Scrapping Daylight Saving time

plodder

Raam wrote: »

I'd probably settle for starting Summer time earlier in the year, start of March maybe.

Was going to say the same thing. It was unusually late this year, because the last Sunday was the last day of the month. I'd prefer the US approach which is the second Sunday of March and we'd have had the extra hour for the last three weeks.

As far as I know, this still has to be approved by the council of ministers, which I hope will ensure it gets more scrutiny than it has so far. One interesting aspect will be whether all the countries of the CET zone can agree on which of Summer or Winter time to choose. I could imagine countries to the east like Germany, Austria might want Summer time, but that might not suit France or Spain, who are already out of kilter with their "natural" timezone. Spain has been considering a switch to GMT anyway. And what about Switzerland then, which isn't in the EU? It could be very messy if different countries go different ways.

So, I don't think it's a done deal yet.

plodder

Chips Lovell wrote: »

Did you just Godwin the thread?

Don't mention the war ...

Apparently, the Germans invented DST and now they are leading the charge to get rid of it ..

http://fortune.com/2019/03/30/germany-daylight-saving-time-eu/

As for the unpopularity of sommerzeit in Germany, he proposed a concise theory.

For many people, he said, “complaining is an extremely important part of life.”

Plastik

Plastik wrote: »

On the east coast, sunset for the summer solstice would be 9pm give or take if we stayed on winter time. Sunrise would be 4am. 4am? D'fcuk use is that to anyone!

If only there was some incredibly simple yet clever system for moving that hour from the start of the day to the end of the day in the summer.

We could call it 'daylight savings time' and it would mean long summer evenings, not TOO much light in the mornings in the summer, and no long dark mornings in the winter.

flatface

I don’t understand the need to change this, it suits Ireland perfectly. I’m a big fan of the current daylight savings system. Maybe because I don’t struggle to change a car clock?

CramCycle

The more I think about it, the better Raams idea sounds.

Raam

CramCycle wrote: »

The more I think about it, the better Raams idea sounds.

Who do I send the invoice to?

magicbastarder

was just listening to this, just under 10 mins long; about heart attacks and whether the clock change does cause an upswing:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p073pcdb

tomasrojo

magicbastarder wrote: »

was just listening to this, just under 10 mins long; about heart attacks and whether the clock change does cause an upswing:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p073pcdb

Given what they say about the way sleep schedules for most people lurch around in the context of a single week, this once-a-year event bring the words of one J. Christ on straining at a gnat and swallowing a camel to mind.

Lumen

What is wrong with you people?

ENDLESS SUMMER!!!!!

buffalo

I was thinking about all the clocks I wouldn't have to change if daylight savings ended, and how nice that would be.

Then I realised the amount of clocks that change automatically that I'm not able to change the firmware on - my bedside alarm, the boiler control panel, etc. - and realised that I'll have to change those instead. :rolleyes:

magicbastarder

buffalo, on sunday morning (audio is definitely NSFW):

https://twitter.com/SusanSmythSL/status/1112394035908493313

Macy0161

flatface wrote: »

I don’t understand the need to change this, it suits Ireland perfectly. I’m a big fan of the current daylight savings system. Maybe because I don’t struggle to change a car clock?

No struggle with the car clock (another reason bikes are better - my bike computers just update time automatically ), but definitely found the last few mornings a struggle...

I'm not doing most of my training/ exercise in the morning, so last week up in the mountains was lovely. But already we've already gone 2 for 2 with family walks in in evenings that wouldn't have worked before the change.

tomasrojo

tomasrojo wrote: »

Given what they say about the way sleep schedules for most people lurch around in the context of a single week, this once-a-year event bring the words of one J. Christ on straining at a gnat and swallowing a camel to mind.

Ahem. Twice-a-year event.

magicbastarder

well, once a year in that they do say the effect is noted only at spring forward; it does not seem to occur at fall back.

Billcarson

Why not a compromise and move the clocks forward half an hour and leave it that way .

tomasrojo

I definitely find the Spring switcheroo harder to deal with.

Billcarson

tomasrojo wrote: »

I definitely find the Spring switcheroo harder to deal with.

Me too.

magicbastarder

'having an hour extra in bed is easier than having an hour less' shocker!

CramCycle

tomasrojo wrote: »

Ahem. Twice-a-year event.

It only goes forward once a year (I didn't listen to the podcast),

plodder

buffalo wrote: »

I was thinking about all the clocks I wouldn't have to change if daylight savings ended, and how nice that would be.

Then I realised the amount of clocks that change automatically that I'm not able to change the firmware on - my bedside alarm, the boiler control panel, etc. - and realised that I'll have to change those instead. :rolleyes:

That's a good point. Now you mention it, my new boiler clock "sprang forward" there without me touching it, whereas the old one had a little recessed button you had to press that adjusted the time forward or back by an hour. This could be a mini Y2K problem with some cost associated if there is a lot of equipment out there like that which can't be updated.

Granted though, most sophisticated phones, devices and computers will cope either way, as those operating systems are regularly updated with changes like this.

magicbastarder

we had great fun in work a few years ago. egypt decided with a few days to go that they were not going to bother with the clock change after all. we had to rush out an emergency patch to thousands of systems.

plodder

magicbastarder wrote: »

we had great fun in work a few years ago. egypt decided with a few days to go that they were not going to bother with the clock change after all. we had to rush out an emergency patch to thousands of systems.

Off topic but there's probably something similar happening at the moment to do with the new Japanese calendar era which was announced a couple of days ago, to start on May 1. It will be year 1 of the 'Reiwa era' to mark their new emperor. We're just about to release an update for it.

cdaly_

Billcarson wrote: »

Why not a compromise and move the clocks forward half an hour and leave it that way .

25 minutes would be the better choice...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_in_the_Republic_of_Ireland
Dublin lost its timezone in 1916

CramCycle

I presume it is easier for people, business practices and countries to do the plus or minus an hour as it requires less thinking for most people

Lumen

plodder wrote: »

That's a good point. Now you mention it, my new boiler clock "sprang forward" there without me touching it, whereas the old one had a little recessed button you had to press that adjusted the time forward or back by an hour. This could be a mini Y2K problem with some cost associated if there is a lot of equipment out there like that which can't be updated.

But...why does your boiler need to know the time? A time is fine. You can just think of part of your house as having been annexed to run Boiler Standard Time.

Change is hard. The Gregorian calendar was introduced in 1582 but Saudi only adopted it in 2016.

seamus

I've never seen an auto-adjusting clock that didn't include an option to disable daylight savings time.

Just sayin....

Idleater

seamus wrote: »

I've never seen an auto-adjusting clock that didn't include an option to disable daylight savings time.

Just sayin....

Actually the most annoying is my old PS3 (don't know what the 4 does) but in the time and date settings you have automatically adjust the time, pick both a timezone (eg Dublin) and there's a chechbox for summer time.

So the timezone moves forward, but the clock could be not enabled for summer time.

plodder

seamus wrote: »

I've never seen an auto-adjusting clock that didn't include an option to disable daylight savings time.

I'll check that tonight ...

JMcL

Lumen wrote: »

But...why does your boiler need to know the time? A time is fine. You can just think of part of your house as having been annexed to run Boiler Standard Time.

To align with your concept of having hot water for a shower at 8am rather than the boilers notion of 8am an hour later?

Change is hard. The Gregorian calendar was introduced in 1582 but Saudi only adopted it in 2016.

Probably needed it for all that shiny Brit and US supplied ordinance they've been chucking into Yemen over the past few years

Idleater

JMcL wrote: »

To align with your concept of having hot water for a shower at 8am rather than the boilers notion of 8am an hour later?

And night rate electricity?

skallywag

The countries who value the long evenings and summer sports are clearly going to vote one way, while those who prefer winter sport are going to go the other. Which will mean the like of Austria and Switzerland will stay on winter time, while Germany, Holland etc. will likely vote for summer time.

magicbastarder

Why would countries who prefer winter sports prefer shorter evenings?

skallywag

magicbastarder wrote: »

Why would countries who prefer winter sports prefer shorter evenings?

More having it bright in the morning. Winter sports folk tend to go out very early. Best snow conditions, less people, etc. You can't open a ski piste until the light conditions are safe.

Hurrache

skallywag wrote: »

More having it bright in the morning. Winter sports folk tend to go out very early.

Likely to get more daylight hours, so it's a moot point.

skallywag

Hurrache wrote: »

Likely to get more daylight hours, so it's a moot point.

It's not.

People who take winter sport seriously really value the first hour or so on the pistes. Reason being they are relatively free from crowds of people, and the snow condition is still top notch, pisted pistes etc. Most resorts open as soon as there is an acceptable level of light from a safeness perspective, which generally means from 08:15 to 09:00 depending on the direction the resort faces, and what other mountains may be be blocking the early morning light, etc.

If they keep summer time, then they will open at 09:15 to 10:00 instead, meaning the early bird catching the worm option will be gone.

Hurrache

So you're talking about a minority here, and still driven by daylight.

plodder

plodder wrote: »

I've never seen an auto-adjusting clock that didn't include an option to disable daylight savings time.

I'll check that tonight ...

No way to override DST I'm afraid. You set the year, month and date and it just figures out the time to switch forward and back. It's actually an immersion timer rather than a boiler control in this case.

Fian

skallywag wrote: »

It's not.

People who take winter sport seriously really value the first hour or so on the pistes. Reason being they are relatively free from crowds of people, and the snow condition is still top notch, pisted pistes etc. Most resorts open as soon as there is an acceptable level of light from a safeness perspective, which generally means from 08:15 to 09:00 depending on the direction the resort faces, and what other mountains may be be blocking the early morning light, etc.

If they keep summer time, then they will open at 09:15 to 10:00 instead, meaning the early bird catching the worm option will be gone.

Basically you are saying you are against it because it means more people will get the benefit of the pistes during the hours of daylight, and therefore you will have to share with a greater number of people rather than having uncrowded pistes to yourself early in the morning?

skallywag

Fian wrote: »

Basically you are saying you are against it because it means more people will get the benefit of the pistes during the hours of daylight, and therefore you will have to share with a greater number of people rather than having uncrowded pistes to yourself early in the morning?

Exactly.

Those who live in mountainous countries and who take skiing or snowboarding very seriously are going to typically be at the resort waiting for the first lift to open, and will value that first hour in the morning as the best part of the day by far.

The snow conditions are perfect (corduroy pisted from the night before) and you have the lowest density of people of the slopes. Starting from even an hour later this starts to change dramatically, as the hoards turn up. This has gotten steadily progressively worse over the last years, and a lot of resorts are now typically cram packed to the point of not being fun any more by 1.5 to 2 hours after opening. Some are even at the point of been dangerous by this time, particularly resorts with a high level of beginners who think that they are a lot better than they really are, and cause accidents by colliding with others from behind. If the highlight of that first hour was lost then many such folk would be put off going out at all, and definitely not as frequently.

Interesting enough quite a few who are heavy into cycling in these countries are also tending towards the same way of thinking, meaning those who like riding long mountain passes at the weekend in the summer. i.e. many would prefer to head out on hour earlier if possible. The volume of motor bikes on the long alpine climbs has also increased dramatically over the last few years. Nothing against motor bikers per se, but endless streams of them passing you out constantly on narrow roads at high speed is not so enjoyable. They also tend to be 'later risers' than road bikers though, so an hour can also be won on that side. On the other side of the coin you would lose an hour in the evening of course though.

Those who are heavily into winter sports also are often also big into summer sports such as road biking, so it tends to be the same group of people. All in all though from those I have spoken with I would say that the clear majority would be in favour of sticking to winter time.

Hurrache

Changing the clocks to summer time will not make a difference in your situation.

skallywag

Hurrache wrote: »

Changing the clocks to summer time will not make a difference in your situation.

It would, it would mean that the resorts could only open at 10:00 rather than 09:00, or 09:30 rather than 08:30, etc.

Hurrache

And people will be up using them regardless.

Isn't your argument that winter is better for serious sportsmen? Your logic doesn't follow.

skallywag

Hurrache wrote: »

And people will be up using them regardless

Which is exactly my point, if they open at 10:00 rather than 09:00 then there will be way more people there for the first hour than if they opened at 09:00. You lose that first hour when you have the snow in the best condition and relatively empty pistes.

I'm not sure what part of the logic you are having trouble with ...

I said that keeping winter time is better for people seriously into winter sports.

Hurrache

The hour doesn't disappear, it's still there. Slopes can change their opening times to suit. Because the time changes it doesn't mean the pistes stay closed for that hour, they change with it.

Less "serious" sportspeople won't be staying in bed any longer than the "serious" sportsman to allow the serious guy have the piste to themselves. In fact beginners also have a preference for the quieter pistes, as well as the ski schools.

Any time I go skiing you have queues at the lifts from the off.

skallywag

Hurrache wrote: »

Slopes can change their opening times to suit. Because the time changes it doesn't mean the pistes stay closed for that hour, they change with it.

That's not correct, as I've pointed out several times now.

In most cases it will simply not be possible to open that hour earlier, due to lighting conditions. You cannot open a piste unless the light conditions are safe.

CramCycle

skallywag wrote: »

That's not correct, as I've pointed out several times now.

In most cases it will simply not be possible to open that hour earlier, due to lighting conditions. You cannot open a piste unless the light conditions are safe.

I think their point is whether you call that time 7, 8, 9 or 10am makes no difference, the people who want to be on the slopes at first light,will be on the slopes at first light. I presume your point is that if it appears to be later opening, then you might get more tourists on the slopes. I don't think it will make that much of a difference but it will make some, but not much.

magicbastarder

i also think that the objection 'serious winter sports people will find it harder to use the slopes if they change the clocks' could also be spun to 'amateurs will find it easier to be able to get out for a ski before work'.
if you're saying that the clocks should be configured to keep the pistes empty, you may find there are more people who disagree with you than agree with you as to whether that's a good thing.

Cape Clear

Great cycling thread this

Zzippy

skallywag wrote: »

Exactly.

Those who live in mountainous countries and who take skiing or snowboarding very seriously are going to typically be at the resort waiting for the first lift to open, and will value that first hour in the morning as the best part of the day by far.

When I go skiing I like to be up early and get the empty, fresh-groomed pistes too. But you're talking about a tiny minority of people - the governments in those countries are not going to base their decision on the wishes of a few skiers.

plodder

Zzippy wrote: »

When I go skiing I like to be up early and get the empty, fresh-groomed pistes too. But you're talking about a tiny minority of people - the governments in those countries are not going to base their decision on the wishes of a few skiers.

Skiing wasn't uppermost on my list when I raised the issue first, but what I think it shows is that there are a myriad of different concerns that people have, and nobody can really speak for anyone but themselves.