Gender equality in exam question

PhoenixParker

CinemaGuy45 wrote: »

The student suffered for giving an honest answer but he was not brutally honest.:D

The student suffered because they stated a fact when they were asked to give an opinion and to explain that opinion.

You can cast them as a sensitive snowflake soul and the poor victimized party all you like, but reading the question asked is step 1 in passing any exam.

He could have linked his opinion and explanation to Nazi writings on male superiority and achieved full marks, but never mind when there’s a victims pedestal to climb on.

looksee

Zenify wrote: »

There's a question in a recent C.S.P.E. exam which starts of stating that Male soccer players get paid more than female soccer players. The question then asks what is your opinion? Explain your point of view.

A student answered it by saying:

Male soccer has a bigger audience of both Males and females and can therefore afford to pay more from advertising revenue.

It's a 3 mark question. How many Mark's would you give the student? I'm not the teacher btw, I just found it very interesting.

The question can be phrased 'What is your opinion of the fact that male soccer players get paid more than female soccer players, and explain your point of view'.

It is not asking why males get paid more, or whether this is a fact (it has already been stated that it is), though both these points could come into a well argued answer. It is looking for an opinion.

The student's answer was not an opinion, it was another statement of fact. Again, this could be incorporated into a well argued answer, but as a statement it is not answering any part of the question. One mark sounds about right.

In fairness to students it is not a particularly well phrased question and is too open to misinterpretation. If it had asked 'is it fair' or 'is it justifiable' that men get paid more then it would have been possible to offer opinions and points of view.

meeeeh

CinemaGuy45 wrote: »

Do you sit it again?

I'm sure there is a great pun somewhere there but I can't find it.

newmember2

I haven't read any of this thread but I'm absolutely horrified :pac:

Raheem Euro

We've gone from outline the steps Otto Von Bismarck took to create a Prussian dominated, unified Germany to do you like his coat?

CinemaGuy45

Raheem Euro wrote: »

We've gone from outline the steps Otto Von Bismarck took to create a Prussian dominated, unified Germany to do you like his coat?

Hard not to he was one snappy dresser.:D

newmember2

Raheem Euro wrote: »

We've gone from outline the steps Otto Von Bismarck took to create a Prussian dominated, unified Germany to do you like his coat?

The question is, why wasn't he a woman...discuss.

Raheem Euro

CinemaGuy45 wrote: »

Hard not to he was one snappy dresser.:D

His tassels work so well with the moustache

Edit: and the eyebrows

astrofool

90% of football supporters are male, if women's sports could get the same numbers in female supporters, they would actually earn more than the men, as females are worth a lot more than males as the targets of advertisements. The reason for the wage inequality is, literally, women not supporting other women.

Paddy_Irishman

mustang shelly wrote: »

Wouldn't 3 marks require three different points/examples?

You only gave one point hence the one mark.

That was my thought on it. The question makes a statement, asks your opinion and then asks you to support that opinion.

They just gave their opinion which is irrelevant if it's factual or not. It's an opinion. One mark.

Maybe the examiner is looking to see if the person will acknowledge the statement, give their opinion on it and then explain what they think should change to make the scenario gender equal going forward?

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts

Cee-Jay-Cee wrote: »

The question asks for the persons opinion. How can their opinion be wrong???? If they gave their opinion regardless of what it is then they have completed the task asked of them and should be given 3 marks.

The person marking the paper is clearly as ass.

Well, just giving an opinion wouldn’t warrant full marks by itself. The opinion would be judged by what logic was reached to come to that conclusion. Not all opinions are equal. One that clearly comes from a knowledgeable place is worth more.

inforfun

Was it possible to answer with videoclips?

Women football: https://www.dumpert.nl/mediabase/7283085/d018f546/drie_vrouwen_voor_open_doel.html

It is just a hobby where they play for friends and family in the audience.
And no, that isnt some low level match, that is a womens Champions league match

Plopsu

The student should be given zero marks. The lower marks he/she is given for correct answers, the quicker he/she will cop on to it as bullsh*t (though it sounds as if this kid has enough of a brain to be working that out already).

meeeeh

Plopsu wrote: »

The student should be given zero marks. The lower marks he/she is given for correct answers, the quicker he/she will cop on to it as bullsh*t (though it sounds as if this kid has enough of a brain to be working that out already).

You mean because you are happy with the answer he/she has enough of a brain. It doesn't work like that.

xi5yvm0owc1s2b

Zenify wrote: »

Just to clarify, this is a secondary school exam. The teacher isn't giving 1 mark because the answer is too short, It's because the section of the book is about gender inequality. The question is badly worded and the students answer is based on fact, however it doesn't address inequality. It's interesting to me because it's a very valid argument about inequality to pay in sport but obviously the book doesn't cover it.

But there's no "gender inequality" here. It's entirely about revenue. The men's World Cup generated around $6.1 billion in revenues for FIFA, while the best the Women's World Cup has ever done is about $73 million in revenues in 2011.

That means the men's World Cup generates around 85 times as much revenue as the women's equivalent. Of course the top male players get paid more, given how much revenue they bring in.

That said, large salaries might be the norm for the top players at the top clubs, but the players' union Fifpro has documented that only 2 percent of all players earn more than USD $720,000 (€635,000) per year. Three-quarters of players earn less than USD $4,000 (€3,500) per month, and 45 percent of players make less than USD $1,000 (€880 per month) -- meaning that almost half the world's male footballers make around the equivalent of jobseekers allowance or less.

3DataModem

Zenify wrote: »

The teacher did state that the answer is completely factually correct. He just knows that's not the answer the question wanted. I think he's trying to do what he is supposed to do and not what he believes.

The question was "what is your opinion?" not "why is this the case?"

I now think the teacher is right in not giving full marks. The student has just offered the reason for the difference, and not offered any perspective of their own on it.

Plopsu

meeeeh wrote: »

You mean because you are happy with the answer he/she has enough of a brain. It doesn't work like that.

No, because it's the correct answer but not the answer that's being looked for.

3DataModem

Zenify wrote: »

The teacher did state that the answer is completely factually correct. He just knows that's not the answer the question wanted. I think he's trying to do what he is supposed to do and not what he believes.

The question was "what is your opinion?" not "why is this the case?"

I now think the teacher is right in not giving full marks. The student has just offered the reason for the difference, and not offered any perspective of their own on it.

If the student said "football is generally a meritocracy, not like tennis where in the biggest competition the 300th best player in the world gets paid the same as the 1st just because they are a specific gender" then I'd probably give full marks.

XsApollo

I don’t think women are banned from playing in any Soccer team?
Players are paid on their skill or worth , when a female player comes along that can play with the big boys I’m sure she will get paid accordingly.
Wages ar’nt about gender they are about skill..
Basically they don’t get paid the same because they ar’nt good enough.

xi5yvm0owc1s2b

Zenify wrote: »

There's a question in a recent C.S.P.E. exam which starts of stating that Male soccer players get paid more than female soccer players. The question then asks what is your opinion? Explain your point of view.

Here's the actual question, OP. This is from the 2018 CSPE paper, available on examinations.ie.

The 2014 Men’s Soccer World Cup winners received $35 million in prize money. In 2015, the Women’s Soccer World Cup winners received $2 million in prize money. Many people believe that gender inequality is a real problem in sport. What is your opinion? Explain your point of view.

I would not give the student full marks for writing only one sentence, but he or she is on the right track to point out the enormous disparity in revenue generating capacity between the men's and women's respective World Cups. When one generates around 85 times as much revenue as the other, it's a bit silly to complain that the men were paid over 17 times as much.

meeeeh

Plopsu wrote: »

No, because it's the correct answer but not the answer that's being looked for.

You have to offer a bit of reasoning for that. It is also not the only factor so even as a factual answer it is very much incomplete and there are other reasons for pay discrepancy. The answer shows poor reasoning skills and while it's good enough for boards it is not good to show you actually learned something in the course.

Social sciences get bad press and sometimes with good reason but what it does teach people is that you can't just state something without justifying how you got to the conclusion or why you got to the conclusion. Because I said so is not good enough even for secondary school and if you go with that type of an answer then you should be able to quote a study or numbers that confirm your conclusion.

meeeeh

Randall Old-fashioned Registry wrote: »

Here's the actual question, OP. This is from the 2018 CSPE paper, available on examinations.ie.

The 2014 Men’s Soccer World Cup winners received $35 million in prize money. In 2015, the Women’s Soccer World Cup winners received $2 million in prize money. Many people believe that gender inequality is a real problem in sport. What is your opinion? Explain your point of view.

I would not give the student full marks for writing only one sentence, but he or she is on the right track to point out the enormous disparity in revenue generating capacity between the men's and women's respective World Cups. When one generates around 85 times as much revenue as the other, it's a bit silly to complain that the men were paid over 17 times as much.

But that's exactly it, when a 2 minute forum post reasons the point infinitely better, one point for the answer is generous.

Plopsu

meeeeh wrote: »

You have to offer a bit of reasoning for that. It is also not the only factor so even as a factual answer it is very much incomplete and there are other reasons for pay discrepancy. The answer shows poor reasoning skills and while it's good enough for boards it is not good to show you actually learned something in the course.

Social sciences get bad press and sometimes with good reason but what it does teach people is that you can't just state something without justifying how you got to the conclusion or why you got to the conclusion. Because I said so is not good enough even for secondary school and if you go with that type of an answer then you should be able to quote a study or numbers that confirm your conclusion.

But the answer is self explanatory. The men's sport generates more revenue so the men get paid more. That's also the reasoning.
Now you could claim that the student should have written an essay on why men's football is vastly more popular than women's but that wasn't the question that was asked.
I wonder what the mark the same student would have gotten if they'd written the same amount but attributed the pay discrepancy to sexism.

joe40

There will be a mark scheme, why not just check that.
I'm not a CSPE teacher but the question asks for your opinion. I would therefore imagine if you can give a reasonable opinion backed up by evidence that should get full marks.

xi5yvm0owc1s2b

meeeeh wrote: »

But that's exactly it, when a 2 minute forum post reasons the point infinitely better, one point for the answer is generous.

The marking scheme calls for three marks for a very good explanation, two marks for a good explanation, and one mark for a fair explanation.

To my mind, the explanation given isn't detailed or developed enough, but is on the right track, so I'd give it one mark.

Plopsu

meeeeh wrote: »

But that's exactly it, when a 2 minute forum post reasons the point infinitely better, one point for the answer is generous.

The kids answer was:
"Male soccer has a bigger audience of both Males and females and can therefore afford to pay more from advertising revenue."
Vox's answer was:
"When one generates around 85 times as much revenue as the other, it's a bit silly to complain that the men were paid over 17 times as much."

It's basically the same answer (except the kid didn't have access to the internet to look up the revenues).

granturismo

Zenify wrote: »

There's a question in a recent C.S.P.E. exam which starts of stating that Male soccer players get paid more than female soccer players. The question then asks what is your opinion? Explain your point of view.

A student answered it by saying:

Male soccer has a bigger audience of both Males and females and can therefore afford to pay more from advertising revenue.

It's a 3 mark question. How many Mark's would you give the student? I'm not the teacher btw, I just found it very interesting.

I'd give 1 - two 'ands' used in the same sentence. The word 'Males' is capitalised, in both the attempt and question but I doubt the question was copied and pasted from the original.

ohnonotgmail

Zenify wrote: »

There's a question in a recent C.S.P.E. exam which starts of stating that Male soccer players get paid more than female soccer players. The question then asks what is your opinion? Explain your point of view.

A student answered it by saying:

Male soccer has a bigger audience of both Males and females and can therefore afford to pay more from advertising revenue.

It's a 3 mark question. How many Mark's would you give the student? I'm not the teacher btw, I just found it very interesting.

3 marks out of how many in total for the paper? A one sentence answer is very short. It is revenue in general that is much higher for men's soccer. And it should be men's soccer not male soccer.

xi5yvm0owc1s2b

I'd bear in mind that this question counted for 3 marks out of a total 150, in a 90-minute exam. A student allocating his or her time correctly should therefore spend less than two minutes answering, which doesn't allow for a lot of detail.

That said, I think "Male soccer has a bigger audience of both Males and females and can therefore afford to pay more from advertising revenue" is still too brief. The student also spends time pointing out that the audience for men's soccer includes both men and women, which is irrelevant to the point.

"Men's soccer attracts larger audiences and many times more revenue than women's soccer. The disparity in pay between male and female players is not caused by gender discrimination, but rather by the economics of the sport. Female players should earn more only if their sport becomes more popular and brings in enough money to merit increased salaries."

That's what I'd call a 3-point answer in this case, given the time allowed and the fact that these students are around 15.

meeeeh

Plopsu wrote: »

I wonder what the mark the same student would have gotten if they'd written the same amount but attributed the pay discrepancy to sexism.

I would hope the same, they would deserve no more. Poor answer is a poor answer.

Franz Von Peppercorn

pickarooney wrote: »

The development of the argument is where the points are scored.

'This sucks' or 'this is great' are opinions but essentially worthless ones.

Again, I don't know what age the students are but a 3 point answer would first point out the false equivalence of male and female players which makes no concession at all to the level played at.

I really don’t think that’s what’s going on here.

xi5yvm0owc1s2b

Plopsu wrote: »

I wonder what the mark the same student would have gotten if they'd written the same amount but attributed the pay discrepancy to sexism.

I'd give a lower mark if the student tried to attribute the pay discrepancy to "sexism."

Top male football players make more money than top male snooker players because football attracts larger audiences, more revenue, and bigger sponsorship deals. One could argue that snooker players are every bit as skilled and practice just as much as football players -- but they earn less because their sport doesn't generate as much revenue. Some soccer players earn more in one season than the highest-earning snooker player Ronnie O'Sullivan has earned in his entire 26-year professional career. But it would be a bit silly for snooker players to complain that they are being discriminated against.

The same logic holds true in men's and women's soccer. One brings in billions in revenue and pays its top players a lot. One brings in modest revenue and pays its players significantly less, because that's all it can afford.

joe40

Explanation of point of view on gender inequality in sport 3M
Very good explanation 3m
Good explanation 2m
Fair explanation 1m

The above is from the mark scheme for that exam, on examinations.ie

A well reasoned argument will get the marks. They are not looking for a particular point of view.

Plopsu

Randall Old-fashioned Registry wrote: »

I'd give a lower mark if the student tried to attribute the pay discrepancy to "sexism."

So would I but neither of us are marking the exam (well, I'm assuming you're not) nor are familiar with the course content (again assuming).

xi5yvm0owc1s2b

Plopsu wrote: »

So would I but neither of us are marking the exam (well, I'm assuming you're not) nor are familiar with the course content (again assuming).

The marking scheme states that students will be given marks for "A valid argument, reason, explanation, interpretation, comment, opinion, [or]
judgement relevant to the topic."

Valid arguments, reasons, or explanations based on economic facts should therefore hold more water than specious arguments based on "sexism."

Female soccer players earn significantly less money because their sport generates significantly less revenue. That's a much more valid argument than saying that female soccer players earn significantly less money because sexism.

Plopsu

Randall Old-fashioned Registry wrote: »

The marking scheme states that students will be given marks for "A valid argument, reason, explanation, interpretation, comment, opinion, [or]
judgement relevant to the topic."

Valid arguments, reasons, or explanations based on economic facts should therefore hold more water than specious arguments based on "sexism."

Female soccer players earn significantly less money because their sport generates significantly less revenue. That's a much more valid argument than saying that female soccer players earn significantly less money because sexism.

You would think so and yet here we are arguing why a student who gave a valid (albeit succinct) answer should be marked down.
"Female soccer players earn significantly less money because their sport generates significantly less revenue." is what the student said (yes I know I quoting you there but the student said the same thing). It is self explanatory. There is no way to expand on it without just repeating yourself or having access to revenue figures that would not have been available to the student in the exam and would not have been part of the course.
They gave an answer for which they could be validly given the full amount of marks but the marker is looking to reduce the marks given.

PhoenixParker

Plopsu wrote: »

You would think so and yet here we are arguing why a student who gave a valid (albeit succinct) answer should be marked down.
"Female soccer players earn significantly less money because their sport generates significantly less revenue." is what the student said (yes I know I quoting you there but the student said the same thing). It is self explanatory. There is no way to expand on it without just repeating yourself or having access to revenue figures that would not have been available to the student in the exam and would not have been part of the course.
They gave an answer for which they could be validly given the full amount of marks but the marker is looking to reduce the marks given.

It's not a valid answer. It doesnt state an opinion, nor does it explain that opinion.

It makes a statement related to the question but it doesnt answer the actual question.

Plopsu

PhoenixParker wrote: »

It's not a valid answer. It doesnt state an opinion, nor does it explain that opinion.

It makes a statement related to the question but it doesnt answer the actual question.

The actual question asks what the students opinion is of why the discrepancy exists.
Are you saying that pointing out the differences in revenue isn't an answer to that? It both sates the students opinion and explains it. In a single sentence.

Edit: actually I seem to have misread the question (that's ten page topics for ya). However, given that the question gives the pay discrepancy as an example of gender inequality, it's not unreasonable for the student to answer the question based on that point.

meeeeh

Randall Old-fashioned Registry wrote: »

The marking scheme states that students will be given marks for "A valid argument, reason, explanation, interpretation, comment, opinion, [or]
judgement relevant to the topic."

Valid arguments, reasons, or explanations based on economic facts should therefore hold more water than specious arguments based on "sexism."

So in you opinion there should be an bs marking scale by how much those marking the paper agree with answer.

All you stated there is that you think your opinion is superior to everyone elses.

ohnonotgmail

Plopsu wrote: »

The actual question asks what the students opinion is of why the discrepancy exists.
Are you saying that pointing out the differences in revenue isn't an answer to that? It both sates the students opinion and explains it. In a single sentence.

Its an exam. You need to show that you understand what you are saying. a one sentence answer doesn't do that. And the answer was only partially correct. They said advertising revenues are greater but there is lot more to revenue for football clubs than advertising revenue.

ohnonotgmail

meeeeh wrote: »

So in you opinion there should be an bs marking scale by how much those marking the paper agree with answer.

All you stated there is that you think your opinion is superior to everyone elses.

If you answer that the reason is sexism then you need to be able to justify that. What grounds are there that justify that answer? If you can find some you will get some marks.

joe40

"The 2014 Men’s Soccer World Cup winners received $35 million in prize money. In 2015, the Women’s Soccer World Cup winners received $2 million in prize money. Many people believe that gender inequality is a real problem in sport. What is your opinion? Explain your point of view"

The difference in pay is just there to illustrate a point. The question is not why do male footballers earn more than female footballers.

The question asks for the students opinion on whether "gender inequality is a real problem in sport".

Simply focusing on the reason for difference in pay for footballers does not answer the question. (The reason is correct by the way)

Plopsu

joe40 wrote: »

"The 2014 Men’s Soccer World Cup winners received $35 million in prize money. In 2015, the Women’s Soccer World Cup winners received $2 million in prize money. Many people believe that gender inequality is a real problem in sport. What is your opinion? Explain your point of view"

The difference in pay is just there to illustrate a point. The question is not why do male footballers earn more than female footballers.

The question asks for the students opinion on whether "gender inequality is a real problem in sport".

Simply focusing on the reason for difference in pay for footballers does not answer the question. (The reason is correct by the way)

Technically, there's no wrong answer based on the phrasing of the question. Likewise, if the question was, "What's your favourite colour? Explain why?". Any answer to that is correct. Asking for an opinion and a reason for that opinion leaves no answer wrong, even if the opinion is stupid and the reason spurious.

meeeeh

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

If you answer that the reason is sexism then you need to be able to justify that. What grounds are there that justify that answer? If you can find some you will get some marks.

I agree but if someone just goes that well they deserve high marks. I'm not arguing sexism is the right answer, I'm saying there is no right answer there are just good and bad arguments and conclusions (unless there is some conclusive study that points to exact reasons but I suspect it wouldn't be on secondary school curriculum).

ohnonotgmail

meeeeh wrote: »

I agree but if someone just goes that well they deserve high marks. I'm not arguing sexism is the right answer, I'm saying there is no right answer there are just good and bad arguments and conclusions (unless there is some conclusive study that points to exact reasons but I suspect it wouldn't be on secondary school curriculum).

well to that particular there is a right answer. the answer is to do with revenue. the marks are awarded for the student showing an understanding of why that is.

PhoenixParker

Plopsu wrote: »

Technically, there's no wrong answer based on the phrasing of the question. Likewise, if the question was, "What's your favourite colour? Explain why?". Any answer to that is correct. Asking for an opinion and a reason for that opinion leaves no answer wrong, even if the opinion is stupid and the reason spurious.

If this was the question the student effectively said:

The sky is a nice colour blue.

Instead of:

Blue is my favourite colour because I love a bright blue sky.

Both statements are right but only one is a correct answer.

meeeeh

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

well to that particular there is a right answer. the answer is to do with revenue. the marks are awarded for the student showing an understanding of why that is.

No there isn't, you think it is abd its just your opinion. Those numbers are there to help students who know nothing about sport to make some sort of arguments.

Plopsu

PhoenixParker wrote: »

If this was the question the student effectively said:
The sky is a nice colour blue.

Instead of:

Blue is my favourite colour because I love a bright blue sky.

Both statements are right but only one is a correct answer.

So, if the student had added, "I don't think it's an issue", before what they wrote that would be full marks then....?

meeeeh

Plopsu wrote: »

So, if the student had added, "I don't think it's an issue", before what they wrote that would be full marks then....?

I don't think it's a full marks answer but it is a lot better answer.

xi5yvm0owc1s2b

meeeeh wrote: »

So in you opinion there should be an bs marking scale by how much those marking the paper agree with answer.

All you stated there is that you think your opinion is superior to everyone elses.

I didn't say that my opinion is superior to everyone else's; I said that students who presented educated opinions grounded in facts should have been given higher marks than students who were just blowing smoke.

I'm sure many students saw the $2 million vs $35 million as a prime example of gender inequality in sports, and proposed that the women should have been paid the same as the men. But paying $35 million to the winning women makes no sense when one considers that the Women's World Cup generated just $73 million in total revenue. There simply was no feasible way to pay them the same amount as the winners of a men's tournament that generated 85 times as much revenue.