M50 - apalling gridlock

Dravokivich

LeinsterDub wrote: »

You achieve it my changing what in Dublin means. Metrolink would put swords in the heart of the the city. Dart expansion would make Maynooth the equivalent of Malahide today.

All well and good but, the M50 isn't blocked by people commuting from within the city. N11, N7, N4, M1 are all chock a block full of cars from surrounding counties, aiming for the M50 as the only major route way around the county. Add Bus Connects and they are still aiming for the M50 as that's where the transport hubs will be.

LeinsterDub

Dravokivich wrote: »

All well and good but, the M50 isn't blocked by people commuting from within the city. N11, N7, N4, M1 are all chock a block full of cars from surrounding counties, aiming for the M50 as the only major route way around the county. Add Bus Connects and they are still aiming for the M50 as that's where the transport hubs will be.

Motorways are interesting beasts. They'll perform perfectly up to a certain capacity and then a 1% change and the performance falls off a cliff. If you give the Dublin commuters options it helps everyone. BusConnects isn't going to use the M50 or be the hubs. While Blanch and Tallaght are touted to be hubs its not because they are on the M50

mugsymugsy

Whilst there is a large volume and it's over subscribed the bloody idiots chopping lanes, using slip roads as a 4th lane and coming back in late don't help.

The M50 hits the fan when there is an accident or a break down. If we can eradicate that first that would be a start.

Seth Brundle

Dravokivich wrote: »

All well and good but, the M50 isn't blocked by people commuting from within the city. N11, N7, N4, M1 are all chock a block full of cars from surrounding counties, aiming for the M50 as the only major route way around the county. Add Bus Connects and they are still aiming for the M50 as that's where the transport hubs will be.

You are seeing change as a Dublin thing: it should not be so. It needs to be a nationwide mindset change.
If you want to get to Dublin (or any other city) then use public transport. If you choose to use a car then you should be kept separate to public transport.
Enforced buslanes (with no taxis) outside of the M50!

hotmail.com

Seth Brundle wrote:

I now cycle to work twice a week and drive the other days (I really should be cycling every day). However, the attitude of other drivers towards me is scary. Some drivers will try and punish cyclists for using the road. Our mindset is firmly towards car = good and everythign else is bad. This needs to change as it's only going to get worse.

I seen a driver beeping like crazy at a cyclist along a city road because the driver couldn't get passed him quickly enough.

It must have been scary for the cyclist.

This beeping at cyclists is a daily thing now and it's very frustrating.

MarkHenderson

I work for an employer in Sandyford and i know for a fact they are now making it a priority to hire people who live within the area be it cycling/walking distance or Luas. One thing they have noticed is people that are making these 2hr commutes from outside Dublin are far less productive on the whole and far less likely to be in work on time on a daily basis. I'm one of the lucky ones as i live a mere 10 minutes walk from my workplace and i genuinely feel sorry for some of my workmates who are often mentally drained by the time they arrive in work.

Dravokivich

LeinsterDub wrote: »

Motorways are interesting beasts. They'll perform perfectly up to a certain capacity and then a 1% change and the orefor

It's nothing to do with it being a motorway. It's the only road around Dublin that bypassess all the towns and villages to get from north to south. The other options are Maynooth (With a small regional road), Leixlip (With a small regional road), Lucan (With a small regional road), Chapelizod (With a small regional road) and then the City itself.

Seth Brundle wrote: »

You are seeing change as a Dublin thing: it should not be so. It needs to be a nationwide mindset change.
If you want to get to Dublin (or any other city) then use public transport. If you choose to use a car then you should be kept separate to public transport.
Enforced buslanes (with no taxis) outside of the M50!

How am I, when I'm suggesting an issue regarding people coming from beyond the county, who may not be wanting to get to the city?

Tell me how

Seth Brundle wrote: »

You are seeing change as a Dublin thing: it should not be so. It needs to be a nationwide mindset change.
If you want to get to Dublin (or any other city) then use public transport. If you choose to use a car then you should be kept separate to public transport.
Enforced buslanes (with no taxis) outside of the M50!

It may come as a surprise to many but the rest of the country does not have the DART, LUAS or the frequency of Dublin Bus when it comes to considering public transport.

It definitely should be a nationwide strategy but lets maybe consider the pushing of jobs and people in to the bottle neck which is Dublin while so many other parts of the country see their populations and services drop.

How about utilising Shannon and Cork airports more as opposed to a second runway at Dublin? Would that not help reduce traffic on the M50?

LeinsterDub

Some people on this thread would be great in the NRA the solution to too much gun crime? More guns! The solution to too much traffic? More cars!

Seth Brundle

hotmail.com wrote: »

I seen a driver beeping like crazy at a cyclist along a city road because the driver couldn't get passed him quickly enough.

It must have been scary for the cyclist.

This beeping at cyclists is a daily thing now and it's very frustrating.

Beeping isn't bad compared to some other stuff...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vkcmkq1kmgU

LeinsterDub

Dravokivich wrote: »

It's nothing to do with it being a motorway. It's the only road around Dublin that bypassess all the towns and villages to get from north to south. The other options are Maynooth (With a small regional road), Leixlip (With a small regional road), Lucan (With a small regional road), Chapelizod (With a small regional road) and then the City itself.



How am I, when I'm suggesting an issue regarding people coming from beyond the county, who may not be wanting to get to the city?

How many people are realistically making that journey everyday? If you remove or mitigate the Dublin traffic then the North -South traffic will flow

tomplate

It would be cheaper to push jobs out of the city than fix the transport issues

Infini

It would probably make far more sense rather than build another motorway on top of the M50 to start building actual heavy rail NOT Light Rail or Metro connections and invest heavily in the rail network in Dublin including the DU project, convert the "Metro" to a subway and add another line out the Northwest/Southwest along with serious infrastructural overhauling of the existing Dart. Have some of them terminate at park and ride facilities outside the M50 or on/next to the M1/3/4/7.

I know people moan and winge about the Dart etc but lets face it politicians and planners are too short term thinking and Rail can soak up a huge amount of people and take a huge chunk of cars off the road given proper investment and planning but its exactly those 2 that have always been lacking. Buses arent enough theyre hampered heavily by the setup of Dublin itself.

If rail connections are quick enough then you can take almost all non commercial traffic out of the city center or ban it bar for those who need it for working shift work and have to drive there.

Dravokivich

LeinsterDub wrote: »

Some people on this thread would be great in the NRA the solution to too much gun crime? More guns! The solution to too much traffic? More cars!

I'm not saying more cars. It's where are they going to go? If you only give them one choice, that's the only route they'll take. Don't be surprised to see it clogged up.

The only major projects being pursued to enhance Public Transport for Dublin, is not focused on people coming from outside Dublin. Which I'd expect is leading to most of this congestion.

LeinsterDub wrote: »

How many people are realistically making that journey everyday? If you remove or mitigate the Dublin traffic then the North -South traffic will flow

Every day in the morning I see the N4/M4 blocked from Liffey Valley to Maynooth.

I see the N7 upto the Red Cow (I live by there) and hear of the M7 from collegues commuting from Thurles, being blocked for considerable sections even before they started to the widening project and reduced speed to 60km/h.

I used to hear very frequeint traffic reports about the M1, and had a lot of visibility of it as I used to commute in the area until this summer, for 12 months previous. I've seen people turnback onto the M1 outbound, prior to Collins Ave junction.

The N11 was always refrenced on the radio too.

There's a large amount of people commuting into the county from these roads, which all lead onto the M50.

Seth Brundle

Tell me how wrote: »

It may come as a surprise to many but the rest of the country does not have the DART, LUAS or the frequency of Dublin Bus when it comes to considering public transport.

If those who live in rural areas want to come to Dublin, Galway, Cork or wherever then they hop on a bus or train somewhere along the way and travel.
Alternatively they could drive and put up with the crap traffic.
It should be a no brainer but because of mindsets like yours, our politicians have not helped deliver sustainable transport yet.

LeinsterDub

Dravokivich wrote: »

I'm not saying more cars. It's where are they going to go? If you only give them one choice, that's the only route they'll take. Don't be surprised to see it clogged up.

The only major projects being pursued to enhance Public Transport for Dublin, is not focused on people coming from outside Dublin. Which I'd expect is leading to most of this congestion.

Building Motorways leads to more cars . Dart Expansion is focused on people coming from outside Dublin

Tell me how

Seth Brundle wrote: »

If those who live in rural areas want to come to Dublin, Galway, Cork or wherever then they hop on a bus or train somewhere along the way and travel.
Alternatively they could drive and put up with the crap traffic.
It should be a no brainer but because of mindsets like yours, our politicians have not helped deliver sustainable transport yet.

And here we are. Pray tell how my mindset (however you determined what that is) has impacted on sustainable transport.

Try and do this with the knowledge that the whole country must be served by our politicians not just those within the M50.

JustShay

Are hovercrafts not a thing yet? .... -stares into the sky-

LeinsterDub

Tell me how wrote: »

How about utilising Shannon and Cork airports more as opposed to a second runway at Dublin? Would that not help reduce traffic on the M50?

I don't see how the second runway would cause anything but a tiny percent of traffic on the M50 and any increase would be negated by MetroLink

Seth Brundle

Tell me how wrote: »

And here we are. Pray tell how my mindset (however you determined what that is) has impacted on sustainable transport.

Try and do this with the knowledge that the whole country must be served by our politicians not just those within the M50.

Firstly I made my point in terms of cities and didn't mention the M50.
Secondly, you effectively dismissed the proposal because there isn't a luas or bus near you.

Sustainable transport is probably the quickest solution available to commuters but many of them are reluctant to make the switch.
Think outside the box!

Tell me how

LeinsterDub wrote: »

I don't see how the second runway would cause anything but a tiny percent of traffic on the M50 and any increase would be negated by MetroLink

I'm more suggesting that utilising the other airports more would reduce the traffic than specifically suggesting that the second runway would increase it.

That being said, would the second runway not increase it because as soon as it is built, the airport will look to optimise the potential of both airports (as is understandable).

RayCun

Tell me how wrote: »

How about utilising Shannon and Cork airports more as opposed to a second runway at Dublin? Would that not help reduce traffic on the M50?

Who exactly should use the regional airports more?

Should people from Kildare or Meath travel to Cork and fly from there? That would reduce traffic on the M50.

facehugger99

abitofacomedian wrote: »

Can't let this myth go unremarked on. Dublin is not a low density city, Dublin is medium density and compares to similar sized European cities such as Amsterdam, Copenhagen, Munich etc. All of which support a more comprehensive rail based public transport network than we currently do.

Irish Cycle did a good article on it:
http://irishcycle.com/2015/11/03/is-dublin-a-low-density-city/

My point still stands - if you want the most bang for your buck, buses can move the most people on existing infrastructure (or at least with minor modifications) compared to an expensive rail based system which will have a very long delivery time too. But, hey, people don't like buses and people love trains

LeinsterDub wrote: »

In a thread that a suggested building a M50 on top of the M50 that's quite the claim.

Metro plus dart expansion would help greatly. Constantly building roads has failed its time to look at alternatives

Given that I neither suggested building an upper deck to the M50 or indeed building more roads, I'm not sure what point you're actually rebutting.

LeinsterDub

Dravokivich wrote: »

I
Every day in the morning I see the N4/M4 blocked from Liffey Valley to Maynooth.

I see the N7 upto the Red Cow (I live by there) and hear of the M7 from collegues commuting from Thurles, being blocked for considerable sections even before they started to the widening project and reduced speed to 60km/h.

I used to hear very frequeint traffic reports about the M1, and had a lot of visibility of it as I used to commute in the area until this summer, for 12 months previous. I've seen people turnback onto the M1 outbound, prior to Collins Ave junction.

The N11 was always refrenced on the radio too.

There's a large amount of people commuting into the county from these roads, which all lead onto the M50.

The vast majority going to Dublin

.......

Everyone in my workplace who drives to work also goes elsewhere in the working day in their car, be it the gym in the morning before work, shopping at lunchtime, or something afterwards before they go home.

Not one of them, including me, would switch to public transport because it simply wouldnt be feasible to tote a gym bag plus laptop plus lunch plus grocery shopping etc on public transport to and from work/gym and shops daily.

All the people who are advocating more public transport must travel light to work and not go too far from the office during the working day?

Tell me how

Seth Brundle wrote: »

Firstly I made my point in terms of cities and didn't mention the M50.
Secondly, you effectively dismissed the proposal because there isn't a luas or bus near you.

Sustainable transport is probably the quickest solution available to commuters but many of them are reluctant to make the switch.
Think outside the box!

You mentioned getting to other cities. Check out the difficulty for example in people from Nenagh getting to Limerick City by Train in time to start work.

Look at the size of county clare and the small sliver that is covered from Ennis - Shannon and on to Limerick. Public transport in the rest of the county is really only feasible for social journeys. I don't like the idea that we try to move people out of the towns and villages in these areas simply because it is easier to manage everyone in one place.

Check out my post from earlier. Some of these are definitely outside the box.

Tell me how wrote: »

Flexible working hours or working from home.
Innovation fund to develop ride sharing app
Tax breaks or toll reduction for designated ride sharing users
Incentives to companies to move out of Dublin
Encourage private bus operators to run park and ride or regular bus stop connect
Penalise users of bus lanes
Encourage more cycling by putting in adequate facilities
Increase incentive value of bike to work scheme

Tell me how

....... wrote: »

Everyone in my workplace who drives to work also goes elsewhere in the working day in their car, be it the gym in the morning before work, shopping at lunchtime, or something afterwards before they go home.

Not one of them, including me, would switch to public transport because it simply wouldnt be feasible to tote a gym bag plus laptop plus lunch plus grocery shopping etc on public transport to and from work/gym and shops daily.

All the people who are advocating more public transport must travel light to work and not go too far from the office during the working day?

How does it work in other countries?

Personally, I'd love to cycle as much as possible within reasonable distances and with panniers and racks, it is entirely feasible to do so. But, the facilities need to be provided for.

LeinsterDub

tomplate wrote: »

It would be cheaper to push jobs out of the city than fix the transport issues

Do tell how you're going to get multinationals to move to the sticks?

greenwaving

....... wrote: »

Everyone in my workplace who drives to work also goes elsewhere in the working day in their car, be it the gym in the morning before work, shopping at lunchtime, or something afterwards before they go home.

Not one of them, including me, would switch to public transport because it simply wouldnt be feasible to tote a gym bag plus laptop plus lunch plus grocery shopping etc on public transport to and from work/gym and shops daily.

All the people who are advocating more public transport must travel light to work and not go too far from the office during the working day?

You need to look into getting a different bag then. A large grocery shop may be difficult (but I am assuming this needs to be once a week at most) but gym gear and lunch etc is easy if you have the right bag/backpack. I wear cycling outfit to travel and take my gym gear in a backpack with my lunch, work clothes (including shoes) and laptop - I travel by train and bike from outside Dublin (it is possible!). Granted a little forward planning in terms of effective packing and a good backpack with a lighter laptop helps but it is entirely feasible.

Dardania

A solution no one else has suggested in the thread: Just wait for the next economic recession. Less people will be driving, or people will be more likely to care share. That'll ease traffic significantly.

Seth Brundle

....... wrote: »

Everyone in my workplace who drives to work also goes elsewhere in the working day in their car, be it the gym in the morning before work, shopping at lunchtime, or something afterwards before they go home.

Not one of them, including me, would switch to public transport because it simply wouldnt be feasible to tote a gym bag plus laptop plus lunch plus grocery shopping etc on public transport to and from work/gym and shops daily.

All the people who are advocating more public transport must travel light to work and not go too far from the office during the working day?

The solution to our traffic problem is to encourage people out of their cars and to use other sustainable forms of transport be it bus, train, tram, bike, walk...

If you continue to choose the car then you should have the lowest priority at lights, etc. Currently the quays along the liffey in Dublin are a nightmare because of cars. Some changes have been made but this was against huge opposition to car park owners. Why are our councils even listening to them?

Nobody is saying that you and your colleagues can't use your cars. It just shouldn't be the first choice given the amount of roadspace required to carry say 10 people compared to say a bus.
I've cycled to work with my work clothes in a bag on my back. I've also had a laptop with me and on some occasions I've had a few freebies from work in another bag. I somehow survived the ordeal!
Incidentally, if your colleagues cycled to work, they probably wouldn't need the gym!

LeinsterDub

....... wrote: »

Not one of them, including me, would switch to public transport because it simply wouldnt be feasible to tote a gym bag plus laptop plus lunch plus grocery shopping etc on public transport to and from work/gym and shops daily.

I need my car so I can drive to the gym to get fit . If only there was a way to combining my commute and getting fit ...

Tell me how

LeinsterDub wrote: »

Do tell how you're going to get multinationals to move to the sticks?

It definitely isn't easy. But, why would they not?

Beckman Coulter is located near Tulla in Clare. Castlebar and WEstport have international businesses located in their towns. So too, Sligo, Nenagh, Clonmel. Mallow, Naas, Tralee etc.

It is incredibly frustrating to think of people flowing in to Dublin in the morning for service industry type roles which could be delivered from any geographical location. The frustration is largely born out of seeing large portions of the rest of the country suffering from falling populations.

I love Dublin, but encouraging companies to locate in Portarlington or Portlaoise (both on IRE Train line) could benefit many if it were successful.

(This is why the Athenry data centre collapse was a disaster on a national scale).

Seth Brundle

Tell me how wrote: »

Personally, I'd love to cycle as much as possible within reasonable distances and with panniers and racks, it is entirely feasible to do so. But, the facilities need to be provided for.

...and that's part of my point.
We have very little cycling infrastructure in any of our cities. I'm deliberately ignoring the crappy cycle tracks because, well they're crappy!
Currently cycle paths are designed as a measure to clear the road for cars. Our thinking is arseways and it's no wonder so many adults are overweight!

Idbatterim

they could and should have fitted in another lane when upgrading it, metrolink is nearly a decade away, if it gets built! I totally agree that more roads leads to more traffic, but as the transport here is so **** and fixing it will take years, they should have added an extra lane...

LeinsterDub

Tell me how wrote: »

I love Dublin, but encouraging companies to locate in Portarlington or Portlaoise (both on IRE Train line) could benefit many if it were successful.

(This is why the Athenry data centre collapse was a disaster on a national scale).

We can and should be encouraging and we can and have been since the foundation of the IDA if not the state. However these companies will go where they thing matches their needs most.

Seth Brundle

Idbatterim wrote: »

they could and should have fitted in another lane when upgrading it, metrolink is nearly a decade away, if it gets built! I totally agree that more roads leads to more traffic, but as the transport here is so **** and fixing it will take years, they should have added an extra lane...

Motorway exits would still be the same width though...

metricspaces

Seth Brundle wrote: »

The solution to our traffic problem is to encourage people out of their cars and to use other sustainable forms of transport be it bus, train, tram, bike, walk...!

It's one solution, not the only solution.

Dublin by design will not be a county where the majority of drivers can move to public transport any time soon. So we need to live in reality to come up with any solutions that will have any short to medium term impact.

Office hub buildings. Working from home. Staggering starting times for schools and work places. Reducing tolls at say 5am and gradually increasing fee to say 9am. These are things which will have an immediate effect.

Nermal

Tell me how wrote: »

I love Dublin, but encouraging companies to locate in Portarlington or Portlaoise (both on IRE Train line) could benefit many if it were successful.

We've been encouraging them to do so for decades. They don't want to, they want to be in cities. It's time to stop wasting Dublin's money on Portarlington and Portlaoise and spend it on Dublin infrastructure.

Macy0161

facehugger99 wrote: »

My point still stands - if you want the most bang for your buck, buses can move the most people on existing infrastructure (or at least with minor modifications) compared to an expensive rail based system which will have a very long delivery time too. But, hey, people don't like buses and people love trains

And quicker delivery of buses, potentially at least. Some of the reasons people don't like buses are capacity issues too.

Hard Shoulders on the M1, M/N11, M50 (enforced), plus lots of buses and new park and rides would be quicker than driving.

Access and Capacity are the two main things imo, and experience.

....... wrote: »

Everyone in my workplace who drives to work also goes elsewhere in the working day in their car, be it the gym in the morning before work, shopping at lunchtime, or something afterwards before they go home.

Not one of them, including me, would switch to public transport because it simply wouldnt be feasible to tote a gym bag plus laptop plus lunch plus grocery shopping etc on public transport to and from work/gym and shops daily.

All the people who are advocating more public transport must travel light to work and not go too far from the office during the working day?

The only thing I see potentially an issue with any of that on a bike is bike security parking at the gym, work or shopping centre (which is something that could be addressed).

A bike with pannier rack and bags, none of that carrying is an issue in my experience. Bike security is my only concern.

LeinsterDub

metricspaces wrote: »

Dublin by design will not be a county where the majority of drivers can move to public transport any time soon. So we need to live in reality to come up with any solutions that will have any short to medium term impact..

So a massive investment in cycling ? It can be achieved in the short term and very cost effectively

.......

LeinsterDub wrote: »

I need my car so I can drive to the gym to get fit . If only there was a way to combining my commute and getting fit ...

Much too far to cycle for most people in the office.

Im talking commutes from Naas/Blanchardstown/Artane/Bray to Dun Laoghaire. A couple of people do cycle in from Lucan/Tallaght. Not for the faint hearted I am told.

I used to cycle to my last job - about a 6k journey - I hated every minute of it and was terrified on the retro fitted cycle lanes on narrow roads. I certainly wouldnt do it for my current commute (about a 20k journey).

Plus cycling is only one aspect of staying fit - its going to do shag all for a weight lifting program.

tomplate

LeinsterDub wrote: »

We can and should be encouraging and we can and have been since the foundation of the IDA if not the state. However these companies will go where they thing matches their needs most.

That's the problem we've only been encouraging them as you say

You have to use a carrot and stick approach to the problem

.......

Macy0161 wrote: »

The only thing I see potentially an issue with any of that on a bike is bike security parking at the gym, work or shopping centre (which is something that could be addressed).

A bike with pannier rack and bags, none of that carrying is an issue in my experience. Bike security is my only concern.

Maybe if you enjoy cycling. I dont. I hate it.

Plus most of my colleagues live too far away for cycling to work to be feasible.

Seth Brundle

metricspaces wrote: »

It's one solution, not the only solution.

Dublin by design will not be a county where the majority of drivers can move to public transport any time soon. So we need to live in reality to come up with any solutions that will have any short to medium term impact.

Why not?

metricspaces wrote: »

Office hub buildings. Working from home. Staggering starting times for schools and work places. Reducing tolls at say 5am and gradually increasing fee to say 9am. These are things which will have an immediate effect.

It's all been looked at before but the reality is that loads of people want to travel the city at the same time and want everyone else to change.
We've discussed staggered times for schools and offices before and you cant change them significantly that there would be a noticable change. Increasing tolls will just encourage people to drive throguh the city and suburbs making those places even worse. Doubtful that it will improve the M50 a great deal though!

LeinsterDub

....... wrote: »

Much too far to cycle for most people in the office.

Im talking commutes from Blanchardstown/Artane/Bray to Dun Laoghaire. A couple of people do cycle in from Lucan/Tallaght. Not for the faint hearted I am told.

Bray to Dun Laoghair : Dart
Lucan/Tallaght: Luas

....... wrote: »

I used to cycle to my last job - about a 6k journey - I hated every minute of it and was terrified on the retro fitted cycle lanes on narrow roads. I certainly wouldnt do it for my current commute (about a 20k journey).

Plus cycling is only one aspect of staying fit - its going to do shag all for a weight lifting program.

Anything inside the M50 is less than a 35 minute cycle to OCS. Fund e bikes you could do your 20K in less than an hour.

hotmail.com

This isn't a solution but people that drive could leave for work 15 to 20 minutes earlier than they usually do.

A lot of collisions and aggressiveness on the roads is down to people being late and stressed out. Leaving that bit early will help to ease that stress.

LeinsterDub

tomplate wrote: »

That's the problem we've only been encouraging them as you say

You have to use a carrot and stick approach to the problem

Google and the likes will tell you where to stick your stick

Idbatterim

I saw electric scooters being advertised earlier, they need to allow them. One thing that I find total idiocy, they need large parks and rides just outside the M50, for heavy rail and bus interchanges, I live in the west of the city, I would contemplate ditching car if practical when going down the country, but I am sure as hell not going to go back into the city centre on our crap transport, to go out the same direction later, its totally impractical...

RayCun

....... wrote: »

Everyone in my workplace who drives to work also goes elsewhere in the working day in their car, be it the gym in the morning before work, shopping at lunchtime, or something afterwards before they go home.

Maybe its true in your workplace, but it isn't true of anywhere I've ever worked.

Sure, sometimes people have something to carry that makes the car useful, but most of the time it's just them.

Or they have stuff in the car because they have the car anyway so it is convenient to carry the extra stuff - but if they weren't going to be in the car they'd arrange things so they didn't need to carry so much stuff. (Using a locker in the gym or at work, doing a smaller shop on the way home, etc)