Formula 1 2019 - General Discussion Thread

El_Duderino 09

mickdw wrote: »

Very true but the simplicity of the design of the cars from that era makes them look just about right to the eye.

It looks simple now. But at the time it was the cutting edge, most high tech, most down force, most intricate wings. No doubt people looked at that car and pines for the good old days when things were simpler.

elperello

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

It looks simple now. But at the time it was the cutting edge, most high tech, most down force, most intricate wings. No doubt people looked at that car and pines for the good old days when things were simpler.

I think all generations if they close their eyes and try to visualise a "racing car" will tend to return to an earlier time.

By the way I heard Martin Brundle saying that the McLaren was the 54th Formula 1 car he has driven.

El_Duderino 09

Cork Trucker wrote: »

Sainz will end up on the podium in the next year or 2, 77 races is almost 4 seasons. If the McLaren chassis keeps improving then with a Mercedes engine it’ll happen in 21 or sooner

We'll, there you have it. 2 bloke's get their first podium and poor Hulk watches on.

It was a bit of a lottery today particularly with sainz starting at the back. But Gasley was having a. Good race.

For another car to get on the podium it took a Mercedes engine retirement, 2 ferraris taking each other out, and Hamilton to crash Into albon which dropped them both down.

5of the top 6 out of contention. Absolutely astronomical odds of that kind of thing happening.

recyclebin

Yeah, only way anyone else bar the top 6 can get near a podium is by them taking each other out or rain or well timed safety car. On raw speed there is no chance.

Cork Trucker

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

We'll, there you have it. 2 bloke's get their first podium and poor Hulk watches on.

It was a bit of a lottery today particularly with sainz starting at the back. But Gasley was having a. Good race.

For another car to get on the podium it took a Mercedes engine retirement, 2 ferraris taking each other out, and Hamilton to crash Into albon which dropped them both down.

5of the top 6 out of contention. Absolutely astronomical odds of that kind of thing happening.

It must be the luck of Boards.ie :pac: No sooner were we Discussing Sainz and it happened Great result for Gasly, mightily impressed with the Honda engine against the Mercedes up the hill, Gasly admitted that Bottas/Stroll in Baku was playing on his mind when it was happening. The only pity for Sainz was that he could not stand on the podium in real time. Hulkenberg will keep the record for a bit longer, who is next up for it? All the events that happened in the race is how it should be every weekend, loads of action, not processions as we had for the first 5 races of the season.

muckwarrior

The last time a McLaren driver stood on the podium they hadn't really earned it.
Now they finally earned a podium but didn't get to stand on it.

Cork Trucker

muckwarrior wrote: »

The last time a McLaren driver stood on the podium they hadn't really earned it.
Now they finally earned a podium but didn't get to stand on it.

Magnussen 2nd & Button 3rd after Ricciardo was disqualified from 2nd for a fuel flow issue in Melbourne 2014.

Ironically that would be the last time Button would be classified with a podium finish even if he didn't physically stand on it, that came in Brazil 2012 following his victory, where a certain then Force India driver could have potentially taken victory, the same guy's name eludes me (i joke :pac:) in the way podiums have eluded him

muckwarrior

Cork Trucker wrote: »

Magnussen 2nd & Button 3rd after Ricciardo was disqualified from 2nd for a fuel flow issue in Melbourne 2014.

Ironically that would be the last time Button would be classified with a podium finish even if he didn't physically stand on it, that came in Brazil 2012 following his victory, where a certain then Force India driver could have potentially taken victory, the same guy's name eludes me (i joke :pac:) in the way podiums have eluded him

I was talking about this



And ironically they were both in Brazil!

Cork Trucker

muckwarrior wrote: »

I was talking about this



And ironically they were both in Brazil!

Ah that was a good stunt haha.

chicorytip

Cork Trucker wrote: »

It must be the luck of Boards.ie :pac: No sooner were we Discussing Sainz and it happened Great result for Gasly, mightily impressed with the Honda engine against the Mercedes up the hill, Gasly admitted that Bottas/Stroll in Baku was playing on his mind when it was happening. The only pity for Sainz was that he could not stand on the podium in real time. Hulkenberg will keep the record for a bit longer, who is next up for it? All the events that happened in the race is how it should be every weekend, loads of action, not processions as we had for the first 5 races of the season.

The penalty for Hamilton was ludicrous. The gap was there so he was entitled to attempt the pass. I think he was being sympathetic toward Albon by blaming himself for the collision. He deserved second place and would have beaten Gasly to the line had he not suffered front wing damage.

Cork Trucker

chicorytip wrote: »

The penalty for Hamilton was ludicrous. The gap was there so he was entitled to attempt the pass. I think he was being sympathetic toward Albon by blaming himself for the collision. He deserved second place and would have beaten Gasly to the line had he not suffered front wing damage.

Hardcore Hamilton supporter? The front wing damage was minimal against a Toro Rosso in fairness.

El_Duderino 09

chicorytip wrote: »

The penalty for Hamilton was ludicrous. The gap was there so he was entitled to attempt the pass. I think he was being sympathetic toward Albon by blaming himself for the collision. He deserved second place and would have beaten Gasly to the line had he not suffered front wing damage.

The apex is very late in that corner. And he had no chance of making the apex. So while the contact was late in the corner (which usually suggests 50:50) but he had no chance of making the apex so he was in the wrong.

It’s a marginal one so I wouldn’t mind whether there was a penalty or not.

Cork Trucker

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

The apex is very late in that corner. And he had no chance of making the apex. So while the contact was late in the corner (which usually suggests 50:50) but he had no chance of making the apex so he was in the wrong.

It’s a marginal one so I wouldn’t mind whether there was a penalty or not.

He had a small lock up going into the corner as well just prior to the collision

Anjobe

Cork Trucker wrote: »

He had a small lock up going into the corner as well just prior to the collision

Probably the significant factor - the fact that he wasn't completely in control caused the collision.

Frank Bullitt

Was this the first Honda engined 1-2 since Spa 1998?

Cork Trucker

Gintonious wrote: »

Was this the first Honda engined 1-2 since Spa 1998?

That was Mugen Honda in 1998, the last actual Honda 1-2 was Berger & Senna in Suzuka 1991, Senna moved the over under the instruction of Ron Dennis I think

Harika

Cork Trucker wrote: »

That was Mugen Honda in 1998, the last actual Honda 1-2 was Berger & Senna in Suzuka 1991, Senna moved the over under the instruction of Ron Dennis I think

Senna was giving it to Gerhard as Gerhard braked at the start of the race for him.

pjohnson

pjohnson wrote: »

Sainz isnt that far away from beating it. Only 77 races behind Hulk and he is only 25 years old. Unless McLaren can get up onto the podium from 2021 I cant see Sainz getting to a bigger team.

Posts that aged absolutely terribly

Think thats me securing the "worst post/prediction in the whole thread" title :pac:


This is probably one of my favourite photos of the year.

Frank Bullitt

Honda confirmed another year in the sport.

AMKC

Gintonious wrote: »

Honda confirmed another year in the sport.

Good news but only for another year? Hopefully they will be there for many years to come.

mickdw

Another year.
Sure they are only up to speed now but of course they have history of pulling out of f1 when it's about to pay off.

El_Duderino 09

AMKC wrote: »

Good news but only for another year? Hopefully they will be there for many years to come.

They’re negotiating terms so pulling out is their best negotiating weapon. So we’ll never know if they’re serious or just negotiating.

Joe Saward was talking about it this week. Same with the Renault team. Because they’re not an established team their best weapon is their withdrawal. So we the viewers will never know if they’re serious or just threatening.

Cork Trucker

No surprise that Latifi has landed the Williams drive for 2020.

https://www.skysports.com/f1/news/12476/11872171/williams-f1-nicholas-latifi-to-replace-robert-kubica-for-2020

El_Duderino 09

Probably fair enough. Latifi is 24 so not a child prodigy but being in contention for the f2 title suggests he's on a good run of form.

Pity for hulk and kubica but probably fair enough. Hulk had had an alright season - but alright is about the peak of his career. He's more or less matched DRic this year so not a good year for him to be at hulk's league. I wonder whether he'll be able to get back to good form.

pjohnson

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Probably fair enough. Latifi is 24 so not a child prodigy but being in contention for the f2 title suggests he's on a good run of form.

Pity for hulk and kubica but probably fair enough. Hulk had had an alright season - but alright is about the peak of his career. He's more or less matched DRic this year so not a good year for him to be at hulk's league. I wonder whether he'll be able to get back to good form.

After 4 years he is runner up. And the F2 field is regarded as being weaker this year.

Be amazed if he does better than Kubica.

El_Duderino 09

pjohnson wrote: »

After 4 years he is runner up. And the F2 field is regarded as being weaker this year.

Be amazed if he does better than Kubica.

I'd me amazed if he doesn't do better than kubica. The man has a physical disability. We don't even know if Russell is good yet because we only have Kubica to compare him to.

In hindsight, Kubica coming back was crazy. In his absence from the sport his legend grew. In truth we have lost perspective on how good he ever was because his talent was exaggerated beyond recognition when he was gone from the sport.

I'd eat my hat if latifi isn't better than kubica.

pjohnson

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

I'd me amazed if he doesn't do better than kubica. The man has a physical disability. We don't even know if Russell is good yet because we only have Kubica to compare him to.

In hindsight, Kubica coming back was crazy. In his absence from the sport his legend grew. In truth we have lost perspective on how good he ever was because his talent was exaggerated beyond recognition when he was gone from the sport.

I'd eat my hat if latifi isn't better than kubica.

Latifi wasnt a patch on Russell last time they competed in the same level. Russell won F2 on the 1st attempt. Latifi finally made runner up (although he could loose that depending on last F2 race) at the 4th attempt. His money kept him in F2.


I know some have decided Kubica is the worst F1 driver ever in history from before he ever got in the Williams so of course Latifi will be called a huge step up no matter what. Doubt he will be a patch on Russell.

Cork Trucker

pjohnson wrote: »

Latifi wasnt a patch on Russell last time they competed in the same level. Russell won F2 on the 1st attempt. Latifi finally made runner up (although he could loose that depending on last F2 race) at the 4th attempt.


I know some have decided Kubica is the worst F1 driver ever in history from before he ever got in the Williams so of course Latifi will be called a huge step up no matter what. Doubt he will be a patch on Russell.

Doesn’t Alonso hold the record for most consecutive races out qualifying a team mate? Needless to say I can see Russell breaking it next year with Latifi. Also is it a record for Russell to do same in a debut F1 season? The status quo is highly unlikely to change this weekend

pjohnson

Cork Trucker wrote: »

Doesn’t Alonso hold the record for most consecutive races out qualifying a team mate? Needless to say I can see Russell breaking it next year with Latifi. Also is it a record for Russell to do same in a debut F1 season? The status quo is highly unlikely to change this weekend

He'll go very close.

Also checked again. In 4 years Latifi has 6 F2 wins.....in his sole F2 season Russell won 7 races.

They are extremely far apart.

El_Duderino 09

pjohnson wrote: »

Latifi wasnt a patch on Russell last time they competed in the same level. Russell won F2 on the 1st attempt. Latifi finally made runner up (although he could loose that depending on last F2 race) at the 4th attempt. His money kept him in F2.


I know some have decided Kubica is the worst F1 driver ever in history from before he ever got in the Williams so of course Latifi will be called a huge step up no matter what. Doubt he will be a patch on Russell.

Depends. If he's within half a second of Russell, he'll be both a step up bit could still be a complete failure.

Kubica is without doubt one of the furthest off the pace of the last decade. There were some Exclusively pay drivers who were bad. But kubica is a pay driver now too.

skipper_G

I think people don't appreciate how good Russell is because he's been in a terrible car, he's been very far ahead of Kubica. Latifi will almost certainly be an improvement on Kubica but how much of an improvement is an unknown. The bigger unknown is if Williams can remember how to build a racing car again.

pjohnson

skipper_G wrote: »

I think people don't appreciate how good Russell is because he's been in a terrible car, he's been very far ahead of Kubica. Latifi will almost certainly be an improvement on Kubica but how much of an improvement is an unknown. The bigger unknown is if Williams can remember how to build a racing car again.

Russell has been very badly underappreciated this year.

H3llR4iser

Russell will most likely end in a Mercedes, maybe as early as 2021...really depends on what Vettel and Hamilton decide to do, but George is Merc's equivalent of Leclerc...

El_Duderino 09

pjohnson wrote: »

Russell has been very badly underappreciated this year.

It's his first year in f1 with an old driver with a physical disability as a teammate (who he is beating handily in almost every single quali and race) There's no telling how good he actually is yet. He could be a superstar, could be a Hulk type journeyman.

pjohnson

Vettel has just had his third child and is skipping the press conferences today, Bottas has to take a grid penalty due to his Brazil engine expiring. Bottas has also announced on twitter he is getting a divorce.

ELM327

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Depends. If he's within half a second of Russell, he'll be both a step up bit could still be a complete failure.

Kubica is without doubt one of the furthest off the pace of the last decade. There were some Exclusively pay drivers who were bad. But kubica is a pay driver now too.

It's unfortunate because before the accident he had a lot of potential (even mooted with a move to ferrari).


He's done well to get back to the grid but I agree he's off the pace and even in a nothing car like the williams this year, which is often statistically worse than the hrt/marussias etc were, it's not good enough.

El_Duderino 09

pjohnson wrote: »

Vettel has just had his third child and is skipping the press conferences today, Bottas has to take a grid penalty due to his Brazil engine expiring. Bottas has also announced on twitter he is getting a divorce.

Ah I'm sorry to hear that about Bottas. Seems like a private guy so I imagine he won't enjoy being asked about that by journalists, 20 times a day.

Now that you've told me I'll be sure not to click on any stories about it.

El_Duderino 09

ELM327 wrote: »

It's unfortunate because before the accident he had a lot of potential (even mooted with a move to ferrari).


He's done well to get back to the grid but I agree he's off the pace and even in a nothing car like the williams this year, which is often statistically worse than the hrt/marussias etc were, it's not good enough.

He was linked with ferrari and had potential. So were hulk and grosjean linked with ferrari moves.

I accept he might have had great potential. But as you said, he's not on the pace now and that'd what matters now.

pjohnson

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Ah I'm sorry to hear that about Bottas. Seems like a private guy so I imagine he won't enjoy being asked about that by journalists, 20 times a day.

Now that you've told me I'll be sure not to click on any stories about it.

It apparently leaked in Finnish press so he put it on twitter confirming the divorce and that that was all he was saying.

PopePalpatine

Well, I guess I'll be waiting for C4's highlights this weekend.

H3llR4iser

oooh, this might start shedding a bit of light about why Ferrari suddenly started facing accusations of various sorts lately:

https://www.planetf1.com/news/mercedes-unhappy-with-ferrari-for-not-blocking-2021-rules/?utm_source=vuukle&utm_medium=talk_of_town

AMKC

PopePalpatine wrote: »

Well, I guess I'll be waiting for C4's highlights this weekend.

Me too. Maybe we could start a C4 highlights thread :rolleyes:

Sad to hear about Bottas and his marriage but its just a fact of life. I have seen it happen to lots of people I know some family some not. I attended a wedding there a couple of months ago and they had only known each other for two years. I really would not optimistic about it lasting 10 years but then what would I know.I just think it takes at least four to five years with someone before even thinking about getting hitched.

AMKC

H3llR4iser wrote: »

oooh, this might start shedding a bit of light about why Ferrari suddenly started facing accusations of various sorts lately:

https://www.planetf1.com/news/mercedes-unhappy-with-ferrari-for-not-blocking-2021-rules/?utm_source=vuukle&utm_medium=talk_of_town

Oh that's very interesting alright. I actually laughed with delight when I seen the headline.

H3llR4iser

AMKC wrote: »

Oh that's very interesting alright. I actually laughed with delight when I seen the headline.

It's very funny because Red Bull and Mercedes have been the most vocal against Ferrari's veto power in the past, but now they basically hope for them to do their bidding.

It's like that one kid that went around p1ssing people off in school because his best mate was a big guy. Then one day, the big guy is out sick...

El_Duderino 09

Anything that Mercedes doesn't want is probably good from the perspective of breaking their stranglehold on the sport.

The ferrari veto is the biggest load of bullshyte in any sport I can think of. Giving the biggest, wealthiest team the power to make the rules. Imagine man utd making the rules for the Premiership.

It just serves to remind you that f1 is a balance of sport, business and entertainment. The ferrari veto is a big weighting in favour of business and entertainment and a slap in the face to sport.

H3llR4iser

The Ferrari veto is an odd thing indeed; When it came into fruition in 1980, with the first "Concorde Agreement", it had some sense - most of the F1 teams "lived" in a relatively small area in England; Enzo Ferrari himself was already 82 years old, still very much heading the company but unable to travel (the meeting for the Concorde Agreement was actually held in Maranello for this very reason).

Ferrari made the point that the English teams could theoretically agree new rules amongst themselves in England and present them as a done deal, as they'd have the votes to pass whatever they agreed on. The "veto power" was granted in order to avoid such scenario. It created an weird situation where it is entirely possible for Ferrari to block any rule changes, but impossible for them to effectively pass any (theoretically, in a wall-against-wall scenario, Ferrari would constantly veto everything, while other teams would not vote whatever Ferrari proposed).
Somehow, it stuck all the way to 2019 (I believe knowledge of such power wasn't public domain until the whole Concord Agreement was leaked to the press in 1997). It is undeniable by anybody who's ever attended a Grand Prix in person that Ferrari still hold a huge bargaining power - anywhere you go, at least 50% of the crowds are wearing red or waving flags with the prancing horse.

What's more interesting is that even with such power, Ferrari aren't constantly dominating. Sure enough, there has been a time, specifically between 1993 and 1996, where the rulebook was progressively rewritten with the explicit goal of allowing them back to the front (starting with refueling in 1994 to help the V12), but still...they go for long stints without success. It's now been 12 years without a WDC, the second longest after the 21 years drought between 1979-2000. Actually, since having "veto" in the 1981 season, it took Ferrari 19 full season to clinch their first "double" - WDC and WCC.

If they were effectively "making the rules", this wouldn't really happen; Actually, the current rules were pretty much tailor-made to bring Mercedes into the utter dominance we've been seeing. Either Ferrari don't use their veto powers as much as people think they do, or they're so clueless they can't even figure out the rules they wanted.

El_Duderino 09

H3llR4iser wrote: »

If they were effectively "making the rules", this wouldn't really happen; Actually, the current rules were pretty much tailor-made to bring Mercedes into the utter dominance we've been seeing. Either Ferrari don't use their veto powers as much as people think they do, or they're so clueless they can't even figure out the rules they wanted.

That's a really interesting history of the Ferrari veto. But the last paragraph ignores the fact that ferrari are probably the worst value for money team on the grid. Saying they don't win so they obviously don't make the rules is like saying they don't always win so they must not have the biggest budget.

Ferrari are without doubt the best team at ballsing up the sweet little deals they get. I mean, the Ferrari Road cars are synonymous with bring unreliable and expensive to maintain. They still manage to carry on even though they make a poor product and have an incredible reputation so it balances out. A bit like the F1 outfit. They have all the advantages of biggest fan Base, biggest revenue and more influence on the rules than any other team. But still they're not the best.

muckwarrior

I notice that Kubica often matches or even beats Russell in FP1, but then Russell pulls ahead as the weekend goes on. I wonder is this a sign that Kubica's driving instincts are still superior but it's just his phyiscal disability that stops him reaching the limit. I.e. he can get straight in the car and go fast, or get the setup right very quickly, but then as more strength is required to get the last few percent out of the car he just doesn't have it?

El_Duderino 09

muckwarrior wrote: »

I notice that Kubica often matches or even beats Russell in FP1, but then Russell pulls ahead as the weekend goes on. I wonder is this a sign that Kubica's driving instincts are still superior but it's just his phyiscal disability that stops him reaching the limit. I.e. he can get straight in the car and go fast, or get the setup right very quickly, but then as more strength is required to get the last few percent out of the car he just doesn't have it?

So he is about as good as a rookie at setting up the car and it's Al downhill from there.

Sometimes the harder people try to make something sound good, the more obvious it becomes that you have to try really hard to make it look good.

Right now Russell is just shy of half a second ahead of kubica which would be about normal for quali and the race. We'll see how fp1 finishes.

Update: Russell put in a fast lap to go 1.2s ahead of kubica.

Kubica improves to 0.9 slower than Russell

They were both on soft until now.
Half an hour to go and Russell switching to hards, kubica to mediums so that's likely it.

I'm not seeing the legendary setup ability or the "hop in the car and go fast straight away" ability either. But only looking at the reality so I'm probably not seeing what others are seeing.

pjohnson

Imagine how quite the 2020 will thread be without the updates of "Kubica is the worst ever ok"

That "discussion" was pointless after about 6 races