M50 - apalling gridlock

ozzy jr

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

I heard Eamonn Ryan speaking recently, saying that there are no public transport infrastructure builds happening in 2019

So 2020 at the earliest before a shovel is taken out in anger. Take into account how slow construction takes in ireland, realistically nothing will be up and running before 2025

spacetweek

Tell me how wrote: »

Huh?


How about encourage employment in the rest of the country?

Let people travel out the N11, N7, N4 etc for work instead of in. Those that currently live outside then would not have to travel in.

Do you think this is a communist country? The government can't tell companies where to locate. The companies tell you.
Capital is very mobile nowadays and most big employers in Ireland are foreign. If you try to stop them locating in Dublin they'll locate in Germany.

LeinsterDub

ozzy jr wrote: »

So 2020 at the earliest before a shovel is taken out in anger. Take into account how slow construction takes in ireland, realistically nothing will be up and running before 2025

I don't think we've anything shovel ready in 2020 either. Dart expansion is 2021

Tell me how

spacetweek wrote: »

Do you think this is a communist country? The government can't tell companies where to locate. The companies tell you.
Capital is very mobile nowadays and most big employers in Ireland are foreign. If you try to stop them locating in Dublin they'll locate in Germany.

Sorry for thinking a government should be concerned about the suitable strategies for the entire country.
Companies will locate where they have access to a workforce and the necessary services. Simple. Give them that and I'd imagine they'd be fine with not being in the City centre.

Many think Dunlin is on a par to London or New York. It isn't. It's a fine city, it does very well for itself, but to have the flow of traffic in to the city and associated traffic and accommodation problems while many areas elsewhere in the country are suffering with dropping populations is ridiculous.

I'm not suggesting Google should be relocated to Letterfrack but suitable locations outside the perimeter of the M50 so that appropriate businesses can locate there and still access the population which is currently driving in to the city the from the midlands and beyond every day is perfectly logical.

tom1ie

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

I totally disagree.

There is zero political will. No Dublin politician from a main political party is going to sign up for that knowing the consequences for them. They tried to bring it forward before and it was stopped dead in it's tracks.

Most likely solution is widening and extension of the current tolling arrangement. That is politically the most viable option and it's the easiest.

Widening can be done in sections also. I think the first section will be almost certainly between the N4 and N7.

There is no room to widen the M50 FFS!! If you widen the M50 you would have to allow for this on the junctions as the central median has already been used in the last upgrade.
What ya gonna do, knock down the red cow Moran hotel? Knock down Liffey valley? Lol!

OldMrBrennan83

tom1ie wrote: »

Ah come on now.
Bus connects
Metro link
Dart upgrade to heavy rail lines.
These projects are barely out of the papers everyday of the week!

He said improves...

tom1ie

Patww79 wrote: »

He said improves...

Lol I didn't see the currently under construction bit. My bad!

Bus connects will improve the overall bus system, once the associated infrastructure is built, which are the spine corridors. It won't be worth a damn without this infrastructure

OldMrBrennan83

tom1ie wrote: »

Lol I didn't see the currently under construction bit. My bad!

Bus connects will improve the overall bus system, once the associated infrastructure is built, is the spine corridors. It won't be worth a damn without this infrastructure

Which won't be built, not even the half of it will anyway.

Seth Brundle

tom1ie wrote: »

What ya gonna do, knock down the red cow Moran hotel? Knock down Liffey valley? Lol!

Whatever we do in terms of improving the transport situation, I'm all for bulldozing Liffey Valley regardless!

tom1ie

Patww79 wrote: »

Which won't be built, not even the half of it will anyway.

Unfortunately I share this view. Pretty bad state of affairs to be honest.
I'm sure our minister for transport can pull this project together and get it over the line. (cough cough)

tom1ie

Seth Brundle wrote: »

Whatever we do in terms of improving the transport situation, I'm all for bulldozing Liffey Valley regardless!

Ah it's not that bad!

Seth Brundle

tom1ie wrote: »

Ah it's not that bad!

Yes it is!
Apart from the same old British shops, I believe it represents a horribly corrupt episode in Irish history

tom1ie

Seth Brundle wrote: »

Yes it is!
Apart from the same old British shops, I believe it represents a horribly corrupt episode in Irish history

Well.......at least the shopping centre has a mass transit system going around the shops.

Spanish Eyes

Widening the M50, as everyone knows will just increase the traffic on it ad infinitum.

I agree that tolling at every junction has to happen sooner or later. Life is grand if you live in Palmerston and work in Sandyford, but not if you live in Sandyford and work in Blanch and beyond that.

Quite unfair IMV, but there we are.

Of course introducing tolls at each junction will mean cars will meander off to avoid tolls to a large extent and thus the whole idea of a peripheral motorway is dead in its tracks.

I honestly don't know what the solution is anymore. If anyone does, great!

monument

Tell me how wrote: »

Sorry for thinking a government should be concerned about the suitable strategies for the entire country.
Companies will locate where they have access to a workforce and the necessary services. Simple. Give them that and I'd imagine they'd be fine with not being in the City centre.

Only in cities do you get access to the workforce and the necessary services most large companies want.

Tell me how wrote: »

Many think Dunlin is on a par to London or New York. It isn't. It's a fine city, it does very well for itself, but to have the flow of traffic in to the city and associated traffic and accommodation problems while many areas elsewhere in the country are suffering with dropping populations is ridiculous.

I know nobody who thinks Dublin is on par to London or New York -- Dublin is on par to Amsterdam, Copenhagen, Marseille etc... I don't think Dublin has the problem with its own perceptions here -- the rest of the country does. Other Irish cities and towns all too often try to compete directly with Dublin when they should be focused on what they can offer and how they compare to elsewhere in Europe.

There's accommodation problems across Ireland -- any influx of jobs would be problematic for any area. Overall, few areas are suffering dropping populations.

And the traffic is madness in most large urban area in Ireland -- silly traffic traffic even in large towns. All the same reason -- too much of a reliance on cars.

For example, it's hardly attractive to sell many Irish towns to CEOs and other employees when they have the same traffic and parking issues (even at different levels), little or no public transport to speak of, few decent cycle routes, etc.

Meanwhile, Dublin has been acting for years (even if slowly), now car users as a percentage of commuters coming into the city centre has dropped to under 30%, the number of commuters crossing into the city centre has increased and the number of people living inside the city centre is also increasing.

Tell me how wrote: »

I'm not suggesting Google should be relocated to Letterfrack but suitable locations outside the perimeter of the M50 so that appropriate businesses can locate there and still access the population which is currently driving in to the city the from the midlands and beyond every day is perfectly logical.

Google etc want to be in the city centre and most of their employees do too.

There's a lot of people in the midlands etc that think they are the majority of workers in Dublin -- they are not. 40% of the population of the country is in the GDA and 30% in County Dublin, mostly in and around the M50.

Moving to what you call "suitable locations outside the perimeter" increases car dependency, puts more presure on the road network, makes commuting from different areas a bigger pain and increases sprawl.

Idbatterim

Why not just multi toll at peak times? It might well encourage car sharing ....

wench

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

I honestly don't know what the solution is anymore. If anyone does, great!

There is one solution that solves most problems...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aCbfMkh940Q

tom1ie

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

Widening the M50, as everyone knows will just increase the traffic on it ad infinitum.

I agree that tolling at every junction has to happen sooner or later. Life is grand if you live in Palmerston and work in Sandyford, but not if you live in Sandyford and work in Blanch and beyond that.

Quite unfair IMV, but there we are.

Of course introducing tolls at each junction will mean cars will meander off to avoid tolls to a large extent and thus the whole idea of a peripheral motorway is dead in its tracks.

I honestly don't know what the solution is anymore. If anyone does, great!

Build proper public transport and cycling options.
There are too many cars. Introduce tolls and the areas around the M50 will be wedged.
We can't widen the M50 any further that's just an engineering fact. There's no space.
The only further upgrade to the M50 is the variable speed signing which is due to be in place next year at some stage.
Get people to leave their cars at home for viable alternatives that we HAVE to build.

RayCun

For all the congestion at rush hour, there is nowhere in the country that as many people can get to in an hour as Dublin city centre. That is why companies are based there.

Spanish Eyes

Idbatterim wrote: »

Why not just multi toll at peak times? It might well encourage car sharing ....

OK, if it is automatic tolling that can be switched on and off, fine. I think it's a good idea.

But I have no doubt it will be fraught with local and pothole political issues. Yikes.

Makes me laugh though that those who cannot avoid tolls because of their place of work/home have not had a go at those who actually can avoid charges for the same reason. Baffled :pac:

wandererz

I need to make a decision on a new job in Cherrywood. I can start next week if i wanted to.
Trouble is that i live in Blanchardstown, Dublin 15.
So, it would have to be the M50 for me. Possibly 9am to be there for 10am. Liffey Valley to Cherrywood.

So, between going on the dole vs adding to the congestion on the M50...

What's the verdict??

Spanish Eyes

The toll on the M50 was introduced because of the cost of the massive bridge over the Liffey at Palmerston.

That's my understanding of the siting of the toll charge anyway.

Someone made money out of it, wasn't me tho. lol.

RayCun

On Google maps, you can plot a route and include time of day to see how long it would take

OldMrBrennan83

RayCun wrote: »

On Google maps, you can plot a route and include time of day to see how long it would take

If it rains and there's seventeen crashes then all bets are off though.

wandererz

RayCun wrote: »

On Google maps, you can plot a route and include time of day to see how long it would take

Thanks. I'm aware of that.
Just wondering what the people on here who advocate public transport / getting cars off the road recommend.

Spanish Eyes

wandererz wrote: »

I need to make a decision on a new job in Cherrywood. I can start next week if i wanted to.
Trouble is that i live in Blanchardstown, Dublin 15.
So, it would have to be the M50 for me. Possibly 9am to be there for 10am.

So, between going on the dole vs adding to the congestion on the M50...

What's the verdict??

I'd say you need to get a bus to Red Cow LUAS, (is there one?) then a LUAS to Abbey Street, then a LUAS to Cherrywood. Ah do you see how ridiculous peripheral Public Transport is in this city?

Anyway, whatever, starting at 10am! whoa, what job is this pray tell.

tom1ie

wandererz wrote: »

I need to make a decision on a new job in Cherrywood. I can start next week if i wanted to.
Trouble is that i live in Blanchardstown, Dublin 15.
So, it would have to be the M50 for me. Possibly 9am to be there for 10am. Liffey Valley to Cherrywood.

So, between going on the dole vs adding to the congestion on the M50...

What's the verdict??

Are you on a train line or a bus route?

OldMrBrennan83

wandererz wrote: »

Thanks. I'm aware of that.
Just wondering what the people on here who advocate public transport / getting cars off the road recommend.

If it pays more than what you're doing and won't cost the difference to get to then go for it. Never mind the "must cycle everywhere" crew.

RayCun

wandererz wrote: »

Thanks. I'm aware of that.
Just wondering what the people on here who advocate public transport / getting cars off the road recommend.

What does Google say about your public transport options? I've no idea how long it would take to get to the green line from where you live. Or how long it would take you to cycle to the nearest luas stop.

Are you suggesting that public transport is pointless if it can't get you to anywhere from anywhere in under an hour?

Spanish Eyes

RayCun wrote: »

What does Google say about your public transport options? I've no idea how long it would take to get to the green line from where you live. Or how long it would take you to cycle to the nearest luas stop.

Are you suggesting that public transport is pointless if it can't get you to anywhere from anywhere in under an hour?

Getting from D15 to Cherrywood is not easy on PT. Need a packed breakfast/lunch and stamina.

tom1ie

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

Getting from D15 to Cherrywood is not easy on PT. Need a packed breakfast/lunch and stamina.

It's not easy but doable. Depends what area of blanch. If the poster is on a railline, get the train to town and get the Luas to cherry wood.

Ger Roe

facehugger99 wrote: »

Congestion-charges combined with a complete expansion of the bus network -routes, frequencies, etc. would work.


If you price most motorists off the road and provide quality bus routes and decent cycling infrastructure you'd solve the problems within 2-4 years.

Why the stick without carrot approach?. Put the services and infrastructure in place first and see if the problem solves itself without resorting to financial terrorism on the people who currently have no other option but to contribute to the problem that they sincerely wish they were not part of.

OldMrBrennan83

Exactly. Forcing people off the roads, Christ. Like turning the world into one of those dystopian future films.

wandererz

Patww79 wrote: »

If it pays more than what you're doing and won't cost the difference to get to then go for it. Never mind the "must cycle everywhere" crew.

Thanks. It's just that some people don't understand that others are sometimes forced to do these things.

Someone even asked why companies don't hire from the local area only (or something to that effect). Most times, the skill sets are sparse and people can't move.

I for one would move back to South Dublin or North Wicklow area. The trouble is that i cannot afford to sell & buy elsewhere. And the way the tax system works, if i rented out my place out for €1600/month and rented another closer to work for €1600/month then my rental income would be taxed at 52%.
So nett effect is that i would be paying €1600 rent AND the balance of my mortgage just to be closer to work. Rather than one cancelling the other out.

Alternative is to drive to Broombridge & take a Luas to Cherrywood. That takes about 50mins on the Luas alone plus the 15mins driving time. The clincher though is that there is no NO parking at Broombridge, where the Luas ends!!

Tell me how

monument wrote: »

Only in cities do you get access to the workforce and the necessary services most large companies want.

Every day many drive past Naas, Newbridge, Leixlip, Maynooth, Drogheda Wicklow etc to get to work in Dublin. Intel, HP, Kerry Group are examples of companies in the region but not shoehorned in to the city area.

monument wrote: »

There's accommodation problems across Ireland -- any influx of jobs would be problematic for any area. Overall, few areas are suffering dropping populations.

It is in no way the problem which it is in Dublin. There are several properties empty in many towns and villages. These properties might still require travelling to work, but that is happening in some form already (hence this discussion)/

monument wrote: »

For example, it's hardly attractive to sell many Irish towns to CEOs and other employees when they have the same traffic and parking issues (even at different levels), little or no public transport to speak of, few decent cycle routes, etc.

There are many multinational companies outside of Dublin also. They would be more likely to locate in satellite towns, or the other cities if incentivised to do so while still having suitable access to workforce and resources.

monument wrote: »

Google etc want to be in the city centre and most of their employees do too.

Google is one company. I know there are more like them but by no means all companies should be let dictate this. As I said previously, suitable services and workforce will be priority for most companies over location. Google can afford to be so choosy. Not everyone can.

monument wrote: »

There's a lot of people in the midlands etc that think they are the majority of workers in Dublin -- they are not. 40% of the population of the country is in the GDA and 30% in County Dublin, mostly in and around the M50.

At this stage, because of the focus on growing Dublin at the detriment of other areas the population is skewed. But, having 30% of the population of the country in 1.3% of the area of the country is not appropriate and it is not ideal that we have gotten to this point. Also, your figures include those who have moved from outside Dublin and are renting within because of the need to do so for work. If they had the option of working locally to their home place I suspect many would rather it.

monument wrote: »

Moving to what you call "suitable locations outside the perimeter" increases car dependency, puts more presure on the road network, makes commuting from different areas a bigger pain and increases sprawl.

These cars are on the road already. They are travelling in to Dublin.
The issues with Dublin should be considered in a national context.

Spanish Eyes

tom1ie wrote: »

It's not easy but doable. Depends what area of blanch. If the poster is on a railline, get the train to town and get the Luas to cherry wood.

Yes it does depend on whether poster is near the train. Not sure if there is a stop in Blanchardstown anyway. Maybe Clonsilla or Castleknock? Can be done for sure, and costs can reduce if TaxSaver is an option from employer.

But honestly, if it is going to take the same amount of time to drive across the M50 in a warm car even with tolls, most will take that option from driveway to work. The PT options are not enticing.

OldMrBrennan83

wandererz wrote: »

Thanks. It's just that some people don't understand that others are sometimes forced to do these things.

Someone even asked why companies don't hire from the local area only (or something to that effect). Most times, the skill sets are sparse and people can't move.

I for one would move back to South Dublin or North Wicklow area. The trouble is that i cannot afford to sell & buy elsewhere. And the way the tax system works, if i rented out my place out for €1600/month and rented another closer to work for €1600/month then my rental income would be taxed at 52%.
So nett effect is that i would be paying €1600 rent AND the balance of my mortgage just to be closer to work. Rather than one cancelling the other out.

Alternative is to drive to Broombridge & take a Luas to Cherrywood. That takes about 50mins on the Luas alone plus the 15mins driving time. The clincher though is that there is no NO parking at Broombridge, where the Luas ends!!

Yet you should be forced out of your car and onto PT. Some people live in the clouds so I wouldn't worry, do whatever works best for you.

amcalester

Patww79 wrote: »

Exactly. Forcing people off the roads, Christ. Like turning the world into one of those dystopian future films.

You’re the one saying driving is a war.

Get rid of the cars, get rid of the war.

RayCun

It's funny to see the two threads together.
One that there is no option but to drive to somewhere in Dublin, that is well served by public transport.
The other saying that companies should relocate out of Dublin, where public transport is bound to be much worse.

OldMrBrennan83

amcalester wrote: »

You’re the one saying driving is a war.

Get rid of the cars, get rid of the war.

That's a long time ago my little stalker. That's if I even did.

AndrewJRenko

wandererz wrote: »

I need to make a decision on a new job in Cherrywood. I can start next week if i wanted to.
Trouble is that i live in Blanchardstown, Dublin 15.
So, it would have to be the M50 for me. Possibly 9am to be there for 10am. Liffey Valley to Cherrywood.

So, between going on the dole vs adding to the congestion on the M50...

What's the verdict??

Get a crap bike, cycle to Broombridge and lock your bike at the Luas stop. BleeperBike might even work for you. Take the green Luas direct to Cherrywood. It's a long-ish haul, under an hour, but you'll have a seat, so you might even get to snooze.

Patww79 wrote: »

If it pays more than what you're doing and won't cost the difference to get to then go for it. Never mind the "must cycle everywhere" crew.

Get a crap bike, cycle to Broombridge and blah blah blah

Ger Roe wrote: »

Why the stick without carrot approach?

Because we are killing our planet. If we don't change dramatically within the next twelve years, our grandchildren will have nowhere to live.

Patww79 wrote: »

Exactly. Forcing people off the roads, Christ. Like turning the world into one of those dystopian future films.

Yeah, despite the victimhood, we're not quite in Mad Max territory yet. In fact, all the transport projects being built next year are for road widening.

Tell me how

RayCun wrote: »

It's funny to see the two threads together.
One that there is no option but to drive to somewhere in Dublin, that is well served by public transport.
The other saying that companies should relocate out of Dublin, where public transport is bound to be much worse.

Have a think about this. It appears it is challenging for some to understand.

Maybe, just maybe, those currently driving to Dublin would rather driver a shorter distance in less congested road than they are currently driving to a more local business?

Is that impossible to consider? Take your time.

wandererz

Patww79 wrote: »

Yet you should be forced out of your car and onto PT. Some people live in the clouds so I wouldn't worry, do whatever works best for you.

I used train into city center for past 13months. My car sat in the drive and only did about 1000 miles or less in the past year. So I'm not against PT.

Sometimes people are forced to use the M50.

One idea would be to have a dedicated long distance lane during peak hours that is also cheaper.
So if you get on it at the top of the M50 & exit at the bottom then you pay less.
If you get onto it for short journeys then you pay more.

It then allows for free flow of traffic North/South & vice versa.

AndrewJRenko

Patww79 wrote: »

Yet you should be forced out of your car and onto PT. Some people live in the clouds so I wouldn't worry, do whatever works best for you.

Just for the record, no-one is being 'forced out of their car'.

amcalester

Patww79 wrote: »

That's a long time ago my little stalker. That's if I even did.

A long time ago? Or you didn’t say it? Which is it?

Not stalking you Pat, just happen to remember that particular little nugget of bull****.

https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=108164557&postcount=104

OldMrBrennan83

amcalester wrote: »

A long time ago? Or you didn’t say it? Which is it?

Not stalking you Pat, just happen to remember that particular little nugget of bull****.

https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=108164557&postcount=104

That's some fine stalking, rapeyness level 10.
I stand by it though, you'll be eaten alive in Dublin if you drive meekly. Though this isn't really the thread for that so not sure why you felt the need to bring it into it.

tom1ie

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

Get a crap bike, cycle to Broombridge and lock your bike at the Luas stop. Take the green Luas direct to Cherrywood. It's a long haul, but you'll have a seat, so you might even get to snooze.



Get a crap bike, cycle to Broombridge and blah blah blah



Because we are killing our planet. If we don't change dramatically within the next twelve years, our grandchildren will have nowhere to live.



Yeah, despite the victimhood, we're not quite in Mad Max territory yet. In fact, all the transport projects being built next year are for road widening.

People honestly don't give a **** that we are killing our planet as we are slaves to paying our mortgages/rent.
The only way to fix this problem, is rush through Emergency c.p.o laws tomorrow, build bus connects infrastructure, metro link, metro 2, dart underground, electrify the commuter lines. Introduce congestion charge within the Dublin canals. Build 10000 space p+R's at each radial route into Dublin outside of the m50, at rathcoole, leixlip, swords, (part of metrolink this is anyway), st Margaret's (M2), clonee, bray and run qbc bus lanes all the way into the city centre and toll the ****e out of the road on the cc side of the p+r.
Then have 4 orbital routes, m50 route, suburban route canal route and city route that intersect all radial routes.

This needs to be done within the next 5 years. After this is built ban cars that aren't ev's from within the m50.
Of course that means spending **** all on welfare health justice ATC for the next 5 years so it ain't gonna happen. But this is what we should aim for.

Tazzimus

I commute from maynooth to cherrywood, it's not a pleasant drive, especially with the daily crashes.
The PT options aren't great either though, I'd imagine the Luas takes a lot longer than 50mins from broombridge seeing as it's taken that to get from Stephens green to cherrywood when I've had to take it.

The Luas extension is a step in the right direction though, more of that please.

amcalester

Patww79 wrote: »

That's some fine stalking, rapeyness level 10.
I stand by it though, you'll be eaten alive in Dublin if you drive meekly. Though this isn't really the thread for that so not sure why you felt the need to bring it into it.

Just pointing out that with less cars there’ll be less war (your words, whether you remember them or not), not exactly the dystopian future you’ve foretold.

tom1ie

Just for whoever was asking about blanch to cherrywood, Dublin bus service changes from 2nd Dec:

NEW Route 40e – Tyrellstown to Broombridge Luas via West Finglas
- Monday to Friday – Services to commence at 0537 from Tyrellstown and operate every 30 minutes all day and evening with a last bus from Broombridge Luas at 2330.
- Saturday – Services to commence at 0640 from Tyrellstown and operate every 30 minutes early morning, every 40 minutes daytime and hourly in the evening with a last bus from Broombridge at 2330.
- Sunday – Services to commence at 0715 from Tyrellstown and operate every 30 minutes early morning, every 50 minutes with a last bus from Broombridge at 2330.