20 per minute at DC charger they wouldn't after the initial 12 EUR/h shock.

September1

Per kWh charges would mean that cars with DC chargers would be fine to use fast AC as great alternative to slow chargers.

liamog

It mostly seems that early Leaf drivers are the ones in favour of per kWh.
I've heard cries of "it's unfair because my 2011 Leaf charges at slow speeds, and I have a small battery".
We need to target the network at the 3,500 cars sold since 2017 and the future, not the 1,600 from 2016 and before.

KCross

My response to the survey was to have both time and kWh based billing but no connection fees as that encourages staying as long as possible to "get my monies worth"!

The more power you pull the more you should be charged... thats obvious enough.

And have a time limit so that we dont have people staying on the charger until 100%.... the idea being that there will be enough chargers on the ground that it makes more sense to disconnect before the charge rate tapers too much and get yourself on the road to the next charger if you need it.... the only reason to be worried about a time limit is if there continue to be queues at the chargers.... that should not be the case (based on the plan they've put forward).

So, charge per kWh and have a time limit. If you have an old Leaf it charges to 80% in 30 or so mins anyway so it shouldnt be an issue.

I also suggested that the chargers auto disconnect below 15kW... again to stop people charging to 100%.

Whatever system is put in place there will be disgruntled people here. That's a certainty!

creedp

samih wrote: »

What remains is the PHEV owners that don't have their own charging station as per kWh rate would probably the cheaper than per litre rate. And also some BEV drivers without their own chargers would continue to happily park all day in a public charger at per kWh rate. If it cost 0.20 per minute at DC charger they wouldn't after the initial 12 EUR/h shock.

We are talking about FCP's here. Is there currently a problem with BEVs being left all day at FCPs? FCP's should only be located in service stations so reducing any incentive to sit at such a site all day or even for an extended period of time. In any case I did say that any charging regime should incorporate either an overstay charge (could be set at 30 min or 45 minutes or 60 minutes) and /or a cut off function when charge rate falls below a predefined rate which, again in IMO, would be the fairest approach for all EV drivers

samih

creedp wrote: »

We are talking about FCP's here. Is there currently a problem with BEVs being left all day at FCPs? FCP's should only be located in service stations so reducing any incentive to sit at such a site all day or even for an extended period of time. In any case I did say that any charging regime should incorporate either an overstay charge (could be set at 30 min or 45 minutes or 60 minutes) and /or a cut off function when charge rate falls below a predefined rate which, again in IMO, would be the fairest approach for all EV drivers

There have been (hopefully limited) cases of people abandoning their cars for a full day at MSA DC chargers while taking public transport rest of the way to work.

The electricity is not the expensive part of a DC but the charger and the waiting itself so so makes sense to charge per time used. As I said before if you regularly require public fast charging due to for example too small battery for your daily needs this incentives you to invest on a more suitable car saving both you and the fellow EV drivers time. Then on those out of ordinary trips you can decide yourself if you want to wait 60 minutes at 0.20 a min to get the battery topped up if you really need to or vacate the charger after 20 minutes when your charge rate slows down and then do another 20 minute stop later on and get extra free kWh in the process while using the chargers for 20 minutes less time.

liamog

KCross wrote: »

I also suggested that the chargers auto disconnect below 15kW... again to stop people charging to 100%.

Whatever system is put in place there will be disgruntled people here. That's a certainty!

The only reason I'd be against the auto disconnect is that one time I had to use the FastAC to charge for 30 mins to get enough to make it to the next rapid due to the CCS being out. I think its better for it to be available and expensive than software blocked. I'd rather pay €7.50 to charge at 6.6kW for 30mins and get 21km of range than get a flatbed to the next charger.

KCross

liamog wrote: »

The only reason I'd be against the auto disconnect is that one time I had to use the FastAC to charge for 30 mins to get enough to make it to the next rapid due to the CCS being out. I think its better for it to be available and expensive than software blocked. I'd rather pay €7.50 to charge at 6.6kW for 30mins and get 21km of range than get a flatbed to the next charger.

I understand that but you are basing it on a fear from todays infrastructure.

Surely, and also considering your own comment a few posts back, we should be looking towards the future not the past and basing our decisions on there being plenty chargers available at each site and many sites?

We shouldnt allow bad behavior to support fringe cases.

liamog

KCross wrote: »

I understand that but you are basing it on a fear from todays infrastructure.

Surely, and also considering your own comment a few posts back, we should be looking towards the future not the past and basing our decisions on there being plenty chargers available at each site and many sites?

We shouldnt allow bad behavior to support fringe cases.

True, but I'm in favor of a time only fee anyway, the charger failure would be a fringe benefit anyway. I have no problem with someone charging to 100% if they are paying through the nose for it. That's their own mathematically challenged approach to motoring!