Scrapping Daylight Saving time

magicbastarder

it's curious that spain is on CET (portugal is not); madrid is further west than london.

maybe it *is* purely down to having longer evenings.

Hurrache

CrowdedHouse wrote: »

If the UK doesn't change the same as us (probably wont for spite!) a couple of my radio controlled clocks will be useless.

It is something I've thought of. I've 3 internet radios throughout the house, no longer supported by the manufacturer. I don't know if they take their time from the network they're connected to, or the server.

Same too with my house alarm, it's programmed to automatically update it's time at the appropriate time. That would require an update, which given it's over 20 years old, won't be happening.

Riskymove

magicbastarder wrote: »

it's curious that spain is on CET (portugal is not); madrid is further west than london.

maybe it *is* purely down to having longer evenings.

Franco wanted to be on same time as his pals further east basically!!

Spain have been arguing about the matter since!

Macy0161

greenwaving wrote: »

Please don't put that it doesn't matter. It does. For all those who work on one side and live on the other. For the children who attend school/crèche on one side and live on the other. Trade will adapt to the different time zones. But general day-to-day living will become a lot harder to manage for those living on both sides. Maybe they should restrict the commentary on this to those who will live with and understand the impact.

I answered based on the effect on me, which is no effect. If it's a concern along the border, then people potentially affected should make their own submission.

However, I'm not really sure it will be any more disruptive overall than different currencies, different laws, metric v imperial speed limits, different tax rates. Even in this state, different schools, even on the same sites, have different start times. It seems something to adjust too, rather than a road block, imo.

homer911

I know people will disagree with me but I think any decision should be influenced by what they decide in mainland Europe. Personally I'd favor using central European time, regardless of what that means..

Fian

seamus wrote: »

This is why I don't buy the "it was for the farmers" explanation. The cows don't know what time it is. If the cows got up in the pitch black today, they're going to get up in the pitch black tomorrow, they're not going to have a lie in because the clocks went back

The cows will get up in line with the daylight. The point about assisting the farmers is that they have no choice but to get up in line with the cows. changing the hour helps keep the daytime in line with their rhythms - so they are getting up at 6 am or whatever rather than 5am. I am not a farmer so although i have a vague feeling they get up "at the crack of dawn" I don't know what actual times they are up and about at.

Havings said all of that: the real reason it was introduced was apparently to cut back on domestic fuel use during WWI (or maybe WW2?).

Hurrache

There's a cow farm over my back wall, and yes, they're usually up at the crack of dawn. However some mornings when I open the curtains they may be all lying down. It could be they've been up already, had their morning walk and breakfast and having a little break afterwards.

So to sum it up, I don't know, I can't work out what time cows get up at. Maybe I'll set up a webcam and stream it here to answer one of life's great questions.

Fian

Personally I would like to see it move to summer time +1 all year round. So an hourforward again from summer time.

I am not a morning person and I couldn't care less about having light at 4:30 am. In fact I do care slightly - but only because if I am unfortunate enough to be awake the sunlight will bother me and impede me getting back to sleep.

Nor do i really care if it is twilight when i am in work in the morning at 9. I don't need to be outdoors except on the commute and commuting in the dark is inevitable in the winter anyway, if not in teh morning then in the evening. In teh evenings though, it is great when the hour moves and it is still daylight out when i get home in the evening.

Light at 8/9/10 in the evening though, that is valuable.

and those arguements that you can just adjust your own patterns are bull - I have to work 9-6 and i can't just make it 6-3 even if i wanted to.

Fian

greenwaving wrote: »

Please don't put that it doesn't matter. It does. For all those who work on one side and live on the other. For the children who attend school/crèche on one side and live on the other. Trade will adapt to the different time zones. But general day-to-day living will become a lot harder to manage for those living on both sides. Maybe they should restrict the commentary on this to those who will live with and understand the impact.

No it impacts all of us. I voted to move to summer time and to do so regardless of whether teh North did it to or not. It is not that i don't recognise there could be an impact on those on teh border, it is just that i don't think the whole country should be out of synch with daylight to avoid that.

and if the DUP have their way they will certainly try not to stay in synch with us here.

Hurrache

greenwaving wrote: »

Maybe they should restrict the commentary on this to those who will live with

So everyone. I also commented in the survey that it does not matter what other jurisdictions do.

greenwaving

Fian wrote: »

No it impacts all of us. I voted to move to summer time and to do so regardless of whether teh North did it to or not. It is not that i don't recognise there could be an impact on those on teh border, it is just that i don't think the whole country should be out of synch with daylight to avoid that.

and if the DUP have their way they will certainly try not to stay in synch with us here.

Hurrache wrote: »

So everyone. I also commented in the survey that it does not matter what other jurisdictions do.

I agree the change impacts everyone. And I of course think that everyone should have the chance to respond. But I do question people commenting specifically on the impact that this will have with the North (which the person I responded to was doing) with sweeping generalisations that "it doesn't matter" when they are unlikely to know the day-to-day impact it will have.

Macy0161 wrote: »

However, I'm not really sure it will be any more disruptive overall than different currencies, different laws, metric v imperial speed limits, different tax rates. Even in this state, different schools, even on the same sites, have different start times. It seems something to adjust too, rather than a road block, imo.

Of course people will adjust. Just as they would to a hard border etc if it came to pass. But that is not to say that it doesn't matter. It will have an impact and quite a significant one - as someone who lives with the border every day I know only too well that it will.

As it happens I would be in favour of the change to summertime but would be very concerned if it happened without the North following suit.

Macy0161

greenwaving wrote: »

Of course people will adjust. Just as they would to a hard border etc if it came to pass. But that is not to say that it doesn't matter. It will have an impact and quite a significant one - as someone who lives with the border every day I know only too well that it will.

But in such a survey, people can only comment on how it will impact them - and if it doesn't matter to them, it doesn't matter to them!

imo it shouldn't be a question full stop on a survey as to what this State should do.

plodder

greenwaving wrote: »

Please don't put that it doesn't matter. It does. For all those who work on one side and live on the other. For the children who attend school/crèche on one side and live on the other. Trade will adapt to the different time zones. But general day-to-day living will become a lot harder to manage for those living on both sides.

Was going to make the same point. Brexit is definitely a complication in this and will be a headache for people who live one side of the border and work on the other. If we drop DST and they don't then there will be a time difference for six months of the year. Speculating even further, if Scotland were to leave the UK, then maybe the rest of the UK wouldn't care about DST as much and they might change. Who knows? There are many permutations of what could happen.

Maybe they should restrict the commentary on this to those who will live with and understand the impact.

Actually, I think this is one of those issues that affects literally everybody and many of us have some idea what the benefits of changing will be, but less understanding of the downsides, which was why I was totally serious in suggesting trialing an entire year of both before committing to one (though again I'd prefer to keep DST). And I'd let the people decide with some kind of vote. Life styles are so diverse nowadays with shift work and the like, that nobody can speak for anyone but themselves.

Also, what concerned me a bit was when I heard one of our MEPs talking about it recently. He was a bit dismissive of the downsides of Summer time, when asked about the effect on kids cycling/walking to school in the mornings. His answer was that most kids are driven to school nowadays. I can't remember his name, but I don't want the decision made (or overly influenced) by him. If it turns out that most people are really in favour of Summer time, then that's fine with me though.

greenwaving

Macy0161 wrote: »

But in such a survey, people can only comment on how it will impact them - and if it doesn't matter to them, it doesn't matter to them!

imo it shouldn't be a question full stop on a survey as to what this State should do.

They can build simple things into the survey design such as collect location data from responders so that responses from those who live on the border about border issues are weighted more heavily. Or change routing/options based on this.

And you as a responder could leave that option blank if it doesn't apply to you. But I do think the main flaw rests with the survey design.

They should of course be collecting information on the impact this will have although I don't think it has been collected in a meaningful manner with this survey. People live in 'this State' and work in the North so even if the opinions of those living in the North were dismissed it is a key consideration imo

terrydel

Hurrache wrote: »

Why would you chose winter time over summer and lose all those evening daylight hours for rides and other sport?

He said he'd prefer to stay as is.

Cee-Jay-Cee

greenwaving wrote: »

Please don't put that it doesn't matter. It does. For all those who work on one side and live on the other. For the children who attend school/cre on one side and live on the other. Trade will adapt to the different time zones. But general day-to-day living will become a lot harder to manage for those living on both sides. Maybe they should restrict the commentary on this to those who will live with and understand the impact.

That argument wont work in regard to children, if you live here you are supposed to go to school here, there is no provision for living in the 26 counties and attend school in the North and that rule is made by the Northern Ireland education board. I know its rife in border areas but you'll find all those children attending school in NI are using their grandparents and relatives addresses in NI so they have zero claim to any argument in that regard.

I am all for absolishing DST and remaining on summer time. I think there is very very little support for remaining on winter time and so if it does come to pass it'll be to remain on summer time.

I can see advantages to having DST but there is absolutely no need for it so early. The first weekend in December and last weekend in January would cover the dead of winter and make more sense rather than the ridiculous 5 months they currently have.

CrowdedHouse

You'd kinda wonder what prompted all this now anyway.

I know it's a bit glib to say surely there are more pressing issues.

Even though many whinge about the clock changing we're used to it.

Personally I'd prefer to leave it as it is.

plodder

Cee-Jay-Cee wrote: »

That argument wont work in regard to children, if you live here you are supposed to go to school here, there is no provision for living in the 26 counties and attend school in the North and that rule is made by the Northern Ireland education board. I know its rife in border areas but you'll find all those children attending school in NI are using their grandparents and relatives addresses in NI so they have zero claim to any argument in that regard.

You could live on one side, your kids go to school the same side, but you work the other, and the hour change could still cause serious disruption, and therefore have some "claim to any argument in that regard".

I am all for absolishing DST and remaining on summer time. I think there is very very little support for remaining on winter time and so if it does come to pass it'll be to remain on summer time.

Again not sure where you're getting that from, but it adds to my belief that this should be decided by a process that gets the greatest amount of informed input as possible.

greenwaving

Cee-Jay-Cee wrote: »

That argument wont work in regard to children, if you live here you are supposed to go to school here, there is no provision for living in the 26 counties and attend school in the North and that rule is made by the Northern Ireland education board. I know its rife in border areas but you'll find all those children attending school in NI are using their grandparents and relatives addresses in NI so they have zero claim to any argument in that regard.

Creches, nurserys, after school childminders can be (and are regularly) accessed either side of the border. Northern Irish children can access schools in the South (I believe - correct me if I am mistaken here). The survey specifically asks for the opinions of those in Northern Ireland as well as the South so it is a valid point regarding the impact.

CrowdedHouse

Is the UK definitely not changing?

Wishbone Ash

Macy0161 wrote: »

... will extend the opportunities for family activities that are hampered by winter time....

WTF? Is that some form of a joke? This is the Cycling Forum. Family activities have no place here and only serve to impede cycling priorities. :eek:

magicbastarder

CrowdedHouse wrote: »

Is the UK definitely not changing?

i remember it was one fo the first things which cropped up when the tories got back into power with cameron at the helm, they were talking about changing (in the moving to 'not changing' option), but it seemed to drop off the radar.

Macy0161

magicbastarder wrote: »

i remember it was one fo the first things which cropped up when the tories got back into power with cameron at the helm, they were talking about changing (in the moving to 'not changing' option), but it seemed to drop off the radar.

It's on their agenda as well - all across the EU. Taking back control of their clocks...

CramCycle

Fian wrote: »

The cows will get up in line with the daylight. The point about assisting the farmers is that they have no choice but to get up in line with the cows. changing the hour helps keep the daytime in line with their rhythms - so they are getting up at 6 am or whatever rather than 5am. I am not a farmer so although i have a vague feeling they get up "at the crack of dawn" I don't know what actual times they are up and about at.

Havings said all of that: the real reason it was introduced was apparently to cut back on domestic fuel use during WWI (or maybe WW2?).

cows get up when it suits them, Farmers get up depending on the type of farmer but will typically be when the job needs to get done. The time on the clock face will have no affect on this matter whatsoever.

I always laugh when people bring up the farmer comment. Farmers, dairy are a great example, have a set pattern, If the time on the clock jumps two hours in any direction, they do not suddenly start milking the cows two hours later or earlier.

monkeybutter

CramCycle wrote: »

cows get up when it suits them, Farmers get up depending on the type of farmer but will typically be when the job needs to get done. The time on the clock face will have no affect on this matter whatsoever.

I always laugh when people bring up the farmer comment. Farmers, dairy are a great example, have a set pattern, If the time on the clock jumps two hours in any direction, they do not suddenly start milking the cows two hours later or earlier.

They have a set pattern, but can easily shift it an hour here or there to suits themselves, i can tell you if they were milking the cows at 7am and it suddenly became 5am they would shift it

saccades

monkeybutter wrote: »

They have a set pattern, but can easily shift it an hour here or there to suits themselves, i can tell you if they were milking the cows at 7am and it suddenly became 5am they would shift it

The farmer thing is bollocks - it's so the kids can get to school in the morning when it's light. Less of an issue these days as loads more kids are ferried to school rather than walk.

Portugal have tried several times to be in CET (central European time) which is not dissimilar to fixing DST and always give up because it's **** having chunks of the day artificially put in a crap place, light wise.

cdaly_

Fian wrote: »

No it impacts all of us. I voted to move to summer time and to do so regardless of whether teh North did it to or not. It is not that i don't recognise there could be an impact on those on teh border, it is just that i don't think the whole country should be out of synch with daylight to avoid that.

You know that both summer and winter time are out of sync with daylight but summer time is more out of sync.

Local apparent time in Dublin is UTC+~30min.
Winter time == UTC == LAT + 30min
Summer time == UTC+1 == LAT + 90min

To remain in sync with daylight requires using winter time.

Fian

cdaly_ wrote: »

You know that both summer and winter time are out of sync with daylight but summer time is more out of sync.

Local apparent time in Dublin is UTC+~30min.
Winter time == UTC == LAT + 30min
Summer time == UTC+1 == LAT + 90min

To remain in sync with daylight requires using winter time.

"in synch" is meaningless. One person's in synch means early sunrise and evenings, anothers means later sunrise and evenings. there is no natural law that a particular time corresponds with a particular phase of the sun. Or that the clock is ideally set at UTC.

I want sun in the evening more than I want sun while I am still in bed or getting ready to leave the house. If the sun rose at 8 for most of the year (with it rising a bit later in mid winter) that would be ideal for me. Would be worth it for later evenings. That isn't going to happen but summer time will definitely be closer to that than winter time. As I said earlier I would prefer summer time +1 year round.

magicbastarder

Fian wrote: »

there is no natural law that a particular time corresponds with a particular phase of the sun.

well, there is. in the sense that midday or noon is at 12, so when the sun should be directly overhead.
not too far off today, from what i can see the actual time of midday was 12:14pm.

cdaly_

The difference between local apparent time and civil time varies through the year according to the Equation of Time. This means that LAT in Dublin will be GMT-20+-18min over the course of the year.