Formula 1 2019 - General Discussion Thread

El_Duderino 09

chicorytip wrote: »

My point is neither Bottas nor Ocon are anywhere near good enough for the task. If I were Mercedes, Sainz is exactly the type I would be looking to recruit even if it meant buying out his contract with McLaren.

What's the task though? I think the task is to score Constructors points and pick up a couple of wins per season. They know they have a world champion in Hamilton so the teammate doesn't HAVE to be as good. If he can do a Rosberg and beat Hamilton then great.

I think the task for now is to win the Constructors. The long term plan is to replace Hamilton. Keeping bottas is not about replacing Hamilton. Hiring ocon is an attempt at succession planning.

If they go for bottas they will have to buy a driver to replace Hamilton. But if they have the best car they can probably anyone they want it will probably be more expensive.

skipper_G

Faugheen wrote: »

Honestly don't understand why people are picking on Bottas who is currently second in the drivers championship.

On paper there's not much more Bottas should be doing but look deeper and it's a slightly different picture. This article on racefans explained it quite well I thought
https://www.racefans.net/2019/08/09/what-rosbergs-last-mercedes-deal-tells-us-about-bottass-chances-of-staying/

My take on it is that Rosberg was a much better driver than Bottas is, when they took Bottas on it was a downgrade. His results were decent but never really spectacular and he has never looked like a credible threat to Hamilton. At the same time I don't necessarily believe that Ocon would be any closer to Hamilton than Bottas is. The big difference is probably that Ocon has more potential to improve.

Cork Trucker

Faugheen wrote: »

Honestly don't understand why people are picking on Bottas who is currently second in the drivers championship.

If Bottas keeps going the way he is then Verstappen will take 2nd off him in Belgium.

El_Duderino 09

Cork Trucker wrote: »

If Bottas keeps going the way he is then Verstappen will take 2nd off him in Belgium.

Yeah jut probably not actually in Belgium because of the circuit favouring ending power. I'd say merc and ferrari powered cars will do well. Honda and and Renault will struggle.

But I take your poin that verstappen is doing well. But keep.in mind we've had a few circuits that don't favour power. Spa and monza will be different a d much more likely to be a procession.

Verstappen is definitely faster than bottas but verstappen is definitely faster than everyone on the grid except Hamilton. So they can't fire bottas for that. I think it's a simple choice between bottas for the immediate future or ocon for the medium to long term future.

H3llR4iser

skipper_G wrote: »

On paper there's not much more Bottas should be doing but look deeper and it's a slightly different picture. This article on racefans explained it quite well I thought
https://www.racefans.net/2019/08/09/what-rosbergs-last-mercedes-deal-tells-us-about-bottass-chances-of-staying/

My take on it is that Rosberg was a much better driver than Bottas is, when they took Bottas on it was a downgrade. His results were decent but never really spectacular and he has never looked like a credible threat to Hamilton. At the same time I don't necessarily believe that Ocon would be any closer to Hamilton than Bottas is. The big difference is probably that Ocon has more potential to improve.

Well, anyone who came up with the rubbish about Rosberg being a "mediocre driver" either doesn't understand much about motorsport and F1, is a diehard Hamilton fan or has some form of beef with Nico.

At the end of 2016, putting any driver in the second Mercedes other than Alonso, Vettel, Ricciardo or Button (another often overlooked driver who beat Hamilton as a team mate) would have been a downgrade.

Mercedes had to make a choice to either get one of the these - Vettel and Ricciardo would've been difficult, Button was retiring but Alonso was definitely a possibility - or go for a lower profile driver who would have, in all likelyhood, just gone to serve as second fiddle to Hamilton. They went for Bottas as he was known to the team and has all the characteristics they needed: a steady, reliable pair of hands capable of delivering heaps of points while not quite on the "WOW!" level.

There's certainly merit in considering Mercedes wanting to follow in the steps of Red Bull and Ferrari, getting their young gun in the car as a projection for the future, but it remains to be seen - is Ocon their "future driver"? The article points out an extremely interesting fact - he has never driven in testing this year. IIRC, Russel has jumped on the Mercedes in his stead. That's pretty much what happened last year with Ferrari, when Leclerc took over from Alfa/Sauber for the testing.

A final season with Bottas and then Russel being promoted to the seat is definitely a realistic possibility.

chicorytip

El_Duderino 09 wrote:

What's the task though? I think the task is to score Constructors points and pick up a couple of wins per season. They know they have a world champion in Hamilton so the teammate doesn't HAVE to be as good. If he can do a Rosberg and beat Hamilton then great.

The "task" is to acheive complete dominance in the drivers championship, first and second position in every race. Freakish events, such as at Hockenheim recently, will occur but the Merc is the best car on the grid by a mile so Bottas ought to be delivering the goods on a far more consistent basis than he is doing. I think he lacks driving skills. It's as simple as that.

El_Duderino 09

chicorytip wrote: »

The "task" is to acheive complete dominance in the drivers championship, first and second position in every race. Freakish events, such as at Hockenheim recently, will occur but the Merc is the best car on the grid by a mile so Bottas ought to be delivering the goods on a far more consistent basis than he is doing. I think he lacks driving skills. It's as simple as that.

Yeah bit if verstappen is the best or at least the only driver who's close o Hamilton, then the only way they'll have Complete dominance is to hire verstappen. And they don't want to do that for the obvious reason that he would genuinely challenge and upset Hamilton.

I think that might want domination)or at least to win the drivers and Constructors, but I doubt they want the 2 best drivers in the team at the same time. They have the best car so they don't need genuine driver rivalry to win both championships.

lfc200

Gasly out and Albon in at Red Bull.
Not surprised in the slightest

Burkie1203

Albon in for Gasly

Gasly and Kvyat both at TR now

Harika

Not surprised, but would have promoting and then dropping Kyvat not meant two victories for Verstappen?

Adamocovic

Redbull can be very ruthless. Suppose that's part of the sport and Gasly hasn't lived up to it.

I do like Gasly, he's been out drove by Verstappen by a mile but I think it's been exagerrated. His first season and only ferrari, mercedes and his teammate ahead of him. He is far back though.

Just getting smacks of Kvyat again but he at least was given one full season before being dumped after a couple in the next.

Thought they'd have gone back to Kyvat rather than Albon. Really hope Gasly drives with a vengeance now and puts in some good displays for TR.

El_Duderino 09

Burkie1203 wrote: »

Albon in for Gasly

Gasly and Kvyat both at TR now

It will be interesting to see them against each other for the rest of the season. Hard to tell how good Kvyat is now that he seems to have hit some consistent form, and all the rest too. It will be great to see if Albon is any closer to Verstappen.

Cork Trucker

Red Bull made the move now in an attempt to snatch second in both championships surely. They hadn’t a prayer of second in the constructors with Gasly being so poor. Be interesting to see who’ll win the Kvyat/Gasly battle

TCP/IP

Cork Trucker wrote: »

Red Bull made the move now in an attempt to snatch second in both championships surely. They hadn’t a prayer of second in the constructors with Gasly being so poor. Be interesting to see who’ll win the Kvyat/Gasly battle

Have to agree this is all about trying to get second in the championship.

flazio

If I were Kvyat, I'd start talking to other teams for next year. 6 places and 11 points ahead of Albon in the championship and Albon gets the promotion. He'll end up at Haas, wait and see.

H3llR4iser

Meh, all logic would have said Kvyat was the man for the job as opposed to Albon - they risk burning out another driver.

As for Gasly...he's a feckin mystery; He's collected a couple of 4th places for Toro Rosso on merit, he's not a slow dude. I have a feeling the RB15 is designed and set up to suit Verstappen's style exclusively;Pretty much the same way Rory Byrne used to design cars tailored around Schumacher's "pointy", kart-like driving style which most other folks would find undriveable - with the exception of Barrichello (he did need a season or so to adapt) and Massa.

Maybe the reason behind putting Albon in the car rather than Daniil has to do with driving style indeed.

El_Duderino 09

Cork Trucker wrote: »

Red Bull made the move now in an attempt to snatch second in both championships surely. They hadn’t a prayer of second in the constructors with Gasly being so poor. Be interesting to see who’ll win the Kvyat/Gasly battle

Good spot. Its a shot to nothing. If they didn't change anything, Gasley was unlikely to help them win. If albon is better, he might help them get 2nd. If he's not better then they've lost nothing

pjohnson

That ramps up pressure on Albon significantly now. They did the exact same to Gasly. Kvyat would have been safer pick.

skipper_G

Albon has adapted really well to get up to speed in the Toro Rosso considering he'd never driven an F1 car until the first pre-season test. Like Kvyat & Gasly before him, this could ruin him if the results don't come, but he's better than most people give him credit for so it's a risk worth taking. He's unlikely to beat Verstappen any time soon and the gap may well start off similar to Gasly but he's studious enough that he will get closer. That's the thing Gasly hasn't been able to do

Adamocovic

Cork Trucker wrote: »

Red Bull made the move now in an attempt to snatch second in both championships surely. They hadn’t a prayer of second in the constructors with Gasly being so poor. Be interesting to see who’ll win the Kvyat/Gasly battle

True. Also think they'll use it to see how Albon does in the car to help with their decision for next year.

lfc200

While purely on standings and without knowing any history kvyat would have been the person you'd put in.
In reality Kvyat back there was unlikely to ever happen.
I do feel sorry for gasly but he has been thoroughly outraced by verstappen and F1 is a ruthless sport with Red Bull probably the most ruthless of all.
It's a results game and if someone else was in the red bull second seat for the first half of the year you'd have to imagine that they'd be ahead of Ferrari in the constructors.

pjohnson

lfc200 wrote: »

While purely on standings and without knowing any history kvyat would have been the person you'd put in.
In reality Kvyat back there was unlikely to ever happen.
I do feel sorry for gasly but he has been thoroughly outraced by verstappen and F1 is a ruthless sport with Red Bull probably the most ruthless of all.
It's a results game and if someone else was in the red bull second seat for the first half of the year you'd have to imagine that they'd be ahead of Ferrari in the constructors.

I think was it in Spain McLaren outright said they were aiming for 5th as the bemchmark. Gasly had dragged his Red Bull all the way back into the midfield battle. That would have annoyed Tost and Horner greatly.

patmahe

They'd have access to all the data on Albon so you'd assume they made the choice based on that and putting Kvyat in the car at this point would look like a climb down from when they dropped him originally (although I did think it was harsh when they did it). Red bull (Marko) do not like losing face.

If Albon screws up in his first couple of races, he could find himself back at Torro Rosso pretty quick and Kvyat in the car. Will be interesting to see if he can be closer to Max than Gasly was. I do feel bad for Gasly but F1 is a tough business with little room for underperformance, particularly in a front running car.

eviltimeban

Not that it's hugely important here but when you switch teams, you keep your drivers points yeah?

Adamocovic

eviltimeban wrote: »

Not that it's hugely important here but when you switch teams, you keep your drivers points yeah?

Driver keeps his individual points tally but they remain Red Bull championship points.

So will split it up. Anything he earns now on goes to STR tally, and is added to his personal tally.

Cork Trucker

2 respected F1 journalists see Kubica being shown the door of F1 altogether at the end of the season.
https://www.grandprix247.com/2019/08/12/journos-predict-kubica-to-lose-f1-seat-due-to-third-rate-car/

TCP/IP

Cork Trucker wrote: »

2 respected F1 journalists see Kubica being shown the door of F1 altogether at the end of the season.
https://www.grandprix247.com/2019/08/12/journos-predict-kubica-to-lose-f1-seat-due-to-third-rate-car/

Shame he is not shown the door over the summer break complete waste of a seat. Should never have been given a seat in the first place.

El_Duderino 09

TCP/IP wrote: »

Shame he is not shown the door over the summer break complete waste of a seat. Should never have been given a seat in the first place.

I think Williams have said his money is dependent on his seat so Williams would have to replace his money to replace him. But they might get some money and dump him. Maybe ocon with some Mercedes money?

I think it will be a long time before we hear the following argument again; "ah but hiring x driver would bring so much good will from fans, and airtime that sponsors will be queueing up"

Russell has no f1 profile and he gets loads of airtime because he's fast. Fast drivers get publicity.

skipper_G

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

I think Williams have said his money is dependent on his seat so Williams would have to replace his money to replace him. But they might get some money and dump him. Maybe ocon with some Mercedes money?

I think it will be a long time before we hear the following argument again; "ah but hiring x driver would bring so much good will from fans, and airtime that sponsors will be queueing up"

Russell has no f1 profile and he gets loads of airtime because he's fast. Fast drivers get publicity.

His seat could yet go to Latifi next season, he only needs a top 5 finish in F2 to get the superlicence points he needs, currently 2nd. And has more money than Kubica. I don't think Ocon is going anywhere near a Williams, Mercedes or Renault more like.

kksaints

Some old school RTE F1 coverage from 2000.

pjohnson

skipper_G wrote: »

His seat could yet go to Latifi next season, he only needs a top 5 finish in F2 to get the superlicence points he needs, currently 2nd. And has more money than Kubica. I don't think Ocon is going anywhere near a Williams, Mercedes or Renault more like.

Latifi is rumoured to be in line for Racing Point beside Stroll to form an all Canadian team if Haas moves for Perez. Wehrlein still linked to the Haas seat to replace Grosjean this year.

tipp_tipp_tipp

kksaints wrote: »

Some old school RTE F1 coverage from 2000.

That's fantastic, good memories! Thanks for posting!

flazio

Agreed. It might not have been great coverage. But it was our not great coverage.

Cork Trucker

David Croft is definitely the modern day Peter Collins

d8491prj5boyvg

H3llR4iser wrote: »

Maybe the reason behind putting Albon in the car rather than Daniil has to do with driving style indeed.

Excellent spot. If gasly performs well in the TR then there is a string chance this is why we've seen him struggle.

quokula

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

I think Williams have said his money is dependent on his seat so Williams would have to replace his money to replace him. But they might get some money and dump him. Maybe ocon with some Mercedes money?

I think it will be a long time before we hear the following argument again; "ah but hiring x driver would bring so much good will from fans, and airtime that sponsors will be queueing up"

Russell has no f1 profile and he gets loads of airtime because he's fast. Fast drivers get publicity.

Russell gets loads of airtime (on Sky) because he's English. He's generally the second slowest on the grid - obviously that's because of the car, but there's no evidence yet that he's anything more than average.

Adamocovic

quokula wrote: »

Russell gets loads of airtime (on Sky) because he's English. He's generally the second slowest on the grid - obviously that's because of the car, but there's no evidence yet that he's anything more than average.

I rate Russell quite highly and was a bit annoyed he got stuck with Williams.

A former F2 and F3 champ and very quick driver, just stuck in a slow car. Beating Albon and Norris in F2 last year then ending up in the worse car has to hurt.

In terms of ability until we see him in a quick car I get it can be hard to judge him but I think he's definitely above average.

Funny thing is that he's outqualified Kubica every race (some races over a 1 second faster!) and has finished ahead of him 10 out of 12 races. So if Russell at 21 is nothing more than average what does that say about Kubica!

Anyway, fully expect Russell to have a good career in F1. May be tougher now with Lando's rise and claim for the British public/fans when Hamilton does move aside.

skipper_G

Adamocovic wrote: »

I rate Russell quite highly and was a bit annoyed he got stuck with Williams.

A former F2 and F3 champ and very quick driver, just stuck in a slow car. Beating Albon and Norris in F2 last year then ending up in the worse car has to hurt.

In terms of ability until we see him in a quick car I get it can be hard to judge him but I think he's definitely above average.

Funny thing is that he's outqualified Kubica every race (some races over a 1 second faster!) and has finished ahead of him 10 out of 12 races. So if Russell at 21 is nothing more than average what does that say about Kubica!

Anyway, fully expect Russell to have a good career in F1. May be tougher now with Lando's rise and claim for the British public/fans when Hamilton does move aside.

Russell has all the makings of a star from everything I've seen, even in that awful car.

pjohnson

I still wouldnt be suprised to see Merc just release Ocon to join Renault and keep Russell to replace Bottas for 2021. Russells been more impressive in his shítbox of a car than Ocon was in the competitive Force India imo.

chicorytip

Cork Trucker wrote: »

David Croft is definitely the modern day Peter Collins

Monaaaahhhhco!

chicorytip

TCP/IP wrote: »

Cork Trucker wrote: »

2 respected F1 journalists see Kubica being shown the door of F1 altogether at the end of the season.
https://www.grandprix247.com/2019/08/12/journos-predict-kubica-to-lose-f1-seat-due-to-third-rate-car/

Shame he is not shown the door over the summer break complete waste of a seat. Should never have been given a seat in the first place.

It has been a far from disastrous comeback. What were people expecting of him exactly? He is still competent, not blindingly quick but steady, reliable and experienced enough to still be of value to the team. Looking at his driving at the moment he seems over cautious and lacking the confidence to drive the car to it's absolute limit, "wringing it's neck" as they say. He is losing time as a result of course but this could well change in time. It is only half way through the season. Gasly, Giovinazzi, Stroll and Vandoorne last year are others who have performed poorly relative to their team mates but can not be written off completely as a result.

El_Duderino 09

chicorytip wrote: »

It has been a far from disastrous comeback. What were people expecting of him exactly? He is still competent, not blindingly quick but steady, reliable and experienced enough to still be of value to the team. Looking at his driving at the moment he seems over cautious and lacking the confidence to drive the car to it's absolute limit, "wringing it's neck" as they say. He is losing time as a result of course but this could well change in time. It is only half way through the season. Gasly, Giovinazzi, Stroll and Vandoorne last year are others who have performed poorly relative to their team mates but can not be written off completely as a result.

What were people expecting of him? He was touted as a world champion in waiting. it's a legend which been allowed to grow wild since his absence and would have undoubtedly led to him being ranked as one of the best of all time if it weren't for the accident.

I expected him to be quick. I expected him to be worth his place on the grid. I expected him to be competitive if not quicker than a rookie child teammate. Not a very high bar but none of these things have happened.

What did you expect from him and is he living up to your expectations.

Faugheen

Russell only a week and a half ago was 0.05 seconds off qualifying to Q2 on merit.

In a Williams.

If we judge drivers based on the car they're in then Alonso and Webber would have been written off a long time ago.

Cork Trucker

chicorytip wrote: »

Monaaaahhhhco!

He said it like “Monacko” He was some clown, as fake as they got. Croft just creams himself at the sound of Hamilton let alone the sight of him. Reminds me of the episode of Fr Ted with all the oul ones getting excited over the Daniel O’Donnell style guy

Harika

Faugheen wrote: »

Russell only a week and a half ago was 0.05 seconds off qualifying to Q2 on merit.

In a Williams.
o.

Some years ago this would have been a reason for instant dismissal. Sad state of affairs

El_Duderino 09

skipper_G wrote: »

Russell has all the makings of a star from everything I've seen, even in that awful car.

And while you might be right, you haven seen enough to know one way or the other.

He seems to have a great attitude and he's beaten kubica. That's all we know. I suspect you're right and more to the point, I'd like to see him kick on and be a star. But we really only have evidence of him against kubica. How is he at overtaking? Hasn't come upuch this season because he has been at the back all season. How I'd he as defending? Don't know for the same reason. How is he on tyres and strategy? How is he under pressure? Don't know, is the honest answer.

But we don't have to declare him a star or a future world champion. We can just wait and see how he develops.

chicorytip

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

chicorytip wrote: »

It has been a far from disastrous comeback. What were people expecting of him exactly? He is still competent, not blindingly quick but steady, reliable and experienced enough to still be of value to the team. Looking at his driving at the moment he seems over cautious and lacking the confidence to drive the car to it's absolute limit, "wringing it's neck" as they say. He is losing time as a result of course but this could well change in time. It is only half way through the season. Gasly, Giovinazzi, Stroll and Vandoorne last year are others who have performed poorly relative to their team mates but can not be written off completely as a result.

What were people expecting of him? He was touted as a world champion in waiting. it's a legend which been allowed to grow wild since his absence and would have undoubtedly led to him being ranked as one of the best of all time if it weren't for the accident.

I expected him to be quick. I expected him to be worth his place on the grid. I expected him to be competitive if not quicker than a rookie child teammate. Not a very high bar but none of these things have happened.

What did you expect from him and is he living up to your expectations.

It's all about the car though. It's amazing that he can still drive at all considering his disability. Williams knew exactly what he was capable of before they appointed him. They knew that Russell would become the lead driver and were happy enough. I don't think Kubica's sponsorship deal had any bearing on things. The Latifi fellah has big bucks as well but is not well regarded so Bob the Pole is the right man for the foreseeable future. By the way, the Russell Q1 time in Germany was compromised greatly because both Ricciardo and Magnussen, faster cars, aborted their final runs so Russell's finishing position was false. Williams have made only slight progress, still way off the pace.

Harika

chicorytip wrote: »

It's all about the car though. It's amazing that he can still drive at all considering his disability. Williams knew exactly what he was capable of before they appointed him. They knew that Russell would become the lead driver and were happy enough. I don't think Kubica's sponsorship deal had any bearing on things. The Latifi fellah has big bucks as well but is not well regarded so Bob the Pole is the right man for the foreseeable future. By the way, the Russell Q1 time in Germany was compromised greatly because both Ricciardo and Magnussen, faster cars, aborted their final runs so Russell's finishing position was false. Williams have made only slight progress, still way off the pace.

lol to the bold part
Also Latifi didn't have the super license yet. His daddy also tried to buy FI so he is poking at Kubicas cockpit.

JPF82

Russell had a good opening lap in Hungary.

https://twitter.com/F1/status/1158992418319900672?s=19

skipper_G

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

And while you might be right, you haven seen enough to know one way or the other.

He seems to have a great attitude and he's beaten kubica. That's all we know. I suspect you're right and more to the point, I'd like to see him kick on and be a star. But we really only have evidence of him against kubica. How is he at overtaking? Hasn't come upuch this season because he has been at the back all season. How I'd he as defending? Don't know for the same reason. How is he on tyres and strategy? How is he under pressure? Don't know, is the honest answer.

But we don't have to declare him a star or a future world champion. We can just wait and see how he develops.

I've watched him in GP3 and F2, I've seen enough evidence of his racecraft to convince me. The unknown quantity was how he would adapt to F1 and what is he like when fighting in the mix. I think he's adapted rather well so far, but I accept that's inherently subjective. The second we haven't been able to judge because the Williams is a motorised turd and his teammate is a step behind.