Inside Dublin’s Housing Crisis

Wanderer78

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121134001#Comment_121134001

...only that austerity is well known, and also well researched, and from respected sources, to cause serious long term social problems.....

...again, the root causes of the 08 crash was ultimately based in whats generally called neoliberal based polices that have been implemented globally over the last few decades, which has lead to widescale financialsation of our economies, in particular in relation to our property markets, whos main aim is simply to inflate, and continually re-inflate the value of these assets. such polices only truly benefit those that own such assets, primarily older generations, but directly damages non asset owners, i.e. primarily younger generations....

...so we better embrace the long term sh1t show its now creating such as the rise of the extremes, and the de-stabilising effects this is having on our economies and societies that this is causing!

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121134001#Comment_121134001

It's easier to blame others I guess.

RichardAnd

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121134001#Comment_121134001

That money was borrowed (or more correctly, "printed") to prop up an enormously inflated state that came to be due to years of horrifically irresponsible spending during the Celtic Tiger years. In 2008, we could have either made cuts to bring things under control, or we could have kicked the can down to younger people to worry about. Older generations made the decision, and I doubt that most people even paused to consider what they were doing or even cared. Thus, you are correct that the 200 billion was not borrowed directly to inflate a property market. However, it indirectly did just that.

What's the solution to this? I don't have one, and I actually believe that there is no real coming back from this.

HerrKuehn

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121134087#Comment_121134087

We could have borrowed say 300 bn and not had any cuts at all. But then future generations would be paying more interest on the borrowing. The fact is we were living off the proceeds of a massive property bubble, with bench marking inflating PS salaries, along with normal inflation based increases. Basically, the standard of living we thought we had was unsustainable. It would have been better to invest the proceeds of the bubble and use it to build infrastructure after the bubble popped, but this would require a bit of knowledge and foresight, things that are in short supply with our politicians.

HerrKuehn

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121134224#Comment_121134224

Also worth pointing out that the "young people" didn't condense from the ether in the last decade. They would have been children at the time of the bust and if we went with the austerity MAX approach, we would have been laying off their parents and cutting the dole. They would have been surviving on feck all in misery. So it isn't as if they didn't benefit from the borrowing, that is just disingenuous to suggest. It is quite possible that the approach taken was the best in that unemployment was reigned in, the young people were not growing up in LWI households which is shown to have long term damaging effects. Maybe there wasn't an easy solution to get from decimated construction sector after the bubble, to being able to match demand in demand in the last years, particularly with population growth.

It seems you are quite annoyed about things, but you freely admit you could have bought something earlier but were unwilling to take the plunge. There is no point where everything looks perfect, you only know that in hindsight and have to take risks. It isn't up to others to advise you on that either.

Flinty997

If the older generations made the decisions of the past. That implies it's younger generations making decisions of today. So all the problems today are caused by the younger current generations.

Go fix it.

DataDude

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121134224#Comment_121134224

The rhetoric repeated here that money was printed/borrowed post 08 to inflate/maintain the property bubble seems directly at odds with the fact that Ireland had one of (if not the) largest peak to trough of property values in the 5 years that followed 2008.

As our national debt grew rapidly. Our property prices fell more than almost any country in history.

Our national debt then began to shrink in 2013 (until 2020) which is precisely when property prices began to grow again.

realitykeeper

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121133880#Comment_121133880

I absolutely agree. FF (apart from it's pre 2008 toxicity) have the same selfish policies as FG and SF in a way is even worse because they seem to think the 200 billion housing stimulus wasn't enough.

noisysandwich

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121113295#Comment_121113295

Yeah, this was me. Did a 2 year PLC at 19, then started my degree at 21 and my Masters at 24. Graduated in 2013 at 25, faffed about for 2 years having one existential crisis after another, then worked in startups for several years. Now a single Parent to an almost 4 year old and trying to buy an something for us. Really wanted a garden for him but it's not feasible unless I want to live in the sticks and not have a support network around me. So a 2 bedroom poky apartment it is! Could be worse, so many people have things much tougher. But yeah, definitely hard to do it alone and mad to think that I finished my education 10 years older than my Mum was when she finished hers and started working.

noisysandwich

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121113295#Comment_121113295

Yeah, this was me. Did a 2 year PLC at 19, then started my degree at 21 and my Masters at 24. Graduated in 2013 at 25, faffed about for 2 years having one existential crisis after another, then worked in startups for several years. Now a single Parent to an almost 4 year old and trying to buy an something for us. Really wanted a garden for him but it's not feasible unless I want to live in the sticks and not have a support network around me. So a 2 bedroom poky apartment it is! Could be worse, so many people have things much tougher. But yeah, definitely hard to do it alone and mad to think that I finished my education 10 years older than my Mum was when she finished hers and started working.

RichardAnd

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121136233#Comment_121136233

Just from anecdotal experience...

My brother's best mate is just finishing up a PHD in some sort of medical field at 32. He's had papers published, and he certainly is successful in terms of his field. However, he still lives with his mother. On the flip side, I personally know a lad who never went to college, got a job in a mechanic and is now looking to open his own garage. He also bought a house at 29 and is married with a kid.

Personally, I feel that my four years studying computer science were not well spent. Yes, I learned things, but not in an efficient manner. I learned far, far more once I started working and was taught by older and more experienced software developers.

I think that college has a place, and it is essential for some subjects, but it's over subscribed in this country.

HerrKuehn

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121137030#Comment_121137030

University is just the most efficient way of bringing an average person up to a certain level of knowledge, nothing more. I think in most cases a degree is best for people if they want to get into CS, but when they finish they are at a very basic level. Some would be able to go off and learn on their own, but potentially miss out on certain key concepts. With higher degrees, particularly PhD, there is a trade off. Is it really worth spending 5+ years to get one? It depends on the potential earnings at the end. I spent 2.5 years doing a PhD and did not finish. I had some papers, but not enough to complete and the way the funding was, I would have had to drop from a very decent pay (like 35k or so) to normal PhD type (around 18k I think at the time). I certainly don't regret dropping out. I learned to work independently on complicated things which has been very useful in my career.

Padre_Pio

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121137030#Comment_121137030

I would never recommend someone do a PhD after their undergrad/masters, unless they really REALLY want to stay in academia.

The cost/benefit never stacks up. You'd be much better off with 4 years of working experience + 4 years' salary behind you, than another piece of paper and more debt. No reason you can't pursue a PhD later in your career if you really want to.

RE the comp science degree, you probably wouldn't have been able to access those experienced software devs without it. An undergrad is just a means to getting your first job. No one cares about it after that.

I really wish someone told me this in school. I did a useless degree (had a great time doing it) but I was on minimum wage for years after. Then I did a second degree in a subject that was employable and well-paid. The phrase "Money may not buy happiness, but I'd rather cry in a Porsche than on a bus" is very true.

RichardAnd

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121137166#Comment_121137166

"I don't care too much for money, 'cause money can't buy you love!"

Always remember that that song was written by a millionaire....

OEP

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121137166#Comment_121137166

It depends on the industry you're planning on entering, and the job. In Biotech and Pharma, a PhD is a big advantage.

Padre_Pio

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121137948#Comment_121137948

I would say that's the only field where I've seen PhDs do well, and it's still not a necessity.

HerrKuehn

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121138132#Comment_121138132

I think for it to make financial sense, it would need to be getting you into a job with a salary approaching €200k, given you are giving up most of your 20's earnings. I am not sure how easy it is to get jobs at that level in pharma, it is possible in certain areas though.

OEP

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121138340#Comment_121138340

Salaries wouldn't need to be 200k. It is very difficult to access a lot of jobs in the research/clinical/statistical areas, particularly more senior jobs, in Pharma and Biotech without a PhD. Not impossible but your chances are a lot lower. It's not solely about money either, if you pursue a PhD you generally have a strong interest in that subject area. You potentially get access to more interesting jobs that match your interests.

HerrKuehn

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121138572#Comment_121138572

Oh I get that, but then you need to understand that you are sacrificing financially. So if it isn't a highly paid area and you spend a lot of time getting the PhD, you might find it difficult to buy a property. I dropped out of a PhD as explained above, there were plenty of people doing one who were the types who just stumbled into it as they didn't know what else to do. I think unless you are from a very well off background, you need to think about the ROI on an education.

noisysandwich

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121137030#Comment_121137030

Yeah my brother did a pHD and only got the job he always wanted at 38. He went to college at 26 and was pretty much non stop with it for 12 years, taking breaks here and there during the PhD. Said he didn't know if it was worth doing all over again, especially as he's not on particularly fantastic money or anything.

Padre_Pio

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121138572#Comment_121138572

That's not so much that the jobs demand that level of education, it's because the jobs market is tough. Publish or perish in academia.

I agree that jobs should never be solely about money, but money should always be a factor when looking at careers. So much of your health and well being is tied to your earnings.

I have a few friends who stayed in academia and are doing interesting work, but they're very underpaid compared to me working in industry in maybe a less interesting role. That's a personal choice for them, but I get a few "aren't you lucky to afford a house" comments, and really the answer is "no". I followed the money and my life as a whole is much easier for it.

RichardAnd

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121141781#Comment_121141781

Agreed. Luck does exist, but most of what befalls us in life is rather down to personal decisions. If I could go back to the start of my career again, I would not have been so content to sit in a job that was "alright". I would have gone for the high-stress, high-pressure, high-reward work that I could have taken.

In my opinion, our 20s are the golden years of life. We have a limited time to set ourselves up on the path for the rest of our lives, and if opportunities are not taken, they will not be there later on. The best advise I could give to a young man or woman is start thinking about the future early, start investing and start working on yourself.

I will add, however, that I am in no way saying that the housing crisis is not real or that young people are spending their money on avocado toast...

donaghs

Looks like the pressure on housing will just keep on cranking up…

Even if you wanted to carpet the greater Dublin area in houses and apartments, I don’t think it’s possible to build to keep pace with population rises

https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/ck5xjrnn07go.amp

RichardAnd

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121159120#Comment_121159120

That the state not only allowed this to happen, but actually facilitated speaks volumes. This is nearly a 2% rise in population in just one year.

JCN12

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121142167#Comment_121142167

Avocado toast, I would say they are to be honest. The money is spent in everything else. 🤔

Tombo2001

Interesting to see AIRBNB has been entirely cut out in New York City, that is to say the 5 boroughs of New York.

Random check, 1 week in Dublin in mid november there are 633 properties available in Dublin. Am guessing another 200 maybe have been booked already.

Guts of a thousand properties in DUblin on AIRBNB at present.