M50 - apalling gridlock

jasper100

tom1ie wrote: »

Honest question here, but on what grounds is cycling not for everyone?
Are we talking people who have a disability?
People who have a 20 km cycle?

Suppose you want to go to the supermarket on the way home?

In any case regarding the m50 I would say most people use it are travelling more than 20km. Thats a decent cycle.

Less than 5k is probably doable on bike or on foot for most people, I would think.

Tazzimus

tom1ie wrote: »

Honest question here, but on what grounds is cycling not for everyone?
Are we talking people who have a disability?
People who have a 20 km cycle?

40km cycle each way, the need for a car if I need to go to a customer site with equipment or myself for last minute cover, useless shower in work

magicbastarder

at one point, i was working on a team of seven people (based in sandyford) and i was the only team member not using the M50 to get to the office. and the funny thing was, none of the six lads who were, were paying tolls. they were all entering and leaving south of the west link. hardly fair on someone who, for example, would be driving from blanchardstown to park west, so at most would be on it for two junctions worth.

RayCun

Less than 5k is easily doable on foot. Less than 10k is very doable by bike.

Seth Brundle

Dravokivich wrote: »

I commute from Clondalkin to Leixlip. It's a nightmare using public transport. Bus Connects doesn't solve it either. So I drive as a result. Been without a car for all of november and the commute takes 2 -> 2.5 hours.

The 76a goes from Tallaght to Blanch passing Ckondalkin. If you get off at Liffey Valley you can head down to the N4 and get the 66/a/b to Leixlip. I've done it in the past and it's grand.
76a times aren't hectic but there may be other services that I just can't think of.

Irish Steve

ED E wrote: »

A simple first step: Close the DCC staff carpark.

And remove all garda escorts from Ministers and the like, and close the Dail car parks as well. That might focus some attention

MarkHenderson

RayCun wrote: »

Less than 5k is easily doable on foot. Less than 10k is very doable by bike.

If you are young and fit yes.

RayCun

MarkHenderson wrote: »

If you are young and fit yes.

I'm not that young

There are also electric bikes which make cycling easier.

tom1ie

jasper100 wrote: »

Suppose you want to go to the supermarket on the way home?

In any case regarding the m50 I would say most people use it are travelling more than 20km. Thats a decent cycle.

Less than 5k is probably doable on bike or on foot for most people, I would think.

Do food shopping online, if not a rucksack or panier bags (saddle bags) for the bike can hold some shopping.

tom1ie

Tazzimus wrote: »

40km cycle each way, the need for a car if I need to go to a customer site with equipment or myself for last minute cover, useless shower in work

40km each way is too far.
Cycling is not gonna suit if you might need to go out and about in your course of work.
The shower thing should be brought up with your employer.
Employers have a duty of care towards their employees and if that necessitates appropriate showering facilities to accommodate commuters, then so be it.

tom1ie

MarkHenderson wrote: »

If you are young and fit yes.

So in Amsterdam and Copenhagen and other European cities, do they just stop cycling once a certain age is reached?
That's a crap attitude.

tom1ie

Cienciano wrote: »

Bringing kids to school. Having to go to different places during the day. Having to do stuff on the way home. Pick up kids. Having no shower at work

Bike trailers can be got for bikes to carry young kids, kids can cycle themselves when they're older.
Second point, fair enough cycling just won't suit.
Having no shower at work is something you need to take up with your employer, these facilities should be encouraged.

LeinsterDub

jasper100 wrote: »

Suppose you want to go to the supermarket on the way home?

In any case regarding the m50 I would say most people use it are travelling more than 20km. Thats a decent cycle.

Less than 5k is probably doable on bike or on foot for most people, I would think.

I've often popped into the supermarket on the way home on the bike. Not a full weeks shop but if I got a second bag I would be able to.

Tell me how

Cienciano wrote: »

Bringing kids to school. Having to go to different places during the day. Having to do stuff on the way home. Pick up kids. Having no shower at work

Not saying it's easy or that everyone should be doing this but this shows just what is possible.

Big reason why this lady can transport her and her children like this is infrastructure.

Can't happen overnight, but facilitating cycling should be a priority within towns and cities.

Cleaner for environment
Healthier
Faster

Why wouldn't this be promoted?

AndrewJRenko

jasper100 wrote: »

Suppose you want to go to the supermarket on the way home?

In any case regarding the m50 I would say most people use it are travelling more than 20km. Thats a decent cycle.

Less than 5k is probably doable on bike or on foot for most people, I would think.

Cienciano wrote: »

Bringing kids to school. Having to go to different places during the day. Having to do stuff on the way home. Pick up kids. Having no shower at work

Indeed, how could anyone be expected to transport kids or shopping by bikes?


https://dutchbikeshop.ie/babboe-mini-e/

no.8

tom1ie wrote:

So in Amsterdam and Copenhagen and other European cities, do they just stop cycling once a certain age is reached? That's a crap attitude.

Pure laziness really, that mindset.

Tell me how

https://twitter.com/stevenrmitch/status/1067550933108674560?s=19

Goldengirl

This post has been deleted.

Macha

You can't forget landuse planning goes hand in hand with transport planning.

Dublin's sprawl of semi-ds and very few apartment blocks is not just the root cause of the housing crisis, its also the cause of excessive road traffic.

I live in Brussels and I am almost never the only one waiting at a bus stop. Can't say the same in Dublin. Why? Higher density living.

Chris_5339762

tom1ie wrote: »

The shower thing should be brought up with your employer.
Employers have a duty of care towards their employees and if that necessitates appropriate showering facilities to accommodate commuters, then so be it.

Reality however, states that employers couldn't give a fiddlers about how you get to work and back, or how long it takes you. So long as you're there on time. They wouldn't spend a penny on showers for staff.

magicbastarder

my employer has provided secure bike locking, lockers, a drying room, and showers. as have other employers too.
don't forget that many of said employers have to get to work too, so they have a stake in how easy it is to get to the job.

appledrop

This week was the worst ever on M50. It's wasn't just M50 that was a nightmare but M1 aswell. I have a long commute + by Thursday evening I was exhausted from it all. There is no alternative route or public transport for me so I'm stuck with this. Yes traffic volumes have increased but the biggest issue is breakdowns and minor collisions. I'm doing this drive 15 years + only once have I ever needed to pull in. People should be fined if they breakdown on motorway. I'm telling you it would work. About 80% of times it trucks or lorries causing mayhem. If not roadworthy shouldn't be allowed on motorway. Similarly way too slow moving collision to hard shoulder when cars barely tip each other. While working from home not an option from me this would help if other people able to. Friday morning usually less traffic I'd assume less people on road, although the last 3 Friday evenings have also been a nightmare.

MarkHenderson

Promote and incentivise motorcycling as a means of transport. 75% of people i see in cars are single people hogging the roads. You can fit four motorbikes/scooters in the same space as a car. Presently Ireland is the only EU country that charges VAT on motorcycle safety gear we could start there. No needs for showers in workplace as no physical effort required and takes no more space really than a cyclist. Requires less parking in workplaces also.

MarkHenderson

magicbastarder wrote: »

my employer has provided secure bike locking, lockers, a drying room, and showers. as have other employers too.
don't forget that many of said employers have to get to work too, so they have a stake in how easy it is to get to the job.

You'd be lucky to get a new kettle from some employers never mind the things you have listed.

SPDUB

magicbastarder wrote: »

my employer has provided secure bike locking, lockers, a drying room, and showers. as have other employers too.
.

My employer also has those facilities but it was recently thinking of moving to a location badly served by public transport and a lot further for anyone cycling

If that move happens it would be a lot handier for me to drive to work than cycle as I currently do .

Chris_5339762

MarkHenderson wrote: »

You'd be lucky to get a new kettle from some employers never mind the things you have listed.

And yes, I could move jobs and have an employer that provides these things. But I'm in the public service and we can't get any new chairs for the office due to budget cuts let alone showers!

tom1ie

Chris_5339762 wrote: »

And yes, I could move jobs and have an employer that provides these things. But I'm in the public service and we can't get any new chairs for the office due to budget cuts let alone showers!

Public service should be at forefront of this push. Just shows you how concerned the government are with climate change, health, traffic and mental health to be honest. Cycling would help combat all of the above problems and our ministers couldnt give two hoots. I mean look at our minister for transport, he’s fighting the bus connects plans ffs!!:mad:

road_high

The answers is public transport of course. Massive investment in high capacity metro lines to make it a no brainer for people to want to leave their cars

AndrewJRenko

Chris_5339762 wrote: »

Reality however, states that employers couldn't give a fiddlers about how you get to work and back, or how long it takes you. So long as you're there on time. They wouldn't spend a penny on showers for staff.

Some planning authorities like Fingal, require these facilities at all new workplaces. It's a good approach.

I wonder how many people ask about these facilities during recruitment? That would send a clear signal.

AndrewJRenko

Chris_5339762 wrote: »

Reality however, states that employers couldn't give a fiddlers about how you get to work and back, or how long it takes you. So long as you're there on time. They wouldn't spend a penny on showers for staff.

Some planning authorities like Fingal, require these facilities at all new workplaces. It's a good approach.

I wonder how many people ask about these facilities during recruitment? That would send a clear signal.

MarkHenderson

road_high wrote: »

The answers is public transport of course. Massive investment in high capacity metro lines to make it a no brainer for people to want to leave their cars

It's part of the solution, not the whole answer. Also it's going to be 15-20 years away maybe even further before we see the first metro line completed in Dublin.

Also if we see FG continue with their policy to bring an extra million people into Ireland by 2030 (and let's face it at least half of that will end up in Dublin) then we will see the city come to a standstill as the M50 has from 6am until 9pm on every workday.

Iv'e already noticed the mental health issues on people making massive commutes in my workplace as many are now driving 20 hrs per week just to get in and out of the job compared to half that time 5 years ago.

spacetweek

- Traffic and roads go in a circle - building the M50 enabled a big expansion in development along it, which created more traffic. Widening the M50 in the 2000s made it easier to drive on it for a while, which generated more traffic
- No public transport runs along an equivalent route.
- Building another M50 further out wouldn't be useful as most traffic is only going from e.g. Airport to Tallaght or Blanch to Sandyford. You can't expect motorists to drive all the way out to Maynooth, use the new road, then all the way back in again.
- Incident response and preparing for weather aren't great in Ireland. When it snowed last year we nearly had bread riots. A minor crash on the M50 delays traffic for 3 hours.

Carbon taxes aren't relevant as they are about transitioning from fuel cars to electric cars which won't reduce traffic on the M50. It will reduce pollution and noise but not traffic.

Answers?
Supply side:
- Automated driving may enable more traffic to be carried in the same space.
- Expansion of feeder roads to the junctions.
- Crashes dealt with within 15-20 mins.
Demand side:
- Metro West, the project to build a Metro between Tallaght, Blanch and the Airport. But it needs to be built as a full, possibly underground line, or else the journey time would be too slow.
- Employment centres in suburbs to have a comprehensive system of safe cycle lanes leading to and from nearby residential areas.
- Reduce employment in suburbs and increase in the centre which is better served by public transport.
- Consider converting shopping malls into car-free mixed use developments. Instead of a megamall like Blanch Centre, a development with residential, offices and shops and removal of most of the car parking. People who want to shop in the area from outside are not permitted to drive there.

ozzy jr

....... wrote: »

Why not build another M50 on top of the M50? Remove the meridian and allow all lower deck traffic to travel South and all upper deck to travel North. In a stroke you would more than double the capacity of the road without having to use up more land for it. Elevated highways work fine in other countries.

I watched a programme on the construction of Hong Kong airport. Part of the development was to build an 8 lane highway on top of an already in operation 8 lane highway. They built it without closing the road below.

I know it's fantasy stuff in Ireland, but from an engineering point of view, would such a project be possible on the M50?

OldMrBrennan83

Cyclists need to realise that not everyone wants to be a cyclist.

appledrop

road_high wrote: »

The answers is public transport of course. Massive investment in high capacity metro lines to make it a no brainer for people to want to leave their cars

This is not the answer for M50. If your travelling from M1 + coming off at Liffey Valley exit there is no public transport route you can take. This won't change with metro line etc. Yes public transport helps for people who commute to Dublin City Centre but really that's it.

Cienciano

tom1ie wrote: »

Bike trailers can be got for bikes to carry young kids, kids can cycle themselves when they're older.
Second point, fair enough cycling just won't suit.
Having no shower at work is something you need to take up with your employer, these facilities should be encouraged.

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

Indeed, how could anyone be expected to transport kids or shopping by bikes?


https://dutchbikeshop.ie/babboe-mini-e/

Lol, you seriously think that's a viable option? I think that's why a lot of people don't take cyclists seriously. I could take 2 kids to school on my bike with a trailer, with their gym gear and school bags, then do the commute across the city on the bike. I could use the trailer to pick up food. Or i could drive and the whole thing would take 20 minutes. Not sure guys are living in the real world.

appledrop

Fair play to those on motorbikes but I have seen too many episodes of 24 hours in a&e + know how dangerous they are.

Idbatterim

The cost of that would be astronomical I.e another few lanes over the m50, far better off building the eastern bypass and the idiots should have put in an extra lane when upgrading it ... I think that could still be done, without massive disruption or cost ...

Tell me how

Cienciano wrote: »

Lol, you seriously think that's a viable option? I think that's why a lot of people don't take cyclists seriously. I could take 2 kids to school on my bike with a trailer, with their gym gear and school bags, then do the commute across the city on the bike. I could use the trailer to pick up food. Or i could drive and the whole thing would take 20 minutes. Not sure guys are living in the real world.

The point is that in most cases it will not take 20 minutes. That is the real world.

It doesn't have to be all or nothing. But there should be appropriate consideration of the mode of transport.

Tazzimus

Patww79 wrote: »

Cyclists need to realise that not everyone wants to be a cyclist.

This.
I have no intentions of becoming a cyclist as there is huge contempt between them and motorists, both sides being at blame here.


Some motorists tend to be oblivious to anything that's not a car (and even some are oblivious to that) while some cyclists think they own the road (countless times I've nearly been mowed down by a cyclist breaking a red light as I cross the road)

Cycling is not the be all solution for everyone, due to various reasons.
Public transport would be a better option, but it is woefully inadequate for anybody outside the commuter belt who's not traveling directly into town currently.

All well and good saying take public transport, but until it's at such a point where it's almost as easy to get from point A to B as it is in your car, people won't use it.

facehugger99

ozzy jr wrote: »

I know it's fantasy stuff in Ireland, but from an engineering point of view, would such a project be possible on the M50?

Engineering put a man on the moon 50 years ago. Building a road on top of another one is a walk in the park in comparison.

The more appropriate questions are how much would it cost, how long to deliver and what advantages would it bring?

facehugger99

Idbatterim wrote: »

the idiots should have put in an extra lane when upgrading it ... I think that could still be done, without massive disruption or cost ...

The 'idiots' are funded by the idiot politicians who are elected by the idiots.

handlemaster

Public transport that works would be a good along start. Light rail to north south east and west dublin would help

tom1ie

Cienciano wrote: »

Lol, you seriously think that's a viable option? I think that's why a lot of people don't take cyclists seriously. I could take 2 kids to school on my bike with a trailer, with their gym gear and school bags, then do the commute across the city on the bike. I could use the trailer to pick up food. Or i could drive and the whole thing would take 20 minutes. Not sure guys are living in the real world.

Other people do it why can’t you? If your overall commute, crèche, shopping, work etc is approx 20k, why not?

Tell me how

spacetweek wrote: »

- Traffic and roads go in a circle - building the M50 enabled a big expansion in development along it, which created more traffic. Widening the M50 in the 2000s made it easier to drive on it for a while, which generated more traffic
- No public transport runs along an equivalent route.
- Building another M50 further out wouldn't be useful as most traffic is only going from e.g. Airport to Tallaght or Blanch to Sandyford. You can't expect motorists to drive all the way out to Maynooth, use the new road, then all the way back in again.
- Incident response and preparing for weather aren't great in Ireland. When it snowed last year we nearly had bread riots. A minor crash on the M50 delays traffic for 3 hours.

Carbon taxes aren't relevant as they are about transitioning from fuel cars to electric cars which won't reduce traffic on the M50. It will reduce pollution and noise but not traffic.

Answers?
Supply side:
- Automated driving may enable more traffic to be carried in the same space.
- Expansion of feeder roads to the junctions.
- Crashes dealt with within 15-20 mins.
Demand side:
- Metro West, the project to build a Metro between Tallaght, Blanch and the Airport. But it needs to be built as a full, possibly underground line, or else the journey time would be too slow.
- Employment centres in suburbs to have a comprehensive system of safe cycle lanes leading to and from nearby residential areas.
- Reduce employment in suburbs and increase in the centre which is better served by public transport.
- Consider converting shopping malls into car-free mixed use developments. Instead of a megamall like Blanch Centre, a development with residential, offices and shops and removal of most of the car parking. People who want to shop in the area from outside are not permitted to drive there.

Huh?


How about encourage employment in the rest of the country?

Let people travel out the N11, N7, N4 etc for work instead of in. Those that currently live outside then would not have to travel in.

tom1ie

appledrop wrote: »

This is not the answer for M50. If your travelling from M1 + coming off at Liffey Valley exit there is no public transport route you can take. This won't change with metro line etc. Yes public transport helps for people who commute to Dublin City Centre but really that's it.

It is the answer, as long as you have multiple frequent orbital routes which bus connects will deliver, as long as the politicians don’t make a bollocks if it.

swarlb

facehugger99 wrote: »

Engineering put a man on the moon 50 years ago. Building a road on top of another one is a walk in the park in comparison.

The more appropriate questions are how much would it cost, how long to deliver and what advantages would it bring?

Over a hundred years ago Dublin had an electric tram system probably 10 times bigger than is there now. You could get a tram from Lucan to Howth, or Dalkey, or Rathmines for example.
Since then obviously various conflicts, personal interests and the advent of the car have changed the landscape.
The point is, instead of building on what was already there, we tended to lose sight.
Can you imagine what London would be like now if they tore up the complete underground system, replace it with buses and then try to rebuild it again.
There are huge tracts of Dublin city that could be re structured for housing, which would keep people living in the city, within walking or biking distance from work. 40 years ago friends of mine lived in a flat in Capel Street, above a furniture shop. Even at that time several rooms were vacant, and could easily have been transformed to flats or apartments. Take a walk trough the city, and look up at all the empty and vacant buildings, some for decades.
Not saying this is the solution, but it would be an option.

magicbastarder

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

I wonder how many people ask about these facilities during recruitment? That would send a clear signal.

it would be a definite question i'd be asking during an interview process; i've not had to drive to work since 2000, and i'm sure as **** not going to start now.

magicbastarder

facehugger99 wrote: »

Engineering put a man on the moon 50 years ago. Building a road on top of another one is a walk in the park in comparison.

you're basically talking about upgrading the M50 using a process which would essentially shut it for several years. that would certainly cure the issue of congestion on the M50.

RayCun

Patww79 wrote: »

Cyclists need to realise that not everyone wants to be a cyclist.

I think everyone knows that.

The issue is that we can't have a transport policy based around everyone driving everywhere in their own cars. Not that I wouldn't like it, or we shouldn't. We can't.

The only way to keep people moving is to prioritize high capacity modes of transport, like buses, trams, rail, and bikes.

People can continue to drive if they like. But private cars should be at the back of the queue for road space.