eCars get €10m to develop 150kW charging network

KCross

liamog wrote: »

True, but I'm in favor of a time only fee anyway, the charger failure would be a fringe benefit anyway. I have no problem with someone charging to 100% if they are paying through the nose for it. That's their own mathematically challenged approach to motoring!

I’d rather that mathematically challenged individual have the decision made for them and free up the charger for people who need it.

If they want to get to 100% give them an AC charger next to the rapids for that, if needs be.

Kramer

From another thread where unkel said he submitted a 50c/min charge......

Sure why stop at 50c/min? Wouldn't €1/min be even more of a disincentive for locals? If you rarely or never use the public charging network - why then propose charges to hammer all that are dependent on public chargers? People with no driveways, people who regularly travel long distances in their EVs?

With extortionate charging like 50c/min, no one will utilise these chargers, there will be no incentive for a private operator to enter the market & it will ultimately be detrimental to EV adoption.

I despair when an EV owner suggests pricing like this - 50c/min, ridiculous :rolleyes:.

Any charging which costs more than home charging will immediately free up the network from locals & phevs.

unkel

Kramer wrote: »

Any charging which costs more than home charging will immediately free up the network from locals & phevs.

You haven't really thought this through. Who is going to pay for the new 350kW public fast chargers? The tax payer through general taxation?

That would be most unfair. The tax payer has never paid a cent for the building of public petrol stations either

He who uses the public fast charger shall pay for the public fast charger. All of its cost. Not just a few cents more than he pays at home.

liamog

25c/min is the level I think it should be set at. Faster chargers should cost more per minute.

Charge from the time you tag on to the time you tag off.

liamog

KCross wrote: »

I’d rather that mathematically challenged individual have the decision made for them and free up the charger for people who need it.

If they want to get to 100% give them an AC charger next to the rapids for that, if needs be.

My fear is, if the charger stops at 15kW you'll just be left with a car blocking the charger and also not paying.

The scarce resource at the moment is the small bit of tarmac in front of the charger.

n97 mini

liamog wrote: »

My fear is, if the charger stops at 15kW you'll just be left with a car blocking the charger and also not paying.

The scarce resource at the moment is the small bit of tarmac in front of the charger.

The charge for overstaying would be even higher. Say €1 per minute, after 3 minutes of grace. People are not likely to make the mistake of overstaying more than once.

KCross

liamog wrote: »

My fear is, if the charger stops at 15kW you'll just be left with a car blocking the charger and also not paying.

The scarce resource at the moment is the small bit of tarmac in front of the charger.

That’s what the overstay fee is for!

I’m for kWh AND time based charging. One size won’t fit all but you need a system that encourages people to get in and out as quickly as possible.

n97 mini

Kramer wrote: »

why then propose charges to hammer all that are dependent on public chargers?

That needs to be solved in a different way. Local authorities need to insist on builders wiring up communal parking spaces in residential developments as part of planning permission. Sadly most LAs don't even seem to know EVs exist, so it's going to need to be forced on them from above.

For people in older housing with on street parking, there could be a system similar to parking permits for residents: you pay €100 a year for a charging permit which allows you to charge all you want on public charging. Overstaying at FCPs would incur penalties etc.

Kramer

unkel wrote: »

You haven't really thought this through. Who is going to pay for the new 350kW public fast chargers?

Who will pay? Not me at 50c/min
I'll just take my thirsty 6 cylinder petrol. Who would rather take their EV on a long journey with mandatory charging stops if it costs the same or even more than a petrol or diesel?

In the other thread & using a very efficient Ioniq as an example, a return trip to Dublin airport from Limerick would cost close to double what it would cost in a modern diesel. That's at 50c/min.

At €1/min (which seems to be acceptable to some), it would cost 3 or 4 times as much for that trip, with the added convenience of multiple stops to recharge, the added initial expense of purchasing an EV & everyone pointing & jeering at the EV driver, sitting at a charger while paying 3 times as much per km driven as the diesel driver!

Kramer wrote: »

So at a 50kW fast charger (45kW nominal), an Ioniq for example would charge at 0.75kWh per minute.
Best case scenario, an Ioniq averages 15kWh/100km (motorway), thats 20 minutes charging at max charging speed to cover 100kms.
So €20 per 100kms, or 20c/km.
So a return trip from Limerick to Dublin airport would cost €88 in electricity at fast chargers, not including the time & effort taken to stop several times.

In a Kona or IPace or ETron with far worse efficiency, the cost would be well over €100 for such a trip.

Is that really incentivising EV adoption?

You'll save most by charging at home, if you need to use the public charging network you have the wrong car, you've no business with an EV if you don't have a driveway............. yadda yadda yadda yadda.

I really think ECars will have a field day with some existing EV owners suggesting ludicrous fees like 50c/min or €1/min.

unkel

Kramer wrote: »

Who will pay? Not me at 50c/min
I'll just take my thirsty 6 cylinder petrol.

You haven't done the sums either

Let's say you need to do a 500km trip from Dublin to Cork and return the next day. Let's say in Ioniq, the EV with the smallest battery for sale today. Car is charged at home for €2.50. Need to charge at a public charger for about 10 minutes. Costs €5. Destination charging in Cork for free. Same on the way back, one 10 minute charge needed, costs €5

Total fuel costs €12.50

Your 6 cylinder petrol on a run would use maybe 35mpg? So it would use about 40l of petrol, so about €55 or well over 4 times as much as the EV

Even at 100c/minute, your petrol still costs well over twice as much as the EV (which would still be cheaper than the most frugal diesel)

Kramer

unkel wrote: »

You haven't done the sums either

Let's say you need to do a 500km trip from Dublin to Cork

No, let's say Mrs. Kramer arrives home at 4pm with an almost depleted battery in the Ioniq (usual pattern). I've to pop up to Dublin airport to collect a long lost cousin home from NY on his first ever trip to Ireland. So...............

440km return trip on motorway, no "destination" charging, no free overnight charge, purely dependent on fast chargers on the M7.
€88 in charges at €1/min + 2 or 3 charging stops, maybe an extra hour or 90 minutes on the journey.
€30 in a modern diesel (5l/100km) - no stopping.

Gees, I think the Ioniq needs to go

QED.

Dont be at yourself

We shouldn't be designing pricing to so easily accommodate fringe cases like that.

kanuseeme

As a Phev owner, I do not like to see, specific car owners getting blamed for people who do not see/understand or care, the anguish they cause to other types of car owners by hogging or ice'ing a charge point,

I bought my outlander to save money, travel to the airport in comfort and not having to play tetris with the kids, wife and bags.

I enjoy driving it, its high, it does the 6 km school run 3 times a day, costing me very little, I can go to town and back 24 km without using petrol, If I want to go further a field say 40 km away ,I can charge at a fast charger if it is available and use very little petrol on my return journey.

I read this thread about cutting off at a certain kw or charging a minute for using a D,C charger, my car only charges at 17 Kw max and tapers down the closer it gets to 80% and it then stops, I have restarted it and it continues to charge with less Kw's , I forget exactly but around 3.5 kw at 95%.

I do not charge If I do not have the time to charge, waiting on the wife to check the price on every item in penny's, I would prefer to be at the fast charger reading the news on my phone, and happy in the thought that my wife is happy shopping and me happy that its not costing me a lot to get her there.

I ask you all this, what is the point of E.V's or Phev's ? is it to save me or you money or to save the planet?

Most do not care for now about this planet only caring about their pocket, to incentivise more you have to make it cheaper for them to switch.

At the moment, most here complain about hogging and ice cars parked at the charger, as I see it , there is an element who will want to suck the last electron from the national grid because its free and its near them. As for ice cars , how many people park in commercial lorry spots in town, you hardly ever see a lorry parked there or its gone after 20 minutes, and a lot of people would not know an E.V or a phev unless you told them its one, and an empty space is just asking for a car to be parked on it.

My suggestion for a charging network would be:

1 lots of Destination chargers
2 More Fast DC chargers that are accessible from both sides and with a timer, charge for 10 minutes and reset, you need a 20 minute charge, restart to again after 10 minutes, it will keep you at the charger or you do not get electrons.
3 Smarter technology and more cables on a D.C charger( so multiple cars can charge) if a car is reaching its max charge it will consume less, so another car can charge at its maximum.
4 Clamping/towing or parking fines, for those who hog or away from there car at a D.C charger.

Things I do not want,

1 Charge for charging. With the small amount of E.V cars there needs to be an incentive to switch, free charging helps, if the % of E.V cars increases then it will be costly to provide free fuel to everyone, but until it reaches that point it should be free.

2 Concentrating on car owners who can afford the latest and best cars that can go from 0 to 100% in 3 minutes. the older E.V 's will still be non polluting and usable to some one even if they have only 90 km range . I would prefer 3 x 50 kw chargers to 1 x 150 kw any day of the week.

3 Complaining, you bought a car that limits you, you complain about others who take full advantage of a network, that allows it, the same complainers are happy when they are sucking electrons for free .

4 the government at some stage is going to start paying fines for breaking greenhouse gas emissions, until the government needs to start paying for that it should be paying by providing free charging to incentivise people to switch.

unkel

Kramer wrote: »

No, let's say Mrs. Kramer arrives home at 4pm with an almost depleted battery in the Ioniq (usual pattern). I've to pop up to Dublin airport to collect a long lost cousin home from NY on his first ever trip to Ireland. So...............

440km return trip on motorway

3 * 22kWh is about what it takes to drive 440km at motorway speeds starting with an empty Ioniq. This would take about 80 minutes in total (@50kW charger), so would cost €40 at 50c/minute, so still cheaper than your petrol. Cheaper again if there are tolls

But if you need to make a 440km trip on the same day you've already travelled 200km, an EV with a very small battery is probably not a wise choice. I'd pick the petrol too for that airport trip as it would need 3 charge stops in an empty Ioniq. Quite exhausting and stressful too after a hard day's work already done.

640km in one day is rather extreme. I'd say less than 1% of all Irish cars ever do such a trip in Ireland. If I regularly had to do that, I would not be driving an EV. Or a 6 cylinder petrol car either...

Fitz2011

From a business point of view. Ecars will have to be clever. Charge too much and it won’t make enough revenue to be profitable/ cover the network costs
Charge too little and you allow for the network to continue being abused.
A mixture of per kWh charging and per minute.
Maybe first 20 minutes by per kWh (Maybe @ 30 cent per kilowatt) this would help early adopters with slower charging cars
and after 20 minutes a per minute charge ( maybe @50 cent per min) after 45 minutes an overstay charge of 15 euros to keep everyone moving within 30 to 40 minutes.

Kramer

unkel wrote: »

If I regularly had to do that, I would not be driving an EV. Or a 6 cylinder petrol car either...

Yep, you're right. In my heart of hearts I always knew it..............
EV not suitable...
Back to a nice, comfy smokey diesel for me!

18,000 happy kilometers in the Ioniq since January......now obsolete with 50c/min+ charging for charging incoming.

Terribly sad day .

Kramer

Fitz2011 wrote: »

From a business point of view. Ecars will have to be clever. Charge too much and it won’t make enough revenue to be profitable/ cover the network costs
Charge too little and you allow for the network to continue being abused

Yes, it's that simple. I don't think there is any need to complicate it now though, a simple per minute charge of 25c will sort 90% plus of issues.
Tweak later as necessary when usage patterns are learned. Any useage patterns now are useless with any rfid card allowing access & locals primarily using the chargers I reckon.
6 months at 25c/min will yield useable data to progress future development of the network.

Silent Running

Kramer wrote: »

Yep, you're right. In my heart of hearts I always knew it..............
EV not suitable...
Back to a nice, comfy smokey diesel for me!

18,000 happy kilometers in the Ioniq since January......now obsolete with 50c/min+ charging for charging incoming.

Terribly sad day .

Just so you know... Unkel doesn't have the final say on the fees for charging. I'm sure calmer voices will choose wisely. :D

unkel

Kramer wrote: »

Yep, you're right. In my heart of hearts I always knew it..............
EV not suitable...
Back to a nice, comfy smokey diesel for me!

18,000 happy kilometers in the Ioniq since January......now obsolete with 50c/min+ charging for charging incoming.

Terribly sad day .

I take it you have a home charger. If so those 18000km would have been far cheaper than any diesel, even if you had to pay 50c/minute for all the times that you fast charged (when you couldn't have charged at home)

Did you really buy the Ioniq (with a say 180km motorway range) when you had to do a near 180km commute and you regularly needed to do a 440km in the EV after that on the same day? And you did so because fast public charging was free? And now you are going to get rid of your Ioniq if 50c/minute public charging comes in, still cheaper overall than any diesel?

Or are you trolling?

Kramer

unkel wrote: »

Did you really buy the Ioniq (with a say 180km motorway range) when you had to do a near 180km commute and you regularly needed to do a 440km in the EV after that on the same day? And you did so because fast public charging was free?

Yep.
Why?
Was I a little naive?

unkel

Fitz2011 wrote: »

From a business point of view. Ecars will have to be clever.

Fastned in the Netherlands is considered to be the benchmark of a succesfull commercial network not sponsored by the tax payer (ESB) or by any manufacturer (Ionity / Tesla superchargers)

They charge 59c/kWh which is roughly the same as 50c/minute if your car charges at about 50kW (all Irish fast chargers are 50kW)

Dont be at yourself

Had a quick look around Europe on Chargemap. Lots of models and pricing in operation:

Frankfurt: €8.626 connection fee
Copenhagen: €1.304/kWh
Lorient: €3.45 connection charge + €0.287/kWh + €0.11/min after 2hrs
Amsterdam: €0.793/kWh
Genoa: €0.404/kWh
Stokolm: €0.939/kWh
Vienna: €0.46/kWh

Patser

Does anyone now think that charging might stop/not happen after recent political developments.

Hear me out. Just over weekend we've had a well publicised 'Green wave' all across Europe, including Ireland - with even Varadkar making a 'the people have spoken' reference, that many interpret as being expect green policies and carbon tax hikes

Ireland has also recently declared an Environmental Emergency, a national priority- which I know is up there with trolley crisis emergency and housing emergency in terms of solutions offered.

But with a General election looking possible, Green politics to the fore and probable increase in taxes on polluting vehicles - how long do you reckon it'll be before someone goes I see your charging now for charging EVs, just as you want us all to buy them. Sure isn't there an emergency, so why now penalise those that are trying.

Whatever about finding a way of penalising those that remain plugged in to public chargers long after full, and block up the relatively small number of points currently available. To be seen as taking away a major, easily explained incentive and replacing it with possibly a complicated time/amount/penalty fee system would be an easy political point scoring system for opposition parties.

liamog

We are a long way from having a commercially viable network here.

The optics of it costing 10c/km when using a publically paid for rapid charging network would be very bad. eCars do not need to recoup the infrastructure cost, so the price model should reflect that case.
I've worked that out using an Ioniq charging from 10% to 80% at an average of 47.5kW and a 50c/min charge.

You're basically confirming that EVs are not suited for travel beyond their range, and ensuring that only those with private AC charging will have a use for them.

5c/km from a 25c/min fee still provides a modest saving over most ICE equivalents. Just to be clear, I'd only suggest the 25c/min for a 50kW charger, you'd scale it accordingly for faster chargers and ideally have a site with a mix at different power ratings with accordingly different per min fees. So the 150kW capable charger is 75c/min and 25kW one is 12.5c/min.

unkel

liamog wrote: »

You're basically confirming that EVs are not suited for travel beyond their range, and ensuring that only those with private AC charging will have a use for them.

Again Fastned in the Netherlands (where a far smaller percentage of households have a private driveway compared to Ireland) has this covered

They only charge 35c/kWh (equivalent of 29c/minute at 50kW charging) with a monthly subscription of €11.99

My best mate recently bought a Tesla Model 3 over there. I actually convinced him not to get a home charger (which would have cost €2k to install due to not having a driveway)

Kramer

unkel wrote: »

They only charge 35c/kWh (equivalent of 29c/minute at 50kW charging) with a monthly subscription of €11.99

Seem to be plenty of Tesla superchargers throughout The Netherlands with an average cost of 25c/kWh .

liamog

What's your goal in charging 50c/min?

I can't see a reason economic, or social, to set the fee at such a high level for a network that is being built by funds from general taxation to decrease CO2 emissions from private transportation.

discostu1

Kramer wrote: »

Who will pay? Not me at 50c/min
I'll just take my thirsty 6 cylinder petrol. Who would rather take their EV on a long journey with mandatory charging stops if it costs the same or even more than a petrol or diesel?

In the other thread & using a very efficient Ioniq as an example, a return trip to Dublin airport from Limerick would cost close to double what it would cost in a modern diesel. That's at 50c/min.

At €1/min (which seems to be acceptable to some), it would cost 3 or 4 times as much for that trip, with the added convenience of multiple stops to recharge, the added initial expense of purchasing an EV & everyone pointing & jeering at the EV driver, sitting at a charger while paying 3 times as much per km driven as the diesel driver!

The Sound of nail being hit on the head

Kramer

liamog wrote: »

What's your goal in charging 50c/min?

To ensure whichever charger he needs to use on his only trip outside the M50 each year, is available .

Actually, it seems all Tesla superchargers throughout Europe cost between 25c & 35c per kWh.
Fair.

https://www.tesla.com/en_EU/support/supercharging

discostu1

So the ESB provide most of the Charging in London and for Taxis Coventry I don't know the cost of charging there but would be interesting. Also EasyGo the lads who provide the Lidl chargers have a charging framework I don't know what it is but again if eCars under cut them and others significantly we are back to a Monopoly and I suspect possibly a court case