I think the company is trying to make me quit my job

limnam

beauf wrote: »

Not everyone has the interest. So that rules out "anyone".

Of course


Anything with a level of difficulty is a lot more difficult if you're not interested in learning.


That doesn't mean your brain needs to be wired a specific way to be able to learn to code past having an interest in it..


If you've no interest well, it won't affect you one way or another.

beauf

It rules out an absolute of "everyone".

Similarly only a few is logically unlikely. Considering there are more complex occupations and more abstracted than programming.

bilbot79

Redundancy will not happen. You should resign as it's not working out. Better for your mental health.

limnam

beauf wrote: »

It rules out an absolute of "everyone".

Similarly only a few is logically unlikely. Considering there are more complex occupations and more abstracted than programming.

uh ok.


But I didn't say everyone could.

OMM 0000

limnam wrote: »

to claim only some people can code is utter nonsense. Sure there will only be a handful of linus/stallman's etc but with the right application and interest pretty much anyone can.

The real world disagrees with you.

rn

To go back to the original post. If you feel the company is backing you into a corner with no other option except to quit, this is constructive dismissal.

If they enter a formal arrangement where they are formally managing your work and outputs, eventually they will be entitled to let you go without any payment.

Few companies offer a payoff as they do not want to been as rewarding incompetence, so simply holding out for a pay out is unlikely to return a reward for you and cause you, your team and manager a lot of stress.

Is there an option to be mentored or switch role within development, as another poster has outlined? It's not unusual to require others help to get work done. Imposter syndrome is very real.

There's nothing wrong in asking for help from your team-mates, as long as the amount of time spent is reasonable.

Each one would surely have an hour per week spare to help/deal with questions from a junior. If you have 10 in your team, that's 10 hours of help you have each week.

If those can't spare the one hour per week, it's managment's fault for such a high work-load.

OMM 0000

OMM 0000 wrote: »

Just to add one more thing:

I've moved people into different roles before.

Example 1:

I had a programmer on one of my teams who just couldn't do a good job. He was smart, and he thought in a very unique way, but it took him forever to do anything and the quality was aways bad. I tried a buddy system, etc., but it didn't work. So I moved him into a QA role and he really thrived. There is a lack of very technical QA people, so he was invaluable. He was much happier in QA.

Example 2:

I had a girl on my team who was a terrible programmer. She didn't get it at all, and she wasn't making much progress. It was really bothering her. It was making her depressed. She just didn't have the brain for it and it was making her feel trapped. She was a lovely person and a good communicator, so I moved her into a product manager role. She was great. It made her happy. Total success.

So don't be afraid to move into a different role. Your development background will help you.

You sound like a really good boss. Common sense and people oriented.

Rikand

I wish I had had a boss like you when I was in the industry OMM. Unless you're a star performer or have an understanding manager, the software industry can become a cold and lonely place. I wasn't a star performer, but I did love my work when I had the freedom to do it. In hindsight a product owner or scrum master might have suited me better but I didn't see that side of things at the time

Sometimes the industry just isn't for you. I love programming but my experience saw a lot of backstabbing and internal politics that made me hate it. I had to get out and starting this coming year I will be a civil servant doing nothing to do with my degree.

I still do a little bit of coding at home in my spare time and I'm also taking my ISTQB in the hope that I'll be able to do something part time(20 hours a week) in the future along with my 9-5 but if you feel that its just not for you OP, there's no shame in holding the hands up and getting out.

I hope you talk to your manager and explain your situation and hopefully he's like OMM and finds somewhere else for you or can help you, but if not, don't be afraid to get out of dodge. There's nicer places and environments to work in

beauf

Civil service is as bad if not worse with internal politics. I think it mainly depends on the culture of the office you work in, be in private or public.

Often changing teams make a huge difference regardless were you work.

beauf

One trait I dislike in software development is Prima Donna developers, or project managers. I've seen similar in other professions also, its not just development.

They won't listen to any advice other than their own or like minded divas, they treat everyone else like mindless drones. As a result everyone else gets bored and demotivated, and drifts to other work. Its amazing how often you get someone under performing on one team, does great on another team. Even doing the same Job.

fordyjames

Don't really have enough information here but were you hired as a junior software developer doing the same work as intermediate or senior developers or something. Are you part of a graduate team there all working on the same stuff?

Some horrible responses from people here OP but yea, if your falling behind you probably need to start doing a few hours when you get home and on the weekend. A year is not long in software and your definitly not going to be any sort of an expert.

Is it basic stuff your getting caught out on and can under people with the same expierence as yourself do it?

Sephiroth_dude

OMM 0000 wrote: »

Could QA be a better role for you? QA automation is a very good job.

Software testing role?

OMM 0000

Sephiroth_dude wrote: »

Software testing role?

Yes, but writing software to test software.

For some weird reason, most people think manual testing is "easy" and can be done by anyone (completely wrong), yet they think automation is great, even though it's value is mostly political ("we have computers testing our software!").

Couple of things about it:

1. Hardly any people know how to do it, so you won't have a problem getting a job.

2. It pays well.

3. You're left alone.

4. It's basically a development job, so you can always move into a development role in the future.

Sephiroth_dude

OMM 0000 wrote: »

Yes, but writing software to test software.

For some weird reason, most people think manual testing is "easy" and can be done by anyone (completely wrong), yet they think automation is great, even though it's value is mostly political ("we have computers testing our software!").

.

I finished a 6 month course at the end of November and I'm looking for a role in testing, It was not easy, you have to be very meticulous in the tests you write, we didn't do any automation though which I was disappointed about,it was all manual testing, I can code though but very basic stuff.

Anyway Op definitely talk to your manager, nothing worse than being in job where you feel uneasy.

LuckyLloyd

OMM 0000 wrote: »

Yes, but writing software to test software.

For some weird reason, most people think manual testing is "easy" and can be done by anyone (completely wrong), yet they think automation is great, even though it's value is mostly political ("we have computers testing our software!").

Couple of things about it:

1. Hardly any people know how to do it, so you won't have a problem getting a job.

2. It pays well.

3. You're left alone.

4. It's basically a development job, so you can always move into a development role in the future.

Some great posts from yourself in this thread. I started as a manual QA Tester, eventually became a scrum master and now am a Senior Testing manager. There are many career paths for positive people who communicate well and - as you say - are willing to learn. I can't write a line of code, but I work very well with Development and technical people when necessary. They can't do it all themselves and there's always mutual respect there.

Unfortunately the OP hasn't returned, but your posts are definitely excellent advice imo.

ImARebel

OMM 0000 wrote: »

Just to add one more thing:

I've moved people into different roles before.

Example 1:

I had a programmer on one of my teams who just couldn't do a good job. He was smart, and he thought in a very unique way, but it took him forever to do anything and the quality was aways bad. I tried a buddy system, etc., but it didn't work. So I moved him into a QA role and he really thrived. There is a lack of very technical QA people, so he was invaluable. He was much happier in QA.

Example 2:

I had a girl on my team who was a terrible programmer. She didn't get it at all, and she wasn't making much progress. It was really bothering her. It was making her depressed. She just didn't have the brain for it and it was making her feel trapped. She was a lovely person and a good communicator, so I moved her into a product manager role. She was great. It made her happy. Total success.

So don't be afraid to move into a different role. Your development background will help you.

That says more about you than them in a way

Great management skills to see the benefit of a person in a different role

Most would have bashed those people to death until they left or had no confidence left in themselves

I applaud you, wish there were more managers out there like you!

(you don't have any vacancies do you, lol )

macman501

I had a look at your original post and took some time to think about it.

Let me start here - other people on this thread are speaking to their experiences. Many of these experiences seem very specific, across varying industries (many times in software roles) and different size companies.

Here are the points that jump out at me immediately:

* Weekly 1:1's are normal (people asking if that is normal don't seem to be clear on how this works), many times these will be rescheduled to bi-weekly but only for efficiencies sake. This has little or nothing to do with seniority or anything else.

* If your manager is not communicating with you in a clear and concise manner about how you are performing - there is the problem. A managers responsibility is to enable her/his engineers to contribute in impactful ways, grow their career and ultimately reap the benefits of that (for all three - manager, engineer, company).

* If you are clueless about your performance today. Does the company have a performance rating structure? What is the rating? (you don't have to share here). If there is a rating and it is not improving over time (e.g. 2 x 6-month cycles), has any improvement plan been put in place? If not, why not? One can only assume that they are happy with your performance.

* You say you are struggling - there should be a little bit of struggle. If you know how to develop, fix and architect everything off the top of your head, there probably isn't a real developer role there. However, if you are not employing techniques like using StackOverflow, Reddit or elsewhere then you need to start doing this. Furthermore, you need to understand that this is the norm. Also, you should be saying I don't know - a lot. Saying "I don't know" is not an indication of a bad developer as long as you are willing to learn (you are).

* Imposter syndrome - Developers can be smart people (in many different ways) when you live in a pool/bubble of people who ware doing great things, it is very common to downplay yourself. The danger here is that is a slippery slope - a vicious circle where it CAN actually make you less productive, gain clouded judgment and reduce concentration. Basically, it is a feedback loop: 1) I'm not good 2) Feel bad 3) Unmotivated / no concentration -> 1) I'm even worse 2) etc...

* Being underqualified - you talk about being underqualified because of lack of experience yet the questions that you ask are technical. At any fast moving company where people are using new technologies, shipping products every day and solving real-world problems, being "qualified" (by gaining a specific amount of time in said tech) is not a scalable solution. Developers learn on the job. Yes, you should understand CS and coding basics but you build on those on a daily basis.


Now, on to the points of other commenters:

OMM 0000 wrote: »

You have to have a certain type of brain to program. It's not the regular brain.

This is not true and it is highly likely that you are not qualified to assess that.
If you have a study that supports this - please post it. I live and breathe what I do but I don't jump to judgemental conclusions like this. For me, I can get fulfillment from the work I do and I don't feel threatened by other people joining the industry (in fact, I feel encouraged and see massive opportunities to support them).

OMM 0000 wrote: »

I agree.

Programming is not a normal job. Almost no one can do it, and to be good at it you have to genuinely enjoy it. It requires continuous lifelong learning.

Other roles such as product management, QA, support, & technical writing don't require this sort of dedication/passion.

I've been in management (CTO) for 10 years so this is something I know well.

The stuff you read on the BBC about how everyone should learn programming is nonsense. It's not going to work.

I know exactly how you came to that conclusion and if I had your experience, I would feel the same. The average company sees a developer as an expense and doesn't offer a structure that supports improvement or retention over the long term.

beauf wrote: »

In fairness a lot of people will have 20+ years of experience. I know people with 30+ yrs of experience, and they build bad systems repeatedly.

This!

In closing my suggestions are first, do not quit this role.
* Talk with your manager, ask them to give you a performance rating if they are not. Take control of the situations by getting feedback, ask for clear measurable goals e.g. - Okay, I will deliver X in Q1. In doing so under the following circumstances, would you see that as "exceeding your expectations"?

* Every 1:1 should be documented. You should have a word document that tracks each meeting (shared between both of you). Turn on track changes. At end of every 1:1, there should be a summary about what was discussed and a list of action items. The action items should include both you and your manager. It's not that you need your manager to actively do work, but you might way to suggest something like "Provide actional feedback on work/projects on a bi-weekly or monthly basis". Push your manager to do their job. Do this in a polite way.

* Asking about these topics online are really useful and people are helpful. You will get a diverse set of opinions that can be really helpful. If you are stressed and if you are having a hard time, the feedback will be hard to look at constructively in some ways.

* Take a holiday. Can you take some time off for a week or two to collect your thoughts? Do not mention specifics, treat this as a normal holiday if anyone asks.


I wish you all the best and feel free to reach out to me if there is anything that I can do to help.

OMM 0000

macman501 wrote: »

This is not true and it is highly likely that you are not qualified to assess that.
If you have a study that supports this - please post it.

Computer science has a 50% - 80% drop out rate.

That's the highest drop out rate of any college course.

If you'd studied computer science you would know it's because most of the people in the course cannot grasp programming.

macman501

OMM 0000 wrote: »

Computer science has a 50% - 80% drop out rate.

That's the highest drop out rate of any college course.

If you'd studied computer science you would know it's because most of the people in the course cannot grasp programming.

That doesn't really suffice as a study that proves it to be true. There are many moving parts.
CS is broad too - programming is only a small component.

Agree with pretty much everything OMM has posted.

I have that sort of "brain" for coding and mad interest in improving, even though I've never worked in the industry and only started it as a hobby five years ago.

While my coding isn't great, I have a now successful business selling my LMS I've been making in Drupal for four years to schools. Discussions with a government agency are ongoing. I have a huge discord bot written in nodejs used by thousands of people for tournaments and leaderboards. I'm in the middle of a big React course. I've ordered a Raspberry Pi cause I want to learn Python and it sounds like an interesting way to do it. I can run my own DigitalOcean server with load balancing, master slave DBs, reverse proxying etc.

And I did pretty much all that with stackoverflow. Never had a single person to ask in all those hundreds of thousands of lines of code.

Again, it's not that I'm even that good, and I'm embarrassed of my code. But I know how to get what I want done every single time. 80% on every project means you just don't have that.

OMM 0000

macman501 wrote: »

That doesn't really suffice as a study that proves it to be true. There are many moving parts.
CS is broad too - programming is only a small component.

How can you pass your exams if you cannot program?

Pelvis

OMM 0000 wrote: »

How can you pass your exams if you cannot program?

As a soon to be grad, 99% of exam content did not involve programming.

OMM 0000

Pelvis wrote: »

As a soon to be grad, 99% of exam content did not involve programming.

We're talking about computer science.

There is no way a computer science degree's exams is only 1% programming.

Are you doing an Arts degree or something like that?

Pelvis

OMM 0000 wrote: »

We're talking about computer science.

There is no way a computer science degree's exams is only 1% programming.

Are you doing an Arts degree or something like that?

B.Sc.

Continuous Assessments involved programming, exams were more theoretical.

OMM 0000

Pelvis wrote: »

B.Sc.

Continuous Assessments involved programming, exams were more theoretical.

A B.Sc could mean biology though.

But I'll assume you're doing a computer science degree.

Perhaps they're minimising programming to reduce the drop out rate.

I stand by my experience. Most people can't program. And there's nothing wrong with that, it's just the way it is.

As a society we'd be much better off if we accepted uncomfortable truths. It would help us better tackle them.

I don't think almost removing programming from a computer science degree is the solution.

macman501

OMM 0000 wrote: »

How can you pass your exams if you cannot program?

If they are giving exams in programming, they are doing it wrong.

Zardoz

OMM 0000 wrote: »

Computer science has a 50% - 80% drop out rate.

That's the highest drop out rate of any college course.

If you'd studied computer science you would know it's because most of the people in the course cannot grasp programming.

It's more complicated than that.
Alot of people were and still are lured into computer science by government and media propaganda.
They are told its a boom area and there are lots of jobs in it so they do it, despite the fact that they are not suited to it.

I agree with you that programming is a difficult skill.

The teaching standards in the colleges and the way programming is taught in Ireland is pretty terrible, at least it was in my time in college.

Every teenager thinking about it should spend a few months on freecodecamp. The dropout rate would drop.

OMM 0000

macman501 wrote: »

If they are giving exams in programming, they are doing it wrong.

Computer science degrees have programming and programming related exams.

They also have programming projects.

If you cannot program, you will fail these. And then fail the course.

By all means go ahead and change the way computer science degrees throughout the world are examined.