Baby in bed with us, still won't sleep

The_B_Man

Hi,

Our 18 month girl sleeps in the bed with us. She's also being breastfed at night in order to get her to sleep.
In addition to this, she's up a few times a night. She used to want to be breastfed when she woke during the night but we managed to switch to a sippy cup, although now she's back wanting milk.

It seems we've made a complete mess of the whole bedtime situation. It's a complete write-off. We need to start again.

Does anyone have any advice on where to start? Should we try move her into her own bed first? Should we try get her to sleep through a full night first? Or get her off the breastfeeding altogether first?

Thanks.

Chopper83

Your baby needs to learn to have the ability to settle independently and this is being thwarted due to the feeding sleep association, this is essentially what needs fixed. Your baby's sleep association needs of being fed means they are expecting, needing and getting this each night and not learning to get themselves over, this belief confirmed every time you help.

You need a transition period and a complete change to what your currently doing.

Transfer your baby to a new environment, as in away from your bed. Every nap if possible should be in this place so they are falling asleep and waking up in the same place and conditions. She will be able to self settle but needs to learn to go down awake but drowsy. It may take a 4 or 5 nights but it will work if you are consistent in your approach and not bringing the baby into your bed and lifting her every time she makes a noise or wants fed.

We went through something similar and it comes to a point were you need to intervene and 18 months is well past that!

jlm29

My 17mo old boy was the same up until a week and a half ago. Feeding loads by night, but just to get him to go back to sleep, and in the bed with us most nights. His older brother was the same until the same age.
I’ve just found that it takes a few nights (this little guy has been much quicker to sort) of hard work! A couple of weeks ago his dad brought him up to his own cot, put him in it, and sat with him until he went to sleep. For the first couple of nights he might have had a couple of toys, a bottle with milk in, but that was all gone very quickly.
The first couple of nights he woke a few times, but was gone back to sleep in a couple of minutes. If he wakes properly, one of us goes and sits in the room again until he goes to sleep.
The older guy was more work, we started sitting in the room with him in our lap, and progressed to putting him in the cot and sitting there, to eventually sitting outside the door (singing, usually) until he was asleep.
They’ve both settled much faster for their dad than for me

The_B_Man

We have a cot bed at the end of our bed. She hated being put in it so I took the side off and converted it to its bed form. She naps in that during the day. Are you saying this should be moved into another room? Should it still be a cot, or is a bed OK?

Also, we did try just not giving her milk at night but she'll cry for an hour before we give in. Not just a tired whimper but a proper howl, like she's in pain! It's awful. She's a stubborn little one.

Her bedtime routine is, she'll go down at 7:30, then be up at 10, then maybe 1. Possibly once or twice then until 5:30 when she's up again for a while. Then she'll go back down til 7:30 or 8. Such a pain. She has her last meal an hour before bed but she still wants the milk.

I've said to the missus multiple times before that we need to fix this but there's always an excuse, like "we can't, she's teething", or "no she's sick". I'm starting to think she doesn't want to get it fixed!

fits

Does baby have their own room? You could consider a mattress on the floor and continue feeding to sleep and withdraw once baby is asleep. Then you could gradually reduce night feeds by non bfing going into comfort between feeds.

The_B_Man

She kinda has her own room. The small 3rd bedroom is hers but as we've only moved in to this house, it's currently full of boxes. We have to clear it and then decorate it. So as of now she's in our room. I suppose we could move the boxes into the second bedroom if it's needed.

Chopper83

The_B_Man wrote: »

We have a cot bed at the end of our bed. She hated being put in it so I took the side off and converted it to its bed form. She naps in that during the day. Are you saying this should be moved into another room? Should it still be a cot, or is a bed OK?

Also, we did try just not giving her milk at night but she'll cry for an hour before we give in. Not just a tired whimper but a proper howl, like she's in pain! It's awful. She's a stubborn little one.

Her bedtime routine is, she'll go down at 7:30, then be up at 10, then maybe 1. Possibly once or twice then until 5:30 when she's up again for a while. Then she'll go back down til 7:30 or 8. Such a pain. She has her last meal an hour before bed but she still wants the milk.

I've said to the missus multiple times before that we need to fix this but there's always an excuse, like "we can't, she's teething", or "no she's sick". I'm starting to think she doesn't want to get it fixed!

She really doesn't need milk at night now assuming she is on solids. That hour of crying will reduce to 40 minutes, 30 minute, 15 minutes then 0 once she realises this is now the new way forward.

You really need to have a few days of being consistent in putting her in the cot, no milk but reassuring her you are there with gradual removal of any physical intervention so she puts herself over. After a few days this approach should work.

shesty

She's crying because she's 18 months and that's how they know to get their way-and let's face it in the middle of the night, we are weak, we just want sleep!The thing is that she actually wants to go back to sleep too (hence the crying) but the only way she knows how to drop off is with the milk.Her body is waking every couple of hours, and she doesn't know how to settle herself again without milk.

Firstly I'd say move her out.Our third is seven months, and on his way out because at this point we are disturbing him.He is in his own cot but us shifting in our sleep, or even talking in our sleep or whatever is disturbing him.I have always noticed this on ours, around now they are ready for their own room.Make her room hers, show all round it, maybe let her get changed in it first for a few nights, then shift her cot into it -but leave her in the cot because otherwise she will keep coming back into you.

As for the waking, if you want to cut out the milk feeds you will have to prepare yourself for a few nights of sitting in there with her.(have a bed or comfy chair in the room for yourself).She will cry but unfortunately you have to sit it out.It takes ten days to break a habit, and once you are in there giving her the support, it will go.She will still wake some nights because they all do, but once she is in the habit of settling in her own room she will mostly go back to sleep much quicker.

Unfortunately as with many sleep things, the need is more on the parents to change their behaviour, and through that, change the child's behaviour, rather than to expect the child to suddenly have a lightbulb moment st this age and start sleeping through the night in her own room.It's really hard on you, I have done the hours of sitting on the landing at 2am, but a few nights of hardship for a few years of proper night's sleep....it's worth it.

jlm29

A friend of mine followed Lucy Wolfs book recently with a younger child, with great results. I’m a bit skeptical of LW, but my friend would definitely recommend. There are other books called “the no cry sleep solution” and jay gordons night weaning method/book, that I have seen highly recommended, but have not read.
TBH, I think you can figure a lot of it out with a common sense approach, but if you want a bit of a plan, then following a method might be beneficial.
It’s fine for her to be in your room at 18 mths, if that’s what works for you all as a family, but if you’re posting here then it’s probably not working as it is, and the best place to start is moving baby to her own room

cornflake1

Hi. I am not there yet as baby is only 5 months but I have heard a lot of recommendations for the Jay Gordon night weaning method for breastfed babies over one.

The_B_Man

Thanks for the advice.
So basically either go cold turkey with the night feeds, or else move her to her own bed (preferably in another room) and continue the feeds for the time being with a view to going cold turkey once she's settled in her bed.

bee06

cornflake1 wrote: »

Hi. I am not there yet as baby is only 5 months but I have heard a lot of recommendations for the Jay Gordon night weaning method for breastfed babies over one.

I was going to suggest the same. It’s recommended a lot in a certain BF Facebook group I’m in. And it’s gentle weaning not cry it out etc.

To be honest, I don’t think there is anything wrong with feeding to sleep if that’s what your wife/partner wants to do. You say she’s always making excuses. Are you sure she sees it as a problem?

Chopper83

I don't see why the baby needs fed to sleep though, they certainly don't need it at that age.

Honestly you'd have a massive improvement within a week if you stayed consistent and moved the baby into her cot.

Neyite

The_B_Man wrote: »

Thanks for the advice.
So basically either go cold turkey with the night feeds, or else move her to her own bed (preferably in another room) and continue the feeds for the time being with a view to going cold turkey once she's settled in her bed.

What we did was swap to sips of water instead of milk, just in case it was thirst. That also breaks the association with a feed. We moved the cot out of our room and took turns going in with him every other night so at least one of us got half-decent sleeps every second night.

Now, our baby was a poor sleeper and never slept through until he was 3.5. And the first few nights he did sleep through, both of us woke because we were used to waking and would wake with a start thinking something was wrong because he didn't wake! :pac:

Even now, he'll still come in with us most nights so it's like musical beds. I go in with him until he's asleep, then he will get in with us. Due to all the kicking off of the duvet he does, and now he's much bigger there's no room so one of us will abandon ship and move to his bed.

fits

Chopper83 wrote: »

I don't see why the baby needs fed to sleep though, they certainly don't need it at that age.

Honestly you'd have a massive improvement within a week if you stayed consistent and moved the baby into her cot.

I try to look at it from their point of view. The baby won’t understand why a major source of comfort to them is suddenly withdrawn. They may not need it for nutrition but that doesn’t mean they don’t need it. It could be very traumatic.

Some sources say to introduce a comfort object at those bedtime feeds and gradually they will see it as an extension of you.

We have twins in their own room in a king sized bed. I feed them to sleep and then go to our own bed. I go in and out during the night but they are gradually going longer stretches without me having to be there all the time. They are less easily disturbed and woken lately too.

s4uv3

Chopper83 wrote: »

I don't see why the baby needs fed to sleep though, they certainly don't need it at that age.

The baby needs to be fed to sleep because that's what she is, a baby. They're hardwired to need to sleep near parents and seek comfort throughout the night. All this "self-soothing" crap is just that. Babies need to be comforted in their early years, it's as simple as that.

brokensoul

s4uv3 wrote: »

The baby needs to be fed to sleep because that's what she is, a baby. They're hardwired to need to sleep near parents and seek comfort throughout the night. All this "self-soothing" crap is just that. Babies need to be comforted in their early years, it's as simple as that.

I have to disagree with that.

My kids slept in their own room from when they were 2 weeks old. At the start we slept in with them and once they started sleeping though the night (at about 14 weeks) we left them and went back into our own room. Apart from the odd night when they wake for teething or whatever, they sleep through the night since.

I have twins so I appreciate that is slightly different, but I don't think it is a given that babies need to seek comfort during the night.

s4uv3

brokensoul wrote: »

I have to disagree with that.

My kids slept in their own room from when they were 2 weeks old. At the start we slept in with them and once they started sleeping though the night (at about 14 weeks) we left them and went back into our own room. Apart from the odd night when they wake for teething or whatever, they sleep through the night since.

I have twins so I appreciate that is slightly different, but I don't think it is a given that babies need to seek comfort during the night.

Ok, I'll agree that some babies need comfort throughout the night and some don't. But I was referring to the ones that do in my point. They just need comfort and that's it. I'm 37, and most nights I cuddle into my husband if I wake in the middle of the night.

Grumpypants

We made the same mistake, thinking our baby was hungry and kept feeding him when he woke every 4 hours for a bottle, for 9ish months. 30mins to feed burb and settle. I nearly lost my mind.

I took one weekend when my wife was away. 1 hour before bed he got a small bowl of porridge (no sugar or honey) to keep him full and help produce melatonin. Swapped milk feeds for a bottle with water. And slept in the bed next to his cot, but in his room.

First night he woke but only got a few sips of water and went right back to sleep. 2 mins max. Next night he only woke once, ever since he has slept for 8-12 hours a night. It was like magic.

For our girl she was different she would cry to be picked up. Again had to wait for my wife to be gone (soft touch), then i slept in the bed next to the cot. Didn't entertain the crying but she knew i was there. Took one night and she was sorted.

You can tell if they are really upset or crying to get their own way.

margo321

I heard people saying put some lemon juice on the boob so it wouldn't taste nice. Might help as she will learn she no longer wants to feed. I'm sure she will be upset but maybe an easier way.

Springfields

Def look up lucy wolfe sleep consultant
Her book is.fantastic and it does work.
It will probably take a week or two of persistence but if you stick.with it you will all be sleeping better.
She deals with breastfed babies and lots of different scenarios with a stay and support method which is less stressful for your little one.
I highly recommend her book..
Best of luck

annoyedgal

Shestys advice is spot on. Firstly you both need to be on the same page about making a change.
We moved our man into his own cot and room first off. I did a few nights of going in for feeds then we night weaned.
My husband stayed in with him for night one as he screamed the place down. It was rough.
Night two he cried a lot less, night three woke once or so little cry then back to sleep. That was the end of it. Mostly slept through after and if he did wake husband went into him. He was around 13 months at the time.
Three rough nights and you'll see huge improvement. Mum can't really do the comforting if feeding as its confusing and we made sure he was never left alone when crying as don't believe in that personally.
He had zero bother moving to own room and cot. Definitely more about my behaviour at that stage than his. Good luck

pwurple

At 18 months old, unless you're brushing after all those feeds, you're making a complete mess of her teeth as well. All that sugar from the milk knocking around her mouth for the night.

Anne_cordelia

pwurple wrote: »

At 18 months old, unless you're brushing after all those feeds, you're making a complete mess of her teeth as well. All that sugar from the milk knocking around her mouth for the night.

Breastfeeding does not cause tooth delay.

https://kellymom.com/ages/older-infant/tooth-decay/

sasal

Def look up lucy wolfe sleep consultant
Her book is.fantastic and it does work.


What qualifications does Lucy Wolfe have in child development, what makes her an expert?

Human milk has melatonin which aids sleep.

Springfields

sasal wrote: »

Def look up lucy wolfe sleep consultant
Her book is.fantastic and it does work.


What qualifications does Lucy Wolfe have in child development, what makes her an expert?

Human milk has melatonin which aids sleep.

No one is saying that breast milk doesn't aid sleep ? But this breast fed baby (irrelevant really how it's fed) has developed bad sleeping habits that is parent is trying to sort out..
Lucy wolfe has studied child sleep patterns for years and has helped 100s of families so that makes her an expert in my book. And I used her methods and it worked for me. Hence the advice.

appledrop

The first thing I would say is that no toddler at 18mths needs a feed during the night. It's just a habit they have developed. I would never stop a feed for baby but at 18mths they have a full varied diet. I know we used to give our little boy some porridge or weetabix before bed so if he did wake we knew it wasn't due to hunger. Now that's not to say that they wont get upset. They are using it for comfort but your doing yourself or child no favours by continuing. Our little boy went through difficult sleep stage about 14 mths. We would get him off to sleep but then he would wake around 11 and on + off for hours. We were like zombies+ wasn't helping anyone. Anyway my husband decided enough was enough we had to try sleep training. He was always in his own cot but when awake at night would cry to get out. First night he cried for few hours. Now we never left him during this time I would not be able for that but just sat beside him + told him he needed to go asleep. The second night it took an hour to settle him. Third night he was asleep in 20mins + best decision we ever made. Now it was the hardest thing ever but in long run best decision for everyone + he is such a good sleeper now. They are all different + this exact approach might not work but if you continue on they way you are it won't do anyone any good in long run.

pwurple

Anne_cordelia wrote: »

Breastfeeding does not cause tooth delay.

https://kellymom.com/ages/older-infant/tooth-decay/

Not really correct though, not even at a common sense level. carbohydrates in the mouth overnight, whatever the source, will do some damage. It’s not impossible to mitigate, quick clean, back to sleep.

And sorry, but that is such an odd link to use.
“kellymom” references unpublished, unverified, unreviewed sources. They might as well print a horoscope as evidence of that opinion.

Here is a recent published peadiatric study showing children with 2.4 times more dental damage from age 2, when breastfed during the night.

http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/140/1/e20162943?sso=1&sso_redirect_count=1&nfstatus=401&nftoken=00000000-0000-0000-0000-000000000000&nfstatusdescription=ERROR%3A%20No%20local%20token


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fits

pwurple wrote: »

Here is a recent published peadiatric study showing children with 2.4 times more dental damage from age 5 when breastfed Past the age of two. With no effect seen in children breastfed up to the age of two.

http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/140/1/e20162943?sso=1&sso_redirect_count=1&nfstatus=401&nftoken=00000000-0000-0000-0000-000000000000&nfstatusdescription=ERROR%3A%20No%20local%20token


.

I fixed your post. At least cite the study properly!