Formula 1 2019 - General Discussion Thread

This is it

vectra wrote: »

More than likely,
But, nobody can foresee the future.

No, but you can be fairly certain.

Lewis 1/100 to win, next favorite is LeClerc at 50/1.

H3llR4iser

As much as I would like it to be true, I don't buy into the "Ferrari resurgence" narrative. Sure, they brought a lot of updates post-break, the car has definitely improved, but as many said - they were expected to dominate in Spa and Monza, and they actually did not as Mercedes were right there with them, even with an absolutely ridiculous difference on the straights.

As for Singapore, are we really sure it was a "bad track" for Ferrari? It is a street course but it's a bit of a peculiar one - it's got a lot of stop-start segments, where power and traction make the difference, both areas in which the SF90 excels; Their time in qualifying was mostly made in sector 1, where they were no less than 0.3-0.4 ahead (I hadn't seen such difference on straights since the early '90s, with V8s against V10s and V12s). I would expect them to be competitive again in Sochi the coming week end, but I'll be curious to see how the car behaves on actual sweeping bends come Suzuka.

The reality is that without Leclerc's aggression in Monza, Vettel's helping hand in Spa and without both drivers AND the pitwall putting in perfect performances yesterday, these three victories wouldn't have happened.

Finally, the slew of updates brought in Singapore might be a bit worrisome - I understand they wanted to win some races this season, but it's the end of September, hopefully they aren't keeping focus away from next season's chassis in order to improve the current. Italian management, lack of prospective and all that...

uchimata83

Theres a channel on Youtube called deeppius, has been posting the season reviews from 1997 up to 2004. I'm just finished watching 2003 and in hindsight, it really feels like the Jordan team really missed out on some great opportunties.

Honda coming back at the time did them no favours, but dropping from 3rd in the constructors in 99 to 6th in 00, behind BAR and Benneton, looks like it was the beginning of the end.

It's weird looking back on it now and it gives some great perspective on what they achieved in those first 8 years. I often wonder how much focus and finance that lost case vs Vodafone cost the team.

Cork Trucker

uchimata83 wrote: »

Theres a channel on Youtube called deeppius, has been posting the season reviews from 1997 up to 2004. I'm just finished watching 2003 and in hindsight, it really feels like the Jordan team really missed out on some great opportunties.

Honda coming back at the time did them no favours, but dropping from 3rd in the constructors in 99 to 6th in 00, behind BAR and Benneton, looks like it was the beginning of the end.

It's weird looking back on it now and it gives some great perspective on what they achieved in those first 8 years. I often wonder how much focus and finance that lost case vs Vodafone cost the team.

I always wondered how the Jordan livery would have been with Vodafone, in that would it have only been red where the logo was similar to McLaren or all red like Ferrari. Sacking Frentzen didn’t help team morale either in 2001

H3llR4iser

uchimata83 wrote: »

Theres a channel on Youtube called deeppius, has been posting the season reviews from 1997 up to 2004. I'm just finished watching 2003 and in hindsight, it really feels like the Jordan team really missed out on some great opportunties.

Honda coming back at the time did them no favours, but dropping from 3rd in the constructors in 99 to 6th in 00, behind BAR and Benneton, looks like it was the beginning of the end.

It's weird looking back on it now and it gives some great perspective on what they achieved in those first 8 years. I often wonder how much focus and finance that lost case vs Vodafone cost the team.

The Jordan team was impressive to say the least - when they debuted in 1991, they were right on the pace and seriously risked winning a race at Spa, but De Cesaris' proverbial luck struck again with an engine issue.



In 1999 they had a real chance at the WDC with Frentzen - in part due to the crazy nature of that season, but also because they had proper potential. I don't think they realized they were in contention until Monza, and promptly went to take pole in the next race - where it all unraveled with a retirement. Had Frentzen won that race, the outcome might have been very different.

Cork Trucker

H3llR4iser wrote: »

The Jordan team was impressive to say the least - when they debuted in 1991, they were right on the pace and seriously risked winning a race at Spa, but De Cesaris' proverbial luck struck again with an engine issue.



In 1999 they had a real chance at the WDC with Frentzen - in part due to the crazy nature of that season, but also because they had proper potential. I don't think they realized they were in contention until Monza, and promptly went to take pole in the next race - where it all unraveled with a retirement. Had Frentzen won that race, the outcome might have been very different.

Off the top of my head that year the top 4 in the drivers championship were

Hakkinen 76
Irvine 74
Frentzen 54
Coulthard 48

Constructors

Ferrari 128
McLaren 124
Jordan 61
Stewart 36

Jordan never stood a chance in the constructors due to Hill being so poor that year

I think the points figures are right.

Harika

True, during the season frentzen was really close to the two of them. He was 10 points behind

Cork Trucker

Harika wrote: »

True, during the season frentzen was really close to the two of them. He was 10 points behind

When you think of the points he lost that year

Australia, finished second after Ferrari got Irvine out first in the pit stops

Imola , retired after spinning out on Irvine’s oil.

Canada, crashed out towards the end due to brake failure, first ever race to finish under the safety car as a result

Nurburgring, retired with electrical failure while in the lead

uchimata83

I'm certain that Hill wanted out at Silverstone in 99 and EJ said that he could retire as long as he compensated the team. And that probably sums up Eddie in a nutshell - rather than getting rid of a driver who didn't want to race, he tried to make a few quid off him and no one ended up happy.

I think there was no concorde agreement in place when he sold the team too (or some contractual agreement with the teams) when he sold it on too. Midland got it for a song and probably came close to doubling their money

Cork Trucker

uchimata83 wrote: »

I'm certain that Hill wanted out at Silverstone in 99 and EJ said that he could retire as long as he compensated the team. And that probably sums up Eddie in a nutshell - rather than getting rid of a driver who didn't want to race, he tried to make a few quid off him and no one ended up happy.

I think there was no concorde agreement in place when he sold the team too (or some contractual agreement with the teams) when he sold it on too. Midland got it for a song and probably came close to doubling their money

Not too far apart in what i heard at the time, that if Hill tried to quit then Jordan told him he'd sue him for breach of contract. Jos Verstappen was testing the car after Silverstone in preparation to step into the race seat, in all likelihood he wouldn't have done any worse.

Frank Bullitt

If only Ferrari had this pace from the start of the season...

chicorytip

Gintonious wrote: »

If only Ferrari had this pace from the start of the season...

I think they have had the pace all year and really should have six victories on the board by now.

El_Duderino 09

chicorytip wrote: »

I think they have had the pace all year and really should have six victories on the board by now.

Yeah but they say they made some breakthroughs in understanding the car since the summer break. Ferrari has a terrible habit of nit understanding the car. last year they brought a new floor after the summer break which actually made the car slower. and they have often brought updates which don't work. Imagine the wasted money and the opportunity cost of developing something that doesn't even work. We never hear of Mercedes ballsing up like that.

Ferrari must be the worst value for money team on the grid

Frank Bullitt

chicorytip wrote: »

I think they have had the pace all year and really should have six victories on the board by now.

They were robbed at Bahrain in terms of reliability, and Canada was a travesty.

I hope this car serves as a good basis for them for 2020 at least.

As a side, I was quite happy to see Vettel win yesterday. Not everyone likes him but it was a classic Vettel drive of controlling from the front and doing a firm job at that.

Infoanon

Cork Trucker wrote: »

uchimata83 wrote: »

I'm certain that Hill wanted out at Silverstone in 99 and EJ said that he could retire as long as he compensated the team. And that probably sums up Eddie in a nutshell - rather than getting rid of a driver who didn't want to race, he tried to make a few quid off him and no one ended up happy.

I think there was no concorde agreement in place when he sold the team too (or some contractual agreement with the teams) when he sold it on too. Midland got it for a song and probably came close to doubling their money

Not too far apart in what i heard at the time, that if Hill tried to quit then Jordan told him he'd sue him for breach of contract. Jos Verstappen was testing the car after Silverstone in preparation to step into the race seat, in all likelihood he wouldn't have done any worse.

Damon Hill in his book says Eddie tried to replace him before Silverstone, Damon wanted to quit after Silverstone but then Eddie held him to his contract and Damon,fearful of losing everything financially, continued to the end of the season when he famously retired the car

Cork Trucker

Infoanon wrote: »

Damon Hill in his book says Eddie tried to replace him before Silverstone, Damon wanted to quit after Silverstone but then Eddie held him to his contract and Damon,fearful of losing everything financially, continued to the end of the season when he famously retired the car

Why did Eddie back out of replacing him before Silverstone? to allow him take part in the race? Vetstappen was the favourite to take that seat, but unknown to me until last night Nick Heidfeld was being permitted to take the drive as well, we all know how good friends Eddie was with Ron Dennis. Hill in Japan ran wide at spoon corner into the gravel and parked the car claiming it damaged, when the team checked it over the car was in perfect condition.

Infoanon

Cork Trucker wrote: »

Infoanon wrote: »

Damon Hill in his book says Eddie tried to replace him before Silverstone, Damon wanted to quit after Silverstone but then Eddie held him to his contract and Damon,fearful of losing everything financially, continued to the end of the season when he famously retired the car

Why did Eddie back out of replacing him before Silverstone? to allow him take part in the race? Vetstappen was the favourite to take that seat, but unknown to me until last night Nick Heidfeld was being permitted to take the drive n.

Damons book does not elaborate on that although you can come to the conclusion that this for EJ was pure business.
Damon clearly had lost all motivation, feared getting injured,thoughts of Eddie playing games giving him an inferior car even ran through his head and was only competitive at Silverstone.Graham Hill,Damons father death and how the family had been left penniless had a major impact on Damon and his last season (something he is very open about in the book )

Cork Trucker

Infoanon wrote: »

Damons book does not elaborate on that although you can come to the conclusion that this for EJ was pure business.
Damon clearly had lost all motivation, feared getting injured,thoughts of Eddie playing games giving him an inferior car even ran through his head and was only competitive at Silverstone.Graham Hill,Damons father death and how the family had been left penniless had a major impact on Damon and his last season (something he is very open about in the book )

I'll have to have a look at that book, Hill wasn't the worst of drivers, and i certainly feel he was hard done by with Williams in 1996 when they didn't renew the contract, i don't think he'd have successfully defended the title against Villeneuve but would have done better than Frenzten for 97, even when you look at it in the few short years how Hill & Frenzten's fortunes changed between 96-99. I can see where Damon was coming from with regards his own father and how anyone couldn't understand that is beyond me. Jordan was never the kind to just cut a contract on mutual terms, even when he sacked Frenzten, HH still got money out of EJ. I did a bit of reading up on the plane crash with Graham Hill, he had no licence, therefore no insurance or something and the relatives of those who died sued his estate, hence being penniless i think. Whatever occurred across the winter of 98/99, Hill was not the same driver. Is there any mention of his time with Arrows? Hungary 1997 is the stand out moment of course.

Robbo

Hill did an F1: Beyond the Grid podcast a few months ago that's well worth a listen. He goes into detail about the contractual situations he wound up in with Williams and Jordan.

vectra

Alfa lose German gp appeal.
https://formulaspy.com/f1/alfa-lose-appeal-over-german-grand-prix-disqualification-64737

Cork Trucker

vectra wrote: »

Alfa lose German gp appeal.
https://formulaspy.com/f1/alfa-lose-appeal-over-german-grand-prix-disqualification-64737

Kubica keeps the point for 10th then. Had they been reinstated then Williams were on course for their first ever pointless season weren’t they?

pjohnson

Apparently Haas ran Grosjean back in a hybrid version of his Aus spec in Singapore (same floor and wings as Australia but newer sidepods) while Magnussen ran the consistently "updated since Australia" spec. They stopped this split spec before Singapore but retried it last weekend.

They now plan on getting Magnussen into this hybrid Aus spec.

uchimata83

Robbo wrote: »

Hill did an F1: Beyond the Grid podcast a few months ago that's well worth a listen. He goes into detail about the contractual situations he wound up in with Williams and Jordan.

I had a listen back to this, Hill said that Jordan was tough to deal with and wanted him gone before Silverstone and for a finnish driver - perhaps Mika Salo, although I'm not sure.

One depressing thought which makes me seriously feel my age, the Jordan team are now gone from the sport longer than they were in it.

Cork Trucker

uchimata83 wrote: »

I had a listen back to this, Hill said that Jordan was tough to deal with and wanted him gone before Silverstone and for a finnish driver - perhaps Mika Salo, although I'm not sure.

One depressing thought which makes me seriously feel my age, the Jordan team are now gone from the sport longer than they were in it.

I’d say Salo as it was before Schumacher broke his leg. Badoer would’ve been recalled from minardi in that case. Sarrazin would have gotten another crack at F1

supremenovice

Cork Trucker wrote: »

I'll have to have a look at that book, Hill wasn't the worst of drivers, and i certainly feel he was hard done by with Williams in 1996 when they didn't renew the contract, i don't think he'd have successfully defended the title against Villeneuve but would have done better than Frenzten for 97, even when you look at it in the few short years how Hill & Frenzten's fortunes changed between 96-99. I can see where Damon was coming from with regards his own father and how anyone couldn't understand that is beyond me. Jordan was never the kind to just cut a contract on mutual terms, even when he sacked Frenzten, HH still got money out of EJ. I did a bit of reading up on the plane crash with Graham Hill, he had no licence, therefore no insurance or something and the relatives of those who died sued his estate, hence being penniless i think. Whatever occurred across the winter of 98/99, Hill was not the same driver. Is there any mention of his time with Arrows? Hungary 1997 is the stand out moment of course.

Heinz-Harald Frentzen was psychologically mauled by Patrick Head and Jacques Villeneuve when he joined Williams in 1997. Head was annoyed that Hill was dropped by Frank Williams in 1996 and Villeneuve was a master at psyching out his fragile team-mates (just ask Ricardo Zonta). Frentzen didnt stick up for himself and didnt even have full say over car set-up. He showed occasional signs of brilliance in Imola (his only win), Monaco qualifying, Budapest and Suzuka and in 1998 was a lot more competitive against Villeneuve. Eddie Jordan rejuvenated Frentzen at Jordan in 1999 and thrived with his arm-around-the-shoulder management style. Frentzen won brilliantly at Monza and Magny Cours and was in the title fight until he DNFd at the Nurburgring while leading, and Hakkinen went on to win the title in Suzuka. He pommeled his team mate Hill who was struggling to regain his 1996 form. Frentzen had a solid year in 2000 with his team mate Jarno Trulli but things went sideways in 2001 and form dipped and was sacked by Jordan after the British Grand Prix.
Frentzen was a confidence driver, not unlike Sebastian Vettel really - if a hardy teammate puts it up to him, he wilts.

uchimata83

supremenovice wrote: »

Villeneuve was a master at psyching out his fragile team-mates (just ask Ricardo Zonta.)

Not too sure about this. Villeneuve was schooled by any half decent team mate that put it up to him. The BAR team was his and Craig Pollock's fantasy project, no driver coming in there had a chance, especially not someone as green as Zonta was at the time. Post Canada 97 Panis was not the same driver. Sato was, well Sato - immensely brave but stupid too. Massa got the better of him and Heidfeld did too.
Jacques first and greatest love was himself

Cork Trucker

On this day 20 years ago Johnny Herbert took his 3rd and Stewart's only victory. It should definitely feature on the Sky F1 classic races.

https://twitter.com/1990sF1/status/1176995067699109888

Jordan 199

^ A race that brings painful memories for me.

Cork Trucker

Jordan 199 wrote: »

^ A race that brings painful memories for me.

Well the qualifying was euphoria if anything, the race itself was the end of the championship quest for Frentzen, also his last pole position.

Joeface

Not sure this is even remotely interesting but here is the current Race ratings by boards race thread post counts

Position Race Post Count
1 Germany 523
2 Canada 324
3 Austria 304
4 Italy 304
5 Monaco 272
6 Beligum 269
7 Bahrain 264
8 Baku 253
9 Australia 250
10 Silverstone 242
11 Singapore 158
12 Hungry 139
13 Spain 102
14 China 101
15 France 64

the_pen_turner

Joeface wrote: »

Not sure this is even remotely interesting but here is the current Race ratings by boards race thread post counts

Position Race Post Count
1 Germany 523
2 Canada 324
3 Austria 304
4 Italy 304
5 Monaco 272
6 Beligum 269
7 Bahrain 264
8 Baku 253
9 Australia 250
10 Silverstone 242
11 Singapore 158
12 Hungry 139
13 Spain 102
14 China 101
15 France 64

thats interesting but ultimetly pointless.
you could post on post saying how amazing a race was or 10 posts about how something trivial that happened

Inviere

the_pen_turner wrote: »

thats interesting but ultimetly pointless.
you could post on post saying how amazing a race was or 10 posts about how something trivial that happened

It should show a general trend of how people react to races, very very general mind. I've often seen very clearly exciting races being voted 1 or 2 outta 10, obviously for the lulz.

Cork Trucker

Paul Ricard needs to go, no if's no but's it's a crap track, Magny Cours was even better than it.

El_Duderino 09

Cork Trucker wrote: »

Paul Ricard needs to go, no if's no but's it's a crap track, Magny Cours was even better than it.

Completely agree. It’s a poor race, the lines around the track look stupid. The camera angles are way too far back. It’s like a football stadium with a running track around the pitch.

But that’s not how tracks are chosen. Given the Renault involvement, I’m surprised there hasn’t been a French GP sooner.

As long as they pay the fees the race will stay on the calendar. The German GP is in real danger of dropping off because it can’t pay the fee so that’s the deciding factor.

AMKC

Joeface wrote: »

Not sure this is even remotely interesting but here is the current Race ratings by boards race thread post counts

Position Race Post Count
1 Germany 523
2 Canada 324
3 Austria 304
4 Italy 304
5 Monaco 272
6 Beligum 269
7 Bahrain 264
8 Baku 253
9 Australia 250
10 Silverstone 242
11 Singapore 158
12 Hungry 139
13 Spain 102
14 China 101
15 France 64

I am surprised that Silverstone is quite low as that is the only live race on Channel 4 now you would think it would have the most posts but maybe we are looking at it the wrong way. Maybe the races with the least posts were the ones that were watched more and the ones with the most posts were boring and everyone was on here posting. However by that logic that would mean with France having the least amount of posts was the best race so far this year and Germany the worst race which is not right.

patmahe

This is pure speculation on my part, but after Singapore I have a sneaking suspicion that Mercedes reckon they have this years championship in the bag and have switched focus to next years car hence the drop off in pace.

Hamiltion is almost 100 points clear of the next non-Mercedes driver so hard to blame them with 6 races to go. Constructors looks pretty secure too. Could make for an interesting end to the season.

Cork Trucker

patmahe wrote: »

This is pure speculation on my part, but after Singapore I have a sneaking suspicion that Mercedes reckon they have this years championship in the bag and have switched focus to next years car hence the drop off in pace.

Hamiltion is almost 100 points clear of the next non-Mercedes driver so hard to blame them with 6 races to go. Constructors looks pretty secure too. Could make for an interesting end to the season.

Ferrari did similar in 1999 after Schumacher broke his leg, they switched focus to the 2000 car, you might well be right on that, Bottas won't be allowed challenge and a near calamity is needed for Hamilton to lose it now.

Jordan 199

I just saw Ralf Schumacher in the Toro Rosso garage in Sochi. Didn't see him on television for a while.

El_Duderino 09

Jordan 199 wrote: »

I just saw Ralf Schumacher in the Toro Rosso garage in Sochi. Didn't see him on television for a while.

His nipper David has a driver in F3 this weekend. He’s standing in for the bloke who got injured flying through the air in monza a couple of weeks ago

Inquitus

Joeface wrote: »

Not sure this is even remotely interesting but here is the current Race ratings by boards race thread post counts

Position Race Post Count
1 Germany 523
2 Canada 324
3 Austria 304
4 Italy 304
5 Monaco 272
6 Beligum 269
7 Bahrain 264
8 Baku 253
9 Australia 250
10 Silverstone 242
11 Singapore 158
12 Hungry 139
13 Spain 102
14 China 101
15 France 64

Divide the Total by the number of vote to give a meaningful stat.

skipper_G

Juicy rumour tine, Mclaren switching to Mercedes engines???

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/mclaren-mercedes-engine-deal-2021/4548906/

El_Duderino 09

skipper_G wrote: »

Juicy rumour tine, Mclaren switching to Mercedes engines???

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/mclaren-mercedes-engine-deal-2021/4548906/

That would be great. The Mercedes engine doesn’t have the same advantage it had when Mercedes moves away from them in favour of Honda. But it would be a big step up in terms of reliability and presumably, the ability to run the engine at higher power more often.

Really hope it happens.

mickdw

A customer engine doesn't suggest that they are looking to beat mercedes any time soon.
Ron Dennis had the right idea but poorly timed. Red bull are now sitting pretty having their own engine supply.

pjohnson

Williams to switch to Renault then?

skipper_G

pjohnson wrote: »

Williams to switch to Renault then?

Not likely given they've just recently signed a new contract with Merc as have Racing Point

pjohnson

skipper_G wrote: »

Not likely given they've just recently signed a new contract with Merc as have Racing Point

Forgot that. Seems much to be suppllying 4 teams.

Cork Trucker

pjohnson wrote: »

Forgot that. Seems much to be suppllying 4 teams.

Mercedes need special dispensation from the FIA to supply more than 3 teams, looks like Renault will only have themselves to supply unless someone new comes along.

Dont be at yourself

Could see Renault leaving F1 if they don't get a customer team for their engines.

Cork Trucker

Dont be at yourself wrote: »

Could see Renault leaving F1 if they don't get a customer team for their engines.

Ferrari have themselves,Haas and Alfa Romeo sorted.
Honda are unlikely to break away from Red Bull and Toro Rosso
Mercedes have themselves, Williams,Racing Point already under contract with McLaren linked for 2021
Renault just their own team, i don't see any of the above changing.

If Renault leave will each team provide a third car or will it be only 9 teams?

uchimata83

McLaren must be kicking themselves, went through the years of pain with Honda, only to see the engine come good as soon as they got rid of it. What Zak Brown didn't realise, is that McLaren needed Honda, a lot more than Honda needed McLaren