Formula 1 2019 - General Discussion Thread

muckwarrior

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Agree on all that but I question the rain point. Are there really fewer rain races now or is just how we remember it? Like the way people remember the past as being great. Summers school holidays were guaranteed sunny weather every day and football was much better.

I wonder if there's any actual data on wet weather races over time. The inclusion of middle east races decreases the chance of rain at those weekends alright.

It's not that there are fewer rain affected races, it's that they're now much quicker to stop the race if the rain becomes heavy.

eviltimeban

muckwarrior wrote: »

It's not that there are fewer rain affected races, it's that they're now much quicker to stop the race if the rain becomes heavy.

And that's fair enough. I rather my formula one drivers alive rather dead.

meeeeh

There used to be something like 16 or 17 races per year, most in Europe, none in Middle East, Baku, drier parts of US or Mexico. Malaysia used to be wet and that is gone. Imola and Nurmberg could be wet and they are gone. Turkey is the only very dry race that is not on calendar anymore that I can think of. I think it's more the location depending than safety.

El_Duderino 09

muckwarrior wrote: »

It's not that there are fewer rain affected races, it's that they're now much quicker to stop the race if the rain becomes heavy.

How often does that happen?

muckwarrior

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

How often does that happen?

Haven't been keeping count, but I'm struggling to recall any occasions back in the 90s where they stopped a race because of rain. It was normal to see the cars driving with a massive rooster tail of spray behind it to the point where following drivers were almost driving blind. Also, it was normal to see cars flying off left right and centre. These days they tend to stop the race before it gets to that point. I'm not saying it's a good or bad thing btw, just my observation.

Also, meeeeh made a good point on the location of races. Maybe there actually are less wet ones now?

guyfo

eviltimeban wrote: »

And that's fair enough. I rather my formula one drivers alive rather dead.

Not fair enough actually... I've been a fan for over 20 years and never once did I see someone die because of a wet track.

meeeeh

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_red-flagged_Formula_One_races

This is list of races that needed to be restarted for any reason. I don't think there are significantly more races stopped because of rain than they used to be, however my guess is safety car will be out quicker than they used to be.

meeeeh

guyfo wrote: »

Not fair enough actually... I've been a fan for over 20 years and never once did I see someone die because of a wet track.

Joules Bianchi went of on a damp track.

guyfo

meeeeh wrote: »

Joules Bianchi went of on a damp track.

And hit a loading shovel....

meeeeh

guyfo wrote: »

And hit a loading shovel....

Which he would avoid if he managed to stay on the track. He didn't. According to your logic Senna died because barriers were there.

Darkglasses

Not saying wet races aren't more dangerous (I don't have statistics to base an opinion on either way) - but it is surprising how few F1 fatalities actually have occurred in the wet. And even then, whether the wet weather actually caused it is tough to say. For example going back to 1968 with the death of Jo Schlesser in France (the most recent one I can find before Bianchi), the manner in which his car caught fire was probably a bigger issue.

meeeeh

I suspect slower speeds in rain make a difference.

eagle eye

Well I certainly won't be watching. There will get Indycar and Nascar where it'll be hard to pick a winner before it starts and no bull**** penalties.
F1 is an awful organisation, soon as it's gone and replaced by something better I'll be back.
Lewis Hamilton breaking records when people will always question as to how good a driver he is. The reason for that but is all the rubbish going on and rules about specs. One car, Mercedes, is miles ahead of the rest. It's not like any other Motorsports where the actual driver makes a big difference.

mickdw

meeeeh wrote: »

guyfo wrote: »

And hit a loading shovel....

Which he would avoid if he managed to stay on the track. He didn't. According to your logic Senna died because barriers were there.

Well no. The logic is that a loading shovel with such a lethal design should never have been near a race track. If Bianchi had hit a shovel with a straight metal shirt, he would have jumped out of the car. As it was, the shovel design undid all the cars safety systems by moving the direct contact to his head area.
So he didn't die because of the wet track. He died because of the management of the wet track. It is therefore easy to see why race control are super conservative now in terms of wet racing.

meeeeh

And there are less sand run off areas because tarmac is considered safer. Safety measures will always improve but track conditions influence how safe racing is

There will be more accdents in rain and as you can claim that nobody died because of rain in last 20 years you can also claim that 100% fatal accidents in last 20 years happened in wet weather. It's a statement that doesn't tell you anything.

guyfo

meeeeh wrote: »

Which he would avoid if he managed to stay on the track. He didn't.

Ok obviously you haven't been following F1 long enough to understand or are arguing just for the sake of it. If you actually think the reason Jules died was because of wet weather then I question your sanity. With that logic sure why don't the tracks do a sponsorship deals with to park tractors in gravel traps at all the circuits and if someone dies just blame it on the driver for crashing...

A few facts and a bit of background to Suzuka 2014:

Event and championship promoters wanted to push back the event start time as late as possible so the main audience (Europeans) would be more likely to watch. This pushed the start time so late that if something was to happen then the race would be cut short because of fading light. No lights were installed by the Circuit despite this.

Of course to race day arrives and the decision came back to bite them in the arse. The race was started behind the safety car then stopped again causing concern that it would indeed be curtailed if there were any more delays so the officials cut corners.

A few laps before the crash drivers were already concerned with the lack of visibility but the race continued. Sutil went off into the barriers at the Dunlop curve but as bringing out the safety car would have caused the race to be red flagged Charlie Whiting didn't call for it. As a result heavy machinery made its way onto a live race track with cars at full speed and we all know the rest...

At the end of the day that machine should never ever have been there, the actions of the FIA, race promoters, track owners and race officials all added up to cause the death of a fantastic driver, not because he had an off on a wet track. It definitely wasn't "damp" as you stated, it was fully wet, and while weather conditions and visibility caused him to leave the circuit they absolutely did not cause his death.

meeeeh

guyfo wrote: »

Ok obviously you haven't been following F1 long enough to understand or are arguing just for the sake of it.

Sweetie no need to be patronising, I'm watching F1 long enough to remember Lauda racing (vaguely but I do).

I never said rain was sole factor but it was contributing. I'm not arguing for excessive measures in rain I'm just pointing out that your statement is overly simplistic.

Adamocovic

I'm confused regarding the Bianchi debate. Yes it was a combination of factors but the rain was certainly one of the big factors that caused the incident.

Obviously everyone knows the rain, overall conditions caused by the typhoon like the lack of visibility, start time, FIA lack of reaction to the weather and the tractor were all factors that lead to his untimely passing.

I don't see what the point or how someone can try singling out one factor as the cause and arguing the others weren't. The rain certainly was one of the things that lead to what happened.

Even afterwards drivers complained about too much water on the track and argued that they had been on the radio asking the FIA to suspend the race before the incident occured. I remember Massa in particular saying this.

pjohnson

Yeah if people are blaming the tractor for causing it they may aswell blame Sutil if he hadn't lost control and beached himself it would never have been there. Two cars lost it in pretty much the same placed due to the conditions.

It was the conditions being discussed so bringing in the tractor seems odd.

El_Duderino 09

muckwarrior wrote: »

Haven't been keeping count, but I'm struggling to recall any occasions back in the 90s where they stopped a race because of rain. It was normal to see the cars driving with a massive rooster tail of spray behind it to the point where following drivers were almost driving blind. Also, it was normal to see cars flying off left right and centre. These days they tend to stop the race before it gets to that point. I'm not saying it's a good or bad thing btw, just my observation.

Also, meeeeh made a good point on the location of races. Maybe there actually are less wet ones now?

I think it's pretty Important to know how how often it happens if we're going to say it's a significant problem. I really do t think it happens often enough to be any kind of a problem. It certainly hasn't happened often recently.

Rossi IRL

Wasn't Bianchi also speeding under a double waved yellow.

A lot of factors involved in that incident. Blaming one thing is silly.

d8491prj5boyvg

Rossi IRL wrote: »

Wasn't Bianchi also speeding under a double waved yellow.

A lot of factors involved in that incident. Blaming one thing is silly.

Bianchi speeding (like any other driver would tbh) because of no safety car*. No safety car because race control would have had to red flag the race. Red flag required in the event of delay because of late start. Late start because of pressure to change time to suit western audience.

*No safety car also resulted in digger in run off area when cars were flying past at reasonably high speed (and, of course, higher speed than they should have been)

It all boils down to organisational pressure to suit western TV audiences in the end.

Adamocovic

Payton Low Corkscrew wrote: »

Bianchi speeding (like any other driver would tbh) because of no safety car*. No safety car because race control would have had to red flag the race. Red flag required in the event of delay because of late start. Late start because of pressure to change time to suit western audience.

*No safety car also resulted in digger in run off area when cars were flying past at reasonably high speed (and, of course, higher speed than they should have been)

It all boils down to organisational pressure to suit western TV audiences in the end.

Like most of us say it's the combinations of many things not boiling down to one or two.

You can't just say it just boils down to organisational pressure to suit TV audiences with a late start. Stop me if I'm wrong but has the start time for the race not remained the same? 15:00 local time, and 6:00am GMT.

Of course the start time factored in with the track conditions, and fading light with the typhoon does result in the decision being a factor. And of course the delay at the beginning due to the water on the track.

Again. It's many contributing factors. Doesn't boil down to one thing.

d8491prj5boyvg

Adamocovic wrote: »

Like most of us say it's the combinations of many things not boiling down to one or two.

You can't just say it just boils down to organisational pressure to suit TV audiences with a late start. Stop me if I'm wrong but has the start time for the race not remained the same? 15:00 local time, and 6:00am GMT.

Of course the start time factored in with the track conditions, and fading light with the typhoon does result in the decision being a factor. And of course the delay at the beginning due to the water on the track.

Again. It's many contributing factors. Doesn't boil down to one thing.

Oh yeah, definitely think its a combination of factors in the end, but if you take one variable out of the equation, late start time, then it is highly unlikely it would have been during heavy rain, that a digger would have been on a live run off area, that bianchi would have been under pressure to be on the limit of a yellow flagged area.

You're right, the start time was the same. There was pressure to move it earlier though when news of the typhoon came through and that wasn't heeded.

Adamocovic

Payton Low Corkscrew wrote: »

Oh yeah, definitely think its a combination of factors in the end, but if you take one variable out of the equation, late start time, then it is highly unlikely it would have been during heavy rain, that a digger would have been on a live run off area, that bianchi would have been under pressure to be on the limit of a yellow flagged area.

You're right, the start time was the same. There was pressure to move it earlier though when news of the typhoon came through and that wasn't heeded.

I agree that how they handled the face was a huge factor, think they had a certain start window with the rain so not sure if earlier was possible.

Do believe they failed to act and on the concerns and demands of the drivers on the radio with many calling for them to suspend/stop the race.

Anyway I'll leave it at that for the Bianchi discussions. It worked out odd that this topic was raised during the French F1 week (Althought I know Monaco was closer to home for him)

supremenovice

We're getting towards contract silly season. I'm thinking Estaban Ocon better get his CV ready and start knocking on doors cause I can't see them kicking out Bottas now. I don't think he has sponsors money so Williams is out of the equation. Maybe take Grosjean's seat?

Darkglasses

supremenovice wrote: »

We're getting towards contract silly season. I'm thinking Estaban Ocon better get his CV ready and start knocking on doors cause I can't see them kicking out Bottas now. I don't think he has sponsors money so Williams is out of the equation. Maybe take Grosjean's seat?

Is Giovinazzi at risk too maybe? Would love to see Ocon get a drive for the rest of the year.

supremenovice

You could honestly throw a blanket over a lot of them, in terms of ability.
Ocon is 'just another driver' in my opinion. If you took out Bottas and put in either of Ocon, Magnusson, Sainz, Kimi, Perez, Kyvat - they'd all get similar results to him I reckon. Good but nothing special.

vectra

supremenovice wrote: »

You could honestly throw a blanket over a lot of them, in terms of ability.
Ocon is 'just another driver' in my opinion, similar to Magnusson, Kyvat, Kimi, Perez, Sainz and Bottas. They all do a job for ya but nothing brilliant.

Something wrong with that comment.
3 world champions in this season
Kimi being one of them.

mickdw

Ocon is in a strange position. He has the full backing of Toto yet there is just nowhere to go.
He had to leave Racing point and Williams is not even worth going to realistically for the likes of him. Bottas is looking strong so it would be criminal to dump him so what does he do - leave mercedes camp? It's a tricky situation for him.

supremenovice

vectra wrote: »

Something wrong with that comment.
3 world champions in this season
Kimi being one of them.

Kimi was world champ 12 years ago. He was comprehensively beaten each of the four years he teamed with Vettel, who in turn is now rattled by Leclerc and was beaten fair and square by Danny Ric in 2014.
Kimi is a shadow of the driver he was back in the mid-noughties.

vectra

supremenovice wrote: »

Kimi was world champ 12 years ago. He was comprehensively beaten each of the four years he teamed with Vettel, who in turn is now rattled by Leclerc and was beaten fair and square by Danny Ric in 2014.
Kimi is a shadow of the driver he was back in the mid-noughties.

You are correct,
He was so bad last year he came 4th in the standings beating everyone bar the 2 mercs and his team mate << who he was only allowed to support.
He also beat Hamilton and Vettel in the US grand prix 2018
Not bad for someone that as you say is only a shadow of his former self.:pac:

El_Duderino 09

Darkglasses wrote: »

Is Giovinazzi at risk too maybe? Would love to see Ocon get a drive for the rest of the year.

Ocon is basically a Mercedes man so you're basically looking at him getting in one of the Mercedes powered cars. It's possible he could get in another car but it's not likely. Fact is people like Kubica and stroll are taking up space on the grid as pay drivers (and miles off the pace) where a decent driver like Ocon could be getting a chance.

supremenovice

vectra wrote: »

You are correct,
He was so bad last year he came 4th in the standings beating everyone bar the 2 mercs and his team mate << who he was only allowed to support.
He also beat Hamilton and Vettel in the US grand prix 2018
Not bad for someone that as you say is only a shadow of his former self.:pac:

Yeah who needs statistics, Kimi is as good a driver as Vettel :rolleyes:

meeeeh

Kimi clocked out years ago. I suspect he is still in F1 because he didn't find anything else to do that would interest him.

That being said Ferrari won't use Sauber to keep Merc's drivers race ready. Ocon won't replace Kimi.

El_Duderino 09

supremenovice wrote: »

You could honestly throw a blanket over a lot of them, in terms of ability.
Ocon is 'just another driver' in my opinion. If you took out Bottas and put in either of Ocon, Magnusson, Sainz, Kimi, Perez, Kyvat - they'd all get similar results to him I reckon. Good but nothing special.

Sainz, Kimi and Kvyat are hardly in the same league as the others above. Magnussen has a quality but is inconsistent. Perez is decent.

But Bottas is driving really well this year. I think he's one of the very top drivers at the moment. Well above the likes of Sainz, Kimi and Kvya.

supremenovice

The below is my opinion of the current grid:

The Elite: Hamilton & Verstappen
Very good: Ricciardo, Vettel, Leclerc
Above average: Gasly, Kimi, Kyvat, Hulk, Sainz, Magnussen, Russell, Albon, Norris, Perez, Bottas.
P45: Kubica, Grosjean, Stroll, Giovinazzi.

Hamilton and Verstappen are the best drivers on the grid. If the season comprised of all drivers driving a Mercedes, then these two would fight out the Championship. Max has taken another step forward this year and is pommeling the once highly rated Gasly. Ricciardo, Vettel and Leclerc are all very good...sometimes. Leclerc could join the elite over time, but hes not there yet. All three drivers would be beaten by Hamilton or Verstappen as team-mate (Ricciardo initially had the upper-hand on Verstappen but not last year.).
Kubica, Grosjean, Stroll and Giovinazzi will never win a grand prix (or a second in Kubica's case) or even beat their above-average team mates over a season.
As for the 'above averages' - they will never amount to much with the possible exception of Russell, who could be very good. Hulk is getting found out by Ricciardo. The rest have been exposed as decent drivers that would constantly beat each other but never the top two.
Bottas is driving well this season so far, and I hope he keeps it up, but he's already 5-2 down against Hamilton and I expect a similar gap by year end. Its laughable to think he was heralded as a 'like-for-like' swap with Rosberg a few years ago. Bottas has proven Rosberg was a great driver.

pjohnson

Actually what the feck happened in 2017 and how did Wehrlein get himelf the Sauber seat?

pjohnson

supremenovice wrote: »

Yeah who needs statistics, Kimi is as good a driver as Vettel :rolleyes:

Statistics will tell you Markus Winkelhock must be a great F1 driver as he is the only driver to have led in every race he started.

Adamocovic

supremenovice wrote: »

The below is my opinion of the current grid:

The Elite: Hamilton & Verstappen
Very good: Ricciardo, Vettel, Leclerc
Above average: Gasly, Kimi, Kyvat, Hulk, Sainz, Magnussen, Russell, Albon, Norris, Perez, Bottas.
P45: Kubica, Grosjean, Stroll, Giovinazzi.

I'm a bit bias as I'm no fan of Verstappen but as talented as he is I think it's generous to put him up on his own with Hamilton as one of the elite drivers.

Fantastic overtaker but makes costly mistakes. Crashing aside I think one of the most recent was in Monaco when he forgot to change back his engine torque after his pit and was stuck in the wrong setting all race after.

He's hugely talented and has bags of potential, you can overlook the mistakes as he's still young but like I said in my view a bit generous to label him as one of the elites.

Also think it's a bit harsh to have Bottas as just above average. Talented driver who seems to have kicked it on this year.

vectra

supremenovice wrote: »

Yeah who needs statistics, Kimi is as good a driver as Vettel :rolleyes:

Who ever said that?

supremenovice

Adamocovic wrote: »

I'm a bit bias as I'm no fan of Verstappen but as talented as he is I think it's generous to put him up on his own with Hamilton as one of the elite drivers.

Fantastic overtaker but makes costly mistakes. Crashing aside I think one of the most recent was in Monaco when he forgot to change back his engine torque after his pit and was stuck in the wrong setting all race after.

He's hugely talented and has bags of potential, you can overlook the mistakes as he's still young but like I said in my view a bit generous to label him as one of the elites.

Also think it's a bit harsh to have Bottas as just above average. Talented driver who seems to have kicked it on this year.

The reason i put Bottas there is Rosberg. Rosberg was not consistently on Hamiltons level over their 4 years together, Id put him a level just below that with Vettel and Ricciardo, but he did win 22 grand prix as Hamiltons team mate, a stat that Bottas will never get near. Rosberg was a lot more competitive with Hamilton than Bottas was or ever will be, hence I put him another notch below that.

muckwarrior

Adamocovic wrote: »

Fantastic overtaker but makes costly mistakes.

This time last year I would have agreed, but in the past 12 months or so he's been exemplary.

eviltimeban

It's hard to know if its down to natural talent, or just getting the mix right - right driver, right team, right car, right boss, right time.

I'd say all the drivers are at least on a reasonably similar level; we are seeing times within tenths of each other, not seconds. Where it differs is how the driver slots into the team. Sometimes it doesn't work when it should, and sometimes it works when no one expects it to.

Those who stand out, stand out. Like Verstappen. Hamilton stood out from day one. Someone like Hulk puts the hours in but hasn't had the chance to stand out. Their own motivation and drive (no pun intended) are critical really.

Joeface

Honda Bringing 3 engine upgrades to France and Turbos( for all 4 I think). Only 3 as avoiding a penalty with Albon and taking one with Kyvatt.

Hopefully it adds something extra .

Frank Bullitt

supremenovice wrote: »

The below is my opinion of the current grid:

The Elite: Hamilton & Verstappen
Very good: Ricciardo, Vettel, Leclerc
Above average: Gasly, Kimi, Kyvat, Hulk, Sainz, Magnussen, Russell, Albon, Norris, Perez, Bottas.
P45: Kubica, Grosjean, Stroll, Giovinazzi.

Hamilton and Verstappen are the best drivers on the grid. If the season comprised of all drivers driving a Mercedes, then these two would fight out the Championship. Max has taken another step forward this year and is pommeling the once highly rated Gasly. Ricciardo, Vettel and Leclerc are all very good...sometimes. Leclerc could join the elite over time, but hes not there yet. All three drivers would be beaten by Hamilton or Verstappen as team-mate (Ricciardo initially had the upper-hand on Verstappen but not last year.).
Kubica, Grosjean, Stroll and Giovinazzi will never win a grand prix (or a second in Kubica's case) or even beat their above-average team mates over a season.
As for the 'above averages' - they will never amount to much with the possible exception of Russell, who could be very good. Hulk is getting found out by Ricciardo. The rest have been exposed as decent drivers that would constantly beat each other but never the top two.
Bottas is driving well this season so far, and I hope he keeps it up, but he's already 5-2 down against Hamilton and I expect a similar gap by year end. Its laughable to think he was heralded as a 'like-for-like' swap with Rosberg a few years ago. Bottas has proven Rosberg was a great driver.

A 4 time world champion is only "very good"? Ah here.

meeeeh

Gintonious wrote: »

A 4 time world champion is only "very good"? Ah here.

Like Rosberg. Anyway Hamilton is an excellent driver but I think he was beaten three times by a different teammate. These comparisons often reflect driver preferences of the person compiling the list.

supremenovice

Gintonious wrote: »

A 4 time world champion is only "very good"? Ah here.

Vettel has the speed but is mentally fragile. He has made far too many driver errors since he has been challenging Hamilton for the title since 2017. Even in his Red Bull days, when the pressure was on, he cracked.

meeeeh wrote: »

Like Rosberg. Anyway Hamilton is an excellent driver but I think he was beaten three times by a different teammate. These comparisons often reflect driver preferences of the person compiling the list.

There have been numerous races in his career where Hamilton hasn't turned up for one reason or another, but in the past couple years particularly, his game is to a level now where he is at almost 100% every race, every qualifying session. He is the best qualifier, the best wet weather driver, the best passer, the coolest under pressure, despite his whinging on the radio. And, believe it or not, I'm a Sebastian Vettel and Ferrari fan but I can not ignore what I see on screen every two weeks - Hamilton has the mental edge over him. As hard as it is for me to say - Hamilton is the best driver in F1 and one of the greatest of all time. Vettel, Rosberg - great champions in their own right, and Rosberg is possibly the most under-rated champ in history, but I can not put them up on the same level as Hamilton.

Frank Bullitt

supremenovice wrote: »

Vettel has the speed but is mentally fragile. He has made far too many driver errors since he has been challenging Hamilton for the title since 2017. Even in his Red Bull days, when the pressure was on, he cracked.



There have been numerous races in his career where Hamilton hasn't turned up for one reason or another, but in the past couple years particularly, his game is to a level now where he is at almost 100% every race, every qualifying session. He is the best qualifier, the best wet weather driver, the best passer, the coolest under pressure, despite his whinging on the radio. And, believe it or not, I'm a Sebastian Vettel and Ferrari fan but I can not ignore what I see on screen every two weeks - Hamilton has the mental edge over him. As hard as it is for me to say - Hamilton is the best driver in F1 and one of the greatest of all time. Vettel, Rosberg - great champions in their own right, and Rosberg is possibly the most under-rated champ in history, but I can not put them up on the same level as Hamilton.

You are conveniently skipping over the races that he absolutely dominated, and also there was Monza 2008. Every driver has their cracks, Hamiltons showed up more in 2007, and 2011 was riddled with them too.

mickdw

Hamilton out in front is untouchable. Hamilton in an average car back in the pack does not shine.