Formula 1 2019 - General Discussion Thread

muckwarrior

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

So he is about as good as a rookie at setting up the car and it's Al downhill from there.

Sometimes the harder people try to make something sound good, the more obvious it becomes that you have to try really hard to make it look good.

Right now Russell is just shy of half a second ahead of kubica which would be about normal for quali and the race. We'll see how fp1 finishes.

Update: Russell put in a fast lap to go 1.2s ahead of kubica.

Kubica improves to 0.9 slower than Russell

They were both on soft until now.
Half an hour to go and Russell switching to hards, kubica to mediums so that's likely it.

I'm not seeing the legendary setup ability or the "hop in the car and go fast straight away" ability either. But only looking at the reality so prompt seeing what others are seeing.

That's FP2. Kubica finished a half second ahead of Russell in FP1.

mickdw

In the races, a lot of the time kubica appears to be ahead to about half distance and then the gap closes up, Russell overtakes and finishes half a lap ahead.
Not much info on the tv feed and I don't use timing apps or anything like that but that is what it seems like.
I'd like to know more detail.

H3llR4iser

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

That's a really interesting history of the Ferrari veto. But the last paragraph ignores the fact that ferrari are probably the worst value for money team on the grid. Saying they don't win so they obviously don't make the rules is like saying they don't always win so they must not have the biggest budget.

Ferrari are without doubt the best team at ballsing up the sweet little deals they get. I mean, the Ferrari Road cars are synonymous with bring unreliable and expensive to maintain. They still manage to carry on even though they make a poor product and have an incredible reputation so it balances out. A bit like the F1 outfit. They have all the advantages of biggest fan Base, biggest revenue and more influence on the rules than any other team. But still they're not the best.

Yeah, they've demonstrated they're able to pretty much throw away any advantage they might have, no doubt about that - and I'll go further, this seems to happen whenever they have Italian management. With Todt/Brawn in charge, Ferrari was a total killing machine.

As for the road products, that's quite an outdated view not only about Ferrari but the whole FCA stable (soon to become FCPSA or whatever, it's gonna be a disater anyway).

Jordan 199

If anyone is interested in subscribing to Autosport Plus, the annual subscription is down to €24.98 at the moment.

El_Duderino 09

mickdw wrote: »

In the races, a lot of the time kubica appears to be ahead to about half distance and then the gap closes up, Russell overtakes and finishes half a lap ahead.
Not much info on the tv feed and I don't use timing apps or anything like that but that is what it seems like.
I'd like to know more detail.

I followed them in Brazil he got ahead at the start I think. Russell was all over him but couldn't find a way past even at the pitstop. Then he did get past but didn't open a huge gap, 3-4 seconds. Then the safety cars happened and somehow kubica didn't unlap himself so they ended up a lap apart. He might have pitted for fresh tyres and missed the opportunity to unlap.

El_Duderino 09

muckwarrior wrote: »

That's FP2. Kubica finished a half second ahead of Russell in FP1.

Fair one.

Cork Trucker

muckwarrior wrote: »

That's FP2. Kubica finished a half second ahead of Russell in FP1.

It would make you question what is going on in the team if Kubica can finish half a second ahead in FP1 & 0.9 behind in FP2, it wasn't the first time this season it happened either.

Separately, it appears Kubica has confirmed this is his final ever F1 race. Regardless of what job people think he may have done this year, for someone with a permanent physical disability what he achieved was remarkable, yes he might not have been upto the standards of F1, but to drive an F1 car at all in itself is something else considering the limitations.

skipper_G

It's free practice, it means nothing. The only stat that matters is Russell on average is 6 tenths quicker in qualy and has hammered him. Credit to Kubica for getting back into an F1 car absolutely, he deserves credit and respect for that achievement. But I wish people would stop being delusional and coming up with nonsense explanations why he's not quick enough

pjohnson

Kubica has said before that the car acts differently between sessions. Russell has also said the car is prone to sudden changes in behaviour between sessions and even during races between laps. The Williams car is a total disaster in itself but also appears to have Haas like issues regarding tyres and heating them.



In 2020 news -
Williams have also announced that they will be running an Israeli test driver in the Abu Dhabi test. No its not actually Chanoch himself buying another F1 seat but rather his son Roy Nissany is joining them. Will he be as legendary as his father?

skipper_G

pjohnson wrote: »

Kubica has said before that the car acts differently between sessions. Russell has also said the car is prone to sudden changes in behaviour between sessions and even during races between laps. The Williams car is a total disaster in itself but also appears to have Haas like issues regarding tyres and heating them.



In 2020 news -
Williams have also announced that they will be running an Israeli test driver in the Abu Dhabi test. No its not actually Chanoch himself buying another F1 seat but rather his son Roy Nissany is joining them. Will he be as legendary as his father?

Roy Nissany

Is this the F1 team equivalent of taking the cushions off the couch looking for loose change?

pjohnson

skipper_G wrote: »

Roy Nissany

Is this the F1 team equivalent of taking the cushions off the couch looking for loose change?

Maybe the seat was on offer for Black Friday?

donspeekinglesh

H3llR4iser wrote: »

I believe knowledge of such power wasn't public domain until the whole Concord Agreement was leaked to the press in 1997

It was the 1997 agreement, but it wasn't leaked until 2005, after an updated version had been agreed. Was published by the much missed racefax.com - I still have my copy in my email.

Inviere

skipper_G wrote: »

It's free practice, it means nothing. The only stat that matters is Russell on average is 6 tenths quicker in qualy and has hammered him. Credit to Kubica for getting back into an F1 car absolutely, he deserves credit and respect for that achievement. But I wish people would stop being delusional and coming up with nonsense explanations why he's not quick enough

I see it as a combination of three things really. Robert had a bit of hype behind him, particularly after the Williams testing results:

"He shared the new FW41 with Sirotkin on the second day of the first pre-season test at Barcelona, before splitting duties with Stroll on day three of the second week. He ended both of those days as the fastest Williams, leading Sirotkin by three tenths and Stroll by six, and held the best FW41 lap time of the test until Sirotkin narrowly surpassed it on the final day." - Source

...but with the level of injuries he sustained, combined with just how long he was out of an F1 seat, reality greatly failed to meet expectations.

Secondly, I think Russell is just a LOT quicker than people gave him credit for, particularly in his rookie year. The kid has bags of talent, and definitely made Robert's job a lot harder.

Finally, not that I blame Williams, but I feel both drivers being on record talking about how unpredictable the car is, not only from race to race, but from session to session, has also added to Robert's woes. Sure, Russell clearly adapted faster/better than Robert did, but with all of Robert's difficulties, F1 rust, physical impairments, the last thing he needed was a car that seemed to be held together with warm blu-tac.

I think it's right for him to leave, he has no future in F1, and shouldn't be propping up the grid every single race, so it's time to look onwards for him. It will be a disappointing return for him no doubt, but depending on how you look at it, it's also a remarkable achievement for him too.

chicorytip

Cork Trucker wrote: »

It would make you question what is going on in the team if Kubica can finish half a second ahead in FP1 & 0.9 behind in FP2, it wasn't the first time this season it happened either.

Separately, it appears Kubica has confirmed this is his final ever F1 race. Regardless of what job people think he may have done this year, for someone with a permanent physical disability what he achieved was remarkable, yes he might not have been upto the standards of F1, but to drive an F1 car at all in itself is something else considering the limitations.

That's a fair comment, I think. I don't know what he was expected to achieve other than not be cut embarrassingly adrift at the back of the field. His race performances - as opposed to qualifying - have not been bad. He has achieved something by proving he still has the ability to race in close wheel to wheel combat, at least.

El_Duderino 09

chicorytip wrote: »

That's a fair comment, I think. I don't know what he was expected to achieve other than not be cut embarrassingly adrift at the back of the field. His race performances - as opposed to qualifying - have not been bad. He has achieved something by proving he still has the ability to race in close wheel to wheel combat, at least.

I really don't think his races have been any better. Generally he's about 0.4 of a second slower than Russell per race lap.

Sometime she overtakes Russell at the start and Russell sits right behind and can't get past him for most of the race. That makes his race pace appear respectable. But if Russell is ahead at the start he tends to stream away and finish a good distance ahead.

You said he was only expected to not embarrass himself. That's just not true. Unless he's nothing but a pay driver. He was supposedly faster than other drivers who tested against him. He was supposedly coming back to show his speed and Compete for a seat next year in a better team.

Nobody would have hired him if they knew how slow he is - unless he's just a pay driver.

pjohnson

Both Haas drivers Grosjean and Magnussen have ended the season with the same number of points as is their racing number 8 & 20.

Dont be at yourself

Bit of a weird season overall. Both championships put to bed very early, and yet we had some great wheel-to-wheel racing amongst the top 3 teams. Gotta look back at the likes of Bahrain, Baku, Monaco and wonder what might have been had Ferrari taken results there.

Got to give credit to Hamilton and to Mercedes -- just on another level in terms of extracting the maximum from any situation. Their only real ****-up was Hockenheim. I do wonder if it weren't for Giovinazzi's safety car in Silverstone, would Bottas have taken the win and pushed Hamilton further.

Cork Trucker

New thread:

https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=111907912#post111907912

H3llR4iser

Dont be at yourself wrote: »

Bit of a weird season overall. Both championships put to bed very early, and yet we had some great wheel-to-wheel racing amongst the top 3 teams. Gotta look back at the likes of Bahrain, Baku, Monaco and wonder what might have been had Ferrari taken results there.

They'll never admit it, but Mercedes clearly went into "energy saving mode" after the summer break given their advantage was impossible for Ferrari and Red Bull to recover. All they needed was to finish every race in the top 6, which was absolutely a given considering the field.



Being the killing machine of a team they are, they even managed to pick up Ferrari's and Max's mess in Russia, Japan and Mexico to 3 literally gifted wins. One can't help but think Mercedes, with their strategic and organizational tidiness, would be able to lift both championships easily even if they didn't have a superior car.



All of which is worrisome for the next season - it's doubtless Mercedes had already shifted much of the focus on next year's design...

recyclebin

H3llR4iser wrote: »

They'll never admit it, but Mercedes clearly went into "energy saving mode" after the summer break given their advantage was impossible for Ferrari and Red Bull to recover. All they needed was to finish every race in the top 6, which was absolutely a given considering the field.



Being the killing machine of a team they are, they even managed to pick up Ferrari's and Max's mess in Russia, Japan and Mexico to 3 literally gifted wins. One can't help but think Mercedes, with their strategic and organizational tidiness, would be able to lift both championships easily even if they didn't have a superior car.



All of which is worrisome for the next season - it's doubtless Mercedes had already shifted much of the focus on next year's design...

This is worrying alright! The only saving grace is the 2021 rule changes so teams will be splitting resources. That could be a good thing or a bad thing for 2020 though. Ferrari and Red Bull might just right off 2020 very early on in season.

AMKC

recyclebin wrote: »

This is worrying alright! The only saving grace is the 2021 rule changes so teams will be splitting resources. That could be a good thing or a bad thing for 2020 though. Ferrari and Red Bull might just right off 2020 very early on in season.

I don't think Ferrari or Red Bull will right off 2020 very early in the season as they have the resources to do it and be doing the design for the car the next season as well and it would not look good to there fans or shareholders if they were to right it off without a good fight. They also need to keep there drivers motivated. The smaller teams like Racing Point, Haas and Alfa I could see writing the whole season off and just working on the car for 2020 do. I am not sure what Williams will do but hope they can do something to make some progress next year. It is hardly worth designing a whole new car for one year do unless you are a big team but the dog of a car they had this year should be scraped.

H3llR4iser

I'd be pretty positive most of next season chassis designs will be evolutions of this years; In all fairness, no team except Williams had a "total dog" that needs to be redesigned from scratch. On a purely theoretical level, that should mean a tighter field due to the law of dimishing returns - Mercedes are already pretty much at peak performance, Ferrari and RB can improve a bit, but improvements from say Toro Rosso, Renault or Alfa Romeo will mean more gains on their part.

This, theoretically. Chances are, it'll be another season with very well defined pecking orders, where even if there's only 1 second between pole position and the 10th place on the grid, the guy in 3rd, 0.200 off the pole, can NEVER close off that gap. Which is the problem of modern F1 - and one that can't really be resolved unless we ban simulators and computers, which isn't feasible in the slightest...

Harika

AMKC

Tamara Ecclestone's London home was robbed. She is the daughter of former F1 boss Bernie Ecclestone. Somewhere in the region of 50million pounds worth of gems were stolen. Fortunatly she and her husband were away when it happened. Never a nice thing no matter who you are to have your ouse broken into.

Inviere

AMKC wrote: »

Tamara Ecclestone's London home was robbed. She is the daughter of former F1 boss Bernie Ecclestone. Somewhere in the region of 50million pounds worth of gems were stolen. Fortunatly she and her husband were away when it happened. Never a nice thing no matter who you are to have your ouse broken into.

Was it Jenson who was 'gassed unconscious' while his place was robbed a few years back? That's scary ****...

PukkaStukka

Rumour mill in festive overdrive here but two stinkers in this:

Vettel on a performance ultimatum

Toto and Hamilton to Ferrari in 2021

https://www.essentiallysports.com/sebastian-vettel-has-five-races-to-save-his-f1-career-as-ferrari-boss-gives-ultimatum/

AMKC

Inviere wrote: »

Was it Jenson who was 'gassed unconscious' while his place was robbed a few years back? That's scary ****...

Yes thats right him and his girlfrind at the time.

dublinman1990

I only heard about Tamara Ecclestone's ordeal tonight. The men who did this crime deserve to get the gravest consequences possible at this time of the year which is spending Christmas behind a prison cell for a very long time. She was lucky not to confront these scumbags while she was away from her own home.

muckwarrior

Speaking of Ecclestones, yet more evidence of just how out of touch Bernie was with the digital age https://www.planetf1.com/news/hamilton-received-cease-and-desist-letters-from-ecclestone/

El_Duderino 09

muckwarrior wrote: »

Speaking of Ecclestones, yet more evidence of just how out of touch Bernie was with the digital age https://www.planetf1.com/news/hamilton-received-cease-and-desist-letters-from-ecclestone/

What a knob. The improvements in healthcare are great but there is a time for people to shuffle off when they can't keep up with reality. If he was a farmworker in China it would be fine, but he's a wealthy and powerful man who has influence over a world he hasn't a clue about. He's a second hand car sales man, with the soul and moral compass of a second hand car salesman, who got waaaaayyyyyyy too powerful.

In other news, It seems like the Hamilton and Wolff to Ferrari is a real possibility

H3llR4iser

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

In other news, It seems like the Hamilton and Wolff to Ferrari is a real possibility

This is a bit reminiscent of Ross Brawn (and Rory Byrne) moving to Ferrari when Schumacher moved. If anybody can right the ship, that's Toto. Hamilton on his own would be a bit of a disaster in Ferrari's environment, but with Wolff at the helm, it could work VERY well. As long as Lewis doesn't mind Leclerc potentially beating him quite often (Charles' only gonna get faster/better as experience builds up, Hamilton ain't gonna get younger, although he's only 34 in fairness).

Another thing: if Vettel moves to Mercedes, and the team remains at their current level of operational ruthlessness, be ready for Seb to make a lot of his critics swallow their words.

muckwarrior

H3llR4iser wrote: »

Another thing: if Vettel moves to Mercedes, and the team remains at their current level of operational ruthlessness, be ready for Seb to make a lot of his critics swallow their words.

Why would they swallow their words? Unless he beats Hamilton, Verstappen or Le Clerc in the the same car, then all that will prove is that Vettel can only win a championship with a superior car.

vectra

muckwarrior wrote: »

Why would they swallow their words? Unless he beats Hamilton, Verstappen or Le Clerc in the the same car, then all that will prove is that Vettel can only win a championship with a superior car.

Nonsense.
Sure didn't Schumacher do it in the Ferrari era
Vettel in the Red Bull era.
Hamilton in Merc era.

Are you saying none of those were championship winning cars without said drivers?

muckwarrior

vectra wrote: »

Are you saying none of those were championship winning cars without said drivers?

No, I'm saying that Sebastian winning the championship in a superior car proves nothing and won't make anyone "swallow their words".

H3llR4iser

muckwarrior wrote: »

No, I'm saying that Sebastian winning the championship in a superior car proves nothing and won't make anyone "swallow their words".

Still nonsense - Hamilton hasn't won a Championship by beating any supposedly "top drivers" in the same car, unless we finally get people to admit Rosberg was one hell of a driver that would've been a deserving multiple WDC hadn't he had the "luck" to get Lewis on his way.

Schumacher always was #1 by contract, his team mates chosen on purpose to avoid issues.

Verstappen wasn't really better than Ricciardo in the RB when Daniel's car didn't throw a conrod or some suspension bits, notwithstanding the absurdly clear preference Red Bull showed for the former.

It's really funny to see how the metrics shift around based on how liked a driver is or not. With the notable exception of Alain Prost in 1986 (mostly due to Williams' fragility and internal fighting), not one driver in the last 35 season won the title without driving the overall best car on the grid.

Let's face it - people, for whatever reason, hate Vettel just the same way they despised Rosberg. He could win a title in a Morris Marina beating the combined ghosts of Ayrton Senna and Tazio Nuvolari and people would still say "but but but..."

Cork Trucker

I think Hamilton feels morally obligated to go to Ferrari, it goes back to Senna, who in all likelihood would have finished his career with them, Ferrari did approach him or vice versa around 1994 but Alesi & Berger were under contract.

H3llR4iser

Cork Trucker wrote: »

I think Hamilton feels morally obligated to go to Ferrari, it goes back to Senna, who in all likelihood would have finished his career with them, Ferrari did approach him or vice versa around 1994 but Alesi & Berger were under contract.

I don't particularly like Lewis and especially his superstar shenanigans (on the driving, there's very very little to criticise especially after this season, he's become a smart driver on top of being bloody fast - Albon incident asaide, that happens), but I know Italian Ferrari fans will like him. They used to hate Schumacher too, to say.

It would be fitting, especially with Wolff joining as well. The only "unknown variable" would be Leclerc. If he turns out to be faster than Lewis (and with one more years experience and 12 years of advantage, chances are he will be), things can turn sour VERY quickly.

Cork Trucker

H3llR4iser wrote: »

I don't particularly like Lewis and especially his superstar shenanigans (on the driving, there's very very little to criticise especially after this season, he's become a smart driver on top of being bloody fast - Albon incident asaide, that happens), but I know Italian Ferrari fans will like him. They used to hate Schumacher too, to say.

It would be fitting, especially with Wolff joining as well. The only "unknown variable" would be Leclerc. If he turns out to be faster than Lewis (and with one more years experience and 12 years of advantage, chances are he will be), things can turn sour VERY quickly.

I never knew Schumacher was hated by the Tifosi. I could see Hamilton-LeClerc being a repeat of Hamilton-Alonso if it got sour, Vettel is done for now either way. I don't like Hamilton myself, never did, but the stats don't lie. As for the Albon incident, he put his hand up, but would he have done the same if that was a title deciding move.

Infoanon

News to me that the Tifosi hated Schumacher - in my experience the Tifosi will support who ever is driving the prancing horse and adore if that person is winning in their beloved scarlet Ferrari

H3llR4iser

Schumacher was public enemy #1 for Ferrari fans while he was at Benetton, folks...a lot of people were actually very upset when he was announced, especially as he replaced long time favourite Alesi.

Obviously, in a typical Italian fashion "all was forgiven" when he started winning championships.

mickdw

H3llR4iser wrote: »

Still nonsense - Hamilton hasn't won a Championship by beating any supposedly "top drivers" in the same car, unless we finally get people to admit Rosberg was one hell of a driver that would've been a deserving multiple WDC hadn't he had the "luck" to get Lewis on his way.

Schumacher always was #1 by contract, his team mates chosen on purpose to avoid issues.

Verstappen wasn't really better than Ricciardo in the RB when Daniel's car didn't throw a conrod or some suspension bits, notwithstanding the absurdly clear preference Red Bull showed for the former.

It's really funny to see how the metrics shift around based on how liked a driver is or not. With the notable exception of Alain Prost in 1986 (mostly due to Williams' fragility and internal fighting), not one driver in the last 35 season won the title without driving the overall best car on the grid.

Let's face it - people, for whatever reason, hate Vettel just the same way they despised Rosberg. He could win a title in a Morris Marina beating the combined ghosts of Ayrton Senna and Tazio Nuvolari and people would still say "but but but..."

There is an argument for kimi not being in best chassis in 2007. McLaren threw away drivers title.

Cork Trucker

mickdw wrote: »

There is an argument for kimi not being in best chassis in 2007. McLaren threw away drivers title.

And constructors!

H3llR4iser

mickdw wrote: »

There is an argument for kimi not being in best chassis in 2007. McLaren threw away drivers title.

mmm...hard to say, Ferrari had 9 wins out of 17 races that season (more than 50%), 9 pole positions and 12 fastest laps. If it wasn't the best chassis overall, it was at least joint best with McLaren. Prost in 1986 was pretty much a case of "how the hell did this happen?"

uchimata83

H3llR4iser wrote: »

mmm...hard to say, Ferrari had 9 wins out of 17 races that season (more than 50%), 9 pole positions and 12 fastest laps. If it wasn't the best chassis overall, it was at least joint best with McLaren. Prost in 1986 was pretty much a case of "how the hell did this happen?"

Hamilton was 17 points clear of Kimi with a possible 20 left. Should have wrapped it up in China only for binning it in the pit entry.
Ferrari that year were a really well run team, with both drivers at the top of their game but they certainly didn't have the best car.

flazio

By the end of 2009 there is no way that Brawn was still the best car on the grid.

Cork Trucker

flazio wrote: »

By the end of 2009 there is no way that Brawn was still the best car on the grid.

The double diffuser have them the early advantage they needed to build a sizeable lead before the others caught up. In the end Barrichello fell away to 3rd or 4th in the championship.

Inviere

flazio wrote: »

By the end of 2009 there is no way that Brawn was still the best car on the grid.

True, but as above, they were the best for a good chunk of the season which gave them a big points lead. Button was able to manage his lead enough to win the title.

Frank Bullitt

H3llR4iser wrote: »

Schumacher was public enemy #1 for Ferrari fans while he was at Benetton, folks...a lot of people were actually very upset when he was announced, especially as he replaced long time favourite Alesi.

Obviously, in a typical Italian fashion "all was forgiven" when he started winning championships.

The tifosi hate everyone that isn't in a Ferrari.

elperello

Inviere wrote: »

True, but as above, they were the best for a good chunk of the season which gave them a big points lead. Button was able to manage his lead enough to win the title.

Ten years ago now.
We will never see the likes again.

Infoanon

Inviere wrote: »

True, but as above, they were the best for a good chunk of the season which gave them a big points lead. Button was able to manage his lead enough to win the title.

Button proved himself a worthy champion competing with success against Hamilton at McLaren