M50 - apalling gridlock

Dravokivich

tom1ie wrote: »

Ok. Can you answer the question I asked please.

There I was thinking I did. :rollseyes:

Dravokivich

foxatron wrote: »

I think this has been covered in various threads. To overtake you'd have to move out of your lane, passing the car in front of you and then change lane back into the lane that you were in. The speed limit is the speed limit. Its not your fault the car to the right chooses to do less. Its not overtaking to stay in your own lane.

Overtaking doesn't require changing lanes. Just passing someone travelling in the same direction.

tom1ie

Dravokivich wrote: »

There I was thinking I did. :rollseyes:

You didn't. You started quoting your theory of relativity.
If in scenario A a car drives at 60kph in the right hand lane can anyone in the middle or left lane overtake that car on the left hand side?
Or scenario B does the entire m50 have to wait until the car travelling at 60kph decides to get off the motorway or move into the middle so they can pass on the RHS?
so which scenario is correct?

Dravokivich

tom1ie wrote: »

You didn't. You started quoting your theory of relativity.
If in scenario A a car drives at 60kph in the right hand lane can anyone in the middle or left lane overtake that car on the left hand side?
Or scenario B does the entire m50 have to wait until the car travelling at 60kph decides to get off the motorway or move into the middle so they can pass on the RHS?
so which scenario is correct?

I didnt reference any scientific theory. The legislation references slow moving traffic as a condition prior to it being permissible for over taking on the left. Just for it to be a situation where they are slower on your right, is merely a matter of perception relative to you, while in free flowing traffic.

tom1ie

Dravokivich wrote: »

I didnt reference any scientific theory. The legislation references slow moving traffic as a condition prior to it being permissible for over taking on the left. Just for it to be a situation where they are slower on your right, is merely a matter of perception relative to you, while in free flowing traffic.

So your agreeing with my point. Why didn't you just say that 😂

Tell me how

Nermal wrote: »

They are (or in HP's case, were) manufacturing sites.

Not a surprise that they will be outside cities, they need a lot of relatively cheap land.

When that's not a factor, a company will locate centrally.

Kerry's offices in Naas are corporate, not manufacturing.

Look at the likes of many of the businesses in Cherrywood. They are not manufacturing. Could they not be similarly located in Naas, Maynooth environs with sufficient access to their requirements.

They could hardly be described as being located centrally either. I'm not suggesting that they be moved but that similar businesses be considered elsewhere rather than just within M50 in future.

Dravokivich

tom1ie wrote: »

So your agreeing with my point. Why didn't you just say that 😂

I'm not the one writing up tickets. I'll sit back and give plenty of room for others to get by me and cut inside the person going "slow" on the outside lane. If you truly want to challenge the validity of it, bring it up with the TDs in your area or the minister for transport.

RayCun

Tell me how wrote: »

Kerry's offices in Naas are corporate, not manufacturing.

Look at the likes of many of the businesses in Cherrywood. They are not manufacturing. Could they not be similarly located in Naas, Maynooth environs with sufficient access to their requirements.

They could hardly be described as being located centrally either. I'm not suggesting that they be moved but that similar businesses be considered elsewhere rather than just within M50 in future.

The companies in cherrywood are accessible to anyone on the green luas line, and anyone within cycling distance, which is a lot of people.

AndrewJRenko

Patww79 wrote: »

Was watching a lad trying to load his briefcase, coat, and other belongings into the basket of one of those at the station outside the NCH the other night. If there is anything less dignified looking than one of those things then I've yet to see it.

Perhaps the lad, being presumably an adult, gave up being worried about what random other people think about whether they look dignified or not?


It's not hard to get a laptop bag into the basket - just put in portrait style. Does anyone still use a briefcase?

tom1ie

tom1ie wrote: »

If in scenario A a car drives at 60kph in the right hand lane can anyone in the middle or left lane overtake that car on the left hand side?
Or scenario B does the entire m50 have to wait until the car travelling at 60kph decides to get off the motorway or move into the middle so they can pass on the RHS?
so which scenario is correct?

Anyone? Surely it's more unsafe for a whole convoy of traffic to be doing 60 than it is to overtake in lane 1?

Macy0161

RayCun wrote: »

The companies in cherrywood are accessible to anyone on the green luas line, and anyone within cycling distance, which is a lot of people.

Plus N11 corridor Public Transport (and cars), and 99% sure it (or several businesses) have a bus link to the dart.

micks_address

not sure how it was this morning at 8 but i left lusk at 6.30 and got to citywest for 710.. figured its either go in early or work from home.. even then there was a slowdown at toll bridge.. google maps jumped my arrival time by 8 minutes over the length of the commute.. just think this last month, and next week are worst times of the year.

Dravokivich

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Anyone? Surely it's more unsafe for a whole convoy of traffic to be doing 60 than it is to overtake in lane 1?

Surely why? A lot of people here reckon variable speed limits should be introduced to bring down the pace of traffic during heavy usage. (I reckon m50 pretty much does this itself from my own experience)

Macy0161

micks_address wrote: »

just think this last month, and next week are worst times of the year.

November is the worst month every year. It's why they do the road use surveys, as less people taking leave, all colleges in (and before drop outs), weather etc.

tom1ie

Deleted User wrote: »

Anyone? Surely it's more unsafe for a whole convoy of traffic to be doing 60 than it is to overtake in lane 1?

It’s hilarious to think certain people are advocating that someone driving in the right hand lane at 3am at 60kph can limit anyone else in the middle or left hand lane to this speed, as they would not be able to overtake them on the left hand side, on an otherwise empty m50! :eek: Idiocy!

Dravokivich

Dravokivich wrote: »

Surely why? A lot of people here reckon variable speed limits should be introduced to bring down the pace of traffic during heavy usage. (I reckon m50 pretty much does this itself from my own experience)

Drivers entering via the on ramp who have accelerated up to speed suddenly being confronted by a caravan doing half their speed
Traffic from behind similarly having to reduce speed and bunching up
The increased risks associated with more tightly knit traffic
Impatient people changing lanes etc. increasing risk of fender benders


Having different limits at certain sections or time bands is one thing, but common sense would dictate that a convoy moving at half the posted speed would be less desirable, I'd have thought?

Hurrache

If you're suddenly confronted by anything slow moving on the M50 when joining, it's not that slow moving vehicle's fault for just appearing.

I'm not talking about fault here. My point is that it would be less safe all round, I assume. It was my first reaction at least.

Edit to add: not just the M50, any motorway

cdaly_

Deleted User wrote: »

Anyone? Surely it's more unsafe for a whole convoy of traffic to be doing 60 than it is to overtake in lane 1?

Deleted User wrote: »

Drivers entering via the on ramp who have accelerated up to speed suddenly being confronted by a caravan doing half their speed
Traffic from behind similarly having to reduce speed and bunching up
The increased risks associated with more tightly knit traffic
Impatient people changing lanes etc. increasing risk of fender benders


Having different limits at certain sections or time bands is one thing, but common sense would dictate that a convoy moving at half the posted speed would be less desirable, I'd have thought?

You're referring to two different things here.

1. A convoy moving at 60kph will flow freely from end to end of the motorway, including merges and exits.

2. Vehicles trying to drive at speeds other than the convoy speed will quickly wreck the free flow.

If merging drivers were to match their speed to the 60kph convoy, many of the phantom traffic jams would disappear.

So it turns out to be safer for the motorway to convoy at 60kph and probably increases capacity.

magicbastarder

true, but with the volumes the M50 is carrying, the accordion effect will become vastly more prevalent, thus preventing free flow of traffic - even in the absence of merging or leaving traffic.

Dravokivich

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Drivers entering via the on ramp who have accelerated up to speed suddenly being confronted by a caravan doing half their speed
Traffic from behind similarly having to reduce speed and bunching up
The increased risks associated with more tightly knit traffic
Impatient people changing lanes etc. increasing risk of fender benders


Having different limits at certain sections or time bands is one thing, but common sense would dictate that a convoy moving at half the posted speed would be less desirable, I'd have thought?

I always watch the traffic I'm merging into and adjust accordingly. I don't blaze down the entry slip expecting tho slide in at full tilt.

Brock Turnpike

Dravokivich wrote: »

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Drivers entering via the on ramp who have accelerated up to speed suddenly being confronted by a caravan doing half their speed
Traffic from behind similarly having to reduce speed and bunching up
The increased risks associated with more tightly knit traffic
Impatient people changing lanes etc. increasing risk of fender benders


Having different limits at certain sections or time bands is one thing, but common sense would dictate that a convoy moving at half the posted speed would be less desirable, I'd have thought?

I always watch the traffic I'm merging into and adjust accordingly. I don't blaze down the entry slip expecting tho slide in at full tilt.

What an amatuer. You should be caning it as soon as you get the chance to open her up.

incentsitive

The above debate shows just how few of us understand how to drive on a motorway. Having said that, the motorways problems are too many cars, not how anyone drives.

micks_address

incentsitive wrote: »

The above debate shows just how few of us understand how to drive on a motorway. Having said that, the motorways problems are too many cars, not how anyone drives.

not having a go but genuinely interested in what is the 'right' way to drive on a motorway? especially somewhere like the m50 at 830 am at peak traffic times?

Lets saying joining and leaving the motorway and any overtaking

Thanks,
Michael

micks_address

micks_address wrote: »

not having a go but genuinely interested in what is the 'right' way to drive on a motorway? especially somewhere like the m50 at 830 am at peak traffic times?

Lets saying joining and leaving the motorway and any overtaking

Thanks,
Michael

For balance here's how i do it in the morning. I join the m1 after donnabate, usually stay in the left lane until i get to the m50, ill stay in the lane as i past the airport and usually break to let taxi's in and out - then there's usually late break for someone taking the m50 exit later than everyone else instead of continuing up the n32 slip..

ill join the m50 in the middle lane and nearly always im driving faster than traffic in the left lane so ill stick in the middle lane, ill drive pretty much all the way to past the toll beep and then ill start to switch to the left lane, as i pass the lucan exit ill merge over to the left again so im in the lane for exiting the m50 towards the n7... people will continue to merge infront of me right up to the exit to the n7. usually again there will be late breaking as someone decides to exit at the last second.. at this stage i expect it so it doesn't catch me out...

On the n7 traffic is moving pretty well so i will stick in the left lane till i get to the citywest exit...everyday i see cars join the m50 jump to the 'over taking' inside lane, cause everyone else to break, almost cause accidents, then a kilometer down the road merge back to the middle or left lane again almost causing accidents.. Cars will swerve from the right overtaking lane to the blanch exit with same results..

A lot of these cars exit at the n7.. and i often exit before them or at the same time. The difference is they have created a lot more risk for themselves and others by changing lanes to gain a couple of yards only to loose it down the road..

I'd subscribe to variable speed limits and the hope that everyone moving at 60 kph at peak time will be more efficient than some speeding and an accident happening that grinds the motorway to a halt..

There's a lot of undertaking high horse talking here.. but what do you do if the m50 is crawling and you are in the left lane and it moves a few yards ahead of the right lane? Are people suggesting you wait for the right lane to move and you don't undertake?

Anyhow.. here's looking forward to the new year and usually better traffic.

Cheers,
Mick

Maybe I'm not making myself clear here, so this is my last attempt:

If I'm driving in lane one at 119kph, and come across some numpty doing 60kph in lane three, with a clear road in all 3 lanes in front of them, I would be much more comfortable (as I feel it is safer) to just keep going.....as opposed to slowing to 60kph in the hope that he'll move over.

The act of slowing right down in either lane 1 or 2 carries far more risk of causing an accident than overtaking on the left, regardless of the RotR.

I'd go as far as wager that there's less than a handful of people on here who would not do the same.

mugsymugsy

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Maybe I'm not making myself clear here, so this is my last attempt:

If I'm driving in lane one at 119kph, and come across some numpty doing 60kph in lane three, with a clear road in all 3 lanes in front of them, I would be much more comfortable (as I feel it is safer) to just keep going.....as opposed to slowing to 60kph in the hope that he'll move over.

The act of slowing right down in either lane 1 or 2 carries far more risk of causing an accident than overtaking on the left, regardless of the RotR.

I'd go as far as wager that there's less than a handful of people on here who would not do the same.

If you are doing this on the M50 then you are breaking the speed limit

Dravokivich

Dravokivich wrote: »

I always watch the traffic I'm merging into and adjust accordingly. I don't blaze down the entry slip expecting tho slide in at full tilt.

I never said you or anybody else does otherwise.

cdaly_

Deleted User wrote: »

Maybe I'm not making myself clear here, so this is my last attempt:

If I'm driving in lane one at 119kph, and come across some numpty doing 60kph in lane three, with a clear road in all 3 lanes in front of them, I would be much more comfortable (as I feel it is safer) to just keep going.....as opposed to slowing to 60kph in the hope that he'll move over.

The act of slowing right down in either lane 1 or 2 carries far more risk of causing an accident than overtaking on the left, regardless of the RotR.

I'd go as far as wager that there's less than a handful of people on here who would not do the same.

I think you were clear enough initially and I don't doubt many people will do the same. In that circumstance, you're probably correct that overtaking on the left is not necessarily dangerous but you are still breaking the law by doing so (even within the speed limit).

Alun

mugsymugsy wrote: »

If you are doing this on the M50 then you are breaking the speed limit

Depends on which bit. From the M11 junction to Sandyford it's 120km/h.

Tazzimus

mugsymugsy wrote: »

If you are doing this on the M50 then you are breaking the speed limit

After J14 it's 120km/h, something most people forget when driving on it.

tom1ie

Deleted User wrote: »

Maybe I'm not making myself clear here, so this is my last attempt:

If I'm driving in lane one at 119kph, and come across some numpty doing 60kph in lane three, with a clear road in all 3 lanes in front of them, I would be much more comfortable (as I feel it is safer) to just keep going.....as opposed to slowing to 60kph in the hope that he'll move over.

The act of slowing right down in either lane 1 or 2 carries far more risk of causing an accident than overtaking on the left, regardless of the RotR.

I'd go as far as wager that there's less than a handful of people on here who would not do the same.

You are correct apart from breaking the speed limit on the majority of the m50 as the majority of the m50 is classed as an urban motorway.

tom1ie

cdaly_ wrote: »

I think you were clear enough initially and I don't doubt many people will do the same. In that circumstance, you're probably correct that overtaking on the left is not necessarily dangerous but you are still breaking the law by doing so (even within the speed limit).

(1) the law is dangerously wrong if this is the case.
(2) the r.s.a state that lane 1 is the driving lane and the middle and outer lanes are OVERTAKING lanes. If a car is driving at 60, 70,80 kph and not overtaking in the middle or outer lanes, then they are not adhering to motorway policy (as per the r.s.a)and therefore could be pulled over for dangerous driving.

Seth Brundle

Alun wrote: »

Depends on which bit. From the M11 junction to Sandyford it's 120km/h.

Tazzimus wrote: »

After J14 it's 120km/h, something most people forget when driving on it.

But not, as had been said, three lanes!

facehugger99

cdaly_ wrote: »

I think you were clear enough initially and I don't doubt many people will do the same. In that circumstance, you're probably correct that overtaking on the left is not necessarily dangerous but you are still breaking the law by doing so (even within the speed limit).

Never in all my years of driving have I can across anyone who would adhere to the law in those circumstances - thank Christ.

I'd consider anyone who would slow down in the driving lane to match the numpty in the outside lane to be a far more dangerous driver.

As I say, never actually come across it, which leads me to suspect it's only a thing that 'internet people' go on about

tom1ie

facehugger99 wrote: »

Never in all my years of driving have I can across anyone who would adhere to the law in those circumstances - thank Christ.

I'd consider anyone who would slow down in the driving lane to match the numpty in the outside lane to be a far more dangerous driver.

As I say, never actually come across it, which leads me to suspect it's only a thing that 'internet people' go on about

Totally agree. The lunatics on here who are advocating slowing down so that they don’t overtake the car doing 60kph in the right hand overtaking or middle lane are the ones causing the gridlock. I would like to address these people now:
“PLEASE TAKE UP CYCLING OR STICK TO PUBLIC TRANSPORT “. thanks very much. :pac:

incentsitive

Is the job which requires the misery of the M50 every day really worth it?
I mean, if you come down the M1 and go all the way to Sandyford or somewhere, could you not get a job in Swords or somewhere which would save €20 a week in tolls (almost 1k a year after tax), more in diesel, and even more in your state of mind?
I would want to be super well paid to do that every day.

ILikeBoats

incentsitive wrote: »

Is the job which requires the misery of the M50 every day really worth it?
I mean, if you come down the M1 and go all the way to Sandyford or somewhere, could you not get a job in Swords or somewhere which would save €20 a week in tolls (almost 1k a year after tax), more in diesel, and even more in your state of mind?
I would want to be super well paid to do that every day.

That's almost exactly what I did and for those reasons

ELM327

So this morning was awful too.Backed up from before J4 Clonee on the M3 all the way to lucan, took over 1 hour.

amcalester

incentsitive wrote: »

Is the job which requires the misery of the M50 every day really worth it?
I mean, if you come down the M1 and go all the way to Sandyford or somewhere, could you not get a job in Swords or somewhere which would save €20 a week in tolls (almost 1k a year after tax), more in diesel, and even more in your state of mind?
I would want to be super well paid to do that every day.

ILikeBoats wrote: »

That's almost exactly what I did and for those reasons

I travel down the M1 to J9 on the M50, and to be honest it's not worth it if you have to do it 5 days a week. Even 3 is pushing it, I like my job/company but if I had to be in the office every day I'd leave and take a paycut for a shorter commute.

Caliden

You could give the m50 5 lanes each way and it would still be gridlocked.

Public transport than doesn't involve me going from Dundrum all the way into town to get back out to Tallaght would be a start.

cdaly_

tom1ie wrote: »

(1) the law is dangerously wrong if this is the case.

Nope. The law is about road behaviour being predictable. If people adhere to the law then you know that you won't be overtaken on the left. You can therefore expect to be able to move left with relative ease. If people don't adhere to the law then you are more vulnerable as you drive because you have no idea what another driver will do. If you're sensible, you slow down to allow yourself more reaction time and, of course, that slows everyone else down.

(2) the r.s.a state that lane 1 is the driving lane and the middle and outer lanes are OVERTAKING lanes. If a car is driving at 60, 70,80 kph and not overtaking in the middle or outer lanes, then they are not adhering to motorway policy (as per the r.s.a)and therefore could be pulled over for dangerous driving.

Probably should be pulled over. Same as people not driving in bus lanes when they are not in operation. They're all breaking rules also...

cdaly_

tom1ie wrote: »

Totally agree. The lunatics on here who are advocating slowing down so that they don’t overtake the car doing 60kph in the right hand overtaking or middle lane are the ones causing the gridlock.

'cos you're totally exceeding 60kph anywhere on the M50 this morning eh?

I would like to address these people now:
“PLEASE TAKE UP CYCLING OR STICK TO PUBLIC TRANSPORT “. thanks very much. :pac:

You think I'm idiot enough to drive the M50? Traffic was mayhem this morning, I'd expect people's commute time was close to doubled. I cycled to work as usual and took the same amount of time as I always do...

loyatemu

Caliden wrote: »

You could give the m50 5 lanes each way and it would still be gridlocked.

Public transport than doesn't involve me going from Dundrum all the way into town to get back out to Tallaght would be a start.

there is a bus between Dundrum and Tallaght - the 75.

cdaly_

Caliden wrote: »

Public transport than doesn't involve me going from Dundrum all the way into town to get back out to Tallaght would be a start.

I presume the luas is reasonably predictable time wise? And there'll be orbital bus routes in BusConnects so you might get your wish.

gwalk

loyatemu wrote: »

there is a bus between Dundrum and Tallaght - the 75.

i wouldn't wish the 75 on my worst enemy, shambles of a bus

also the 175 now too

ohnonotgmail

tom1ie wrote: »

(1) the law is dangerously wrong if this is the case.
(2) the r.s.a state that lane 1 is the driving lane and the middle and outer lanes are OVERTAKING lanes. If a car is driving at 60, 70,80 kph and not overtaking in the middle or outer lanes, then they are not adhering to motorway policy (as per the r.s.a)and therefore could be pulled over for dangerous driving.

where exactly do the RSA state that driving in lanes 2 and 3 leaves a driver open to a charge of dangerous driving? bearing in mind that dangerous driving is a very serious charge.

josip

loyatemu wrote: »

there is a bus between Dundrum and Tallaght - the 75.

I thought there might be a bus from Dundrum to Tallaght so I've been searching.
I'm not bad at searching, but I've spent the past 30 minutes to no avail.

On the Dublin Bus website, I had to put in the stop where I was going from in Dundrum to the stop where I was going to in Tallaght. I tried a few of the obvious ones. All of the suggestions were to go via the city centre.
I then googled "Dublin Bus Route Map" and looked for image results.
Most of the hits are for Terenure Residents association and newspaper articles.
Does anyone do a PDF of bus routes?

30 years ago, the hardcopy dublin city map had all the bus routes marked on the streets that you could use to plan your journey, especially a cross city one
There's nothing like that available on the internet.
It's no surprise that the M50 is clogged when there is zero information regarding cross city public transport.

RayCun

Its not Dublin Bus
https://images-goaheadireland.passenger-website.com/downloads/Timetable%20175.pdf

CIARAN_BOYLE

josip wrote: »

I thought there might be a bus from Dundrum to Tallaght so I've been searching.
I'm not bad at searching, but I've spent the past 30 minutes to no avail.

On the Dublin Bus website, I had to put in the stop where I was going from in Dundrum to the stop where I was going to in Tallaght. I tried a few of the obvious ones. All of the suggestions were to go via the city centre.
I then googled "Dublin Bus Route Map" and looked for image results.
Most of the hits are for Terenure Residents association and newspaper articles.
Does anyone do a PDF of bus routes?

30 years ago, the hardcopy dublin city map had all the bus routes marked on the streets that you could use to plan your journey, especially a cross city one
There's nothing like that available on the internet.
It's no surprise that the M50 is clogged when there is zero information regarding cross city public transport.

try national transport authority. 75 isn't run by dublin bus since the tendering went through.