Donald Trump presidency discussion thread V

Eric Cartman

mcmoustache wrote: »

Correction; he got 25,772,342.

the precise dollar amount is also retarded. Like there is just no possible way on this planet anyone could that accurately measure that.

mcmoustache

Eric Cartman wrote: »

ofcourse theyre fabricated , but sure so is the DHS's number it seems, I'd assume if there was a better method of getting the data that they would have done it already. I think the thing to take from the calculations ive done though is, it could be closer to 30 million than the DHS let on and its unlikely to be lower than their number , but using flawed data to argue flawed data is....flawed...

That's what the tweet claimed. It would have been nice if the tweet provided more information but it's a tweet and is somewhat limited.

Eric Cartman

mcmoustache wrote: »

That's what the tweet claimed. It would have been nice if the tweet provided more information but it's a tweet and is somewhat limited.

Yes, but its a tweet from a body that also fabricated the number.

mcmoustache

I think you're conflating the DHS with the HHSC. The pdf that you linked is from Trump's DHS. The tweet from HHSC only claimed that Trump's numbers were fabricated.

Thargor

Eric Cartman wrote: »

Yes, but its a tweet from a body that also fabricated the number.

mcmoustache wrote: »

I think you're conflating the DHS with the HHSC. The pdf that you linked is from Trump's DHS. The tweet from HHSC only claimed that Trump's numbers were fabricated.

Yeah, and even if he wasn't wrong there he seems to be equating one parties numbers that they got from a scientific study using appropriate statistical methods with a fat troll hammering the numpad on his keyboard until he generates a series of random bigly numbers.

Eric Cartman

mcmoustache wrote: »

I think you're conflating the DHS with the HHSC. The pdf that you linked is from Trump's DHS. The tweet from HHSC only claimed that Trump's numbers were fabricated.

Thargor wrote: »

Yeah, and even if he wasn't wrong there he seems to be equating one parties numbers that they got from a scientific study using appropriate statistical methods with a fat troll hammering the numpad on his keyboard until he generates a series of random bigly numbers.

The HHSC have reposted the 11 million figure many times , and linked to a washington post article saying trump was wrong that uses the same study as evidence.

Thargor : as ive shown above, the methodology of the study is flawed, yet again this is not a defence of donald but nobody appears to have the right number.

https://insights.som.yale.edu/insights/yale-study-finds-twice-as-many-undocumented-immigrants-as-previous-estimates

Using mathematical modeling on a range of demographic and immigration operations data, the researchers estimate there are 22.1 million undocumented immigrants in the United States.

Yale are estimating 22 million.

RobertKK

I hope in 2020 we get someone who uses drones in a sensible manner.
Turns out Bush Jr was cautious compared to Obama who went heavy into drone use, and watching Newsnight, Trump is far worse.
So many innocent people are being murdered and have been murdered by the recent US presidents.
No accountability for any of them.

Christy42

Eric Cartman wrote: »

Midlife wrote: »

I don't agree with everything you say Eric but I've had reasonable coonversations with you.

You're better than the above though.

Stop siding blindly with your team. By all means position yourself on the libertarian right but use your intelligence and call things as you see it.

The above post is nonsense. What's shameful is that you know perfectly well it's nonsense.

Im not siding blindly with anyone. This is not in defence of donald. I wanted to see how the DHS got 11 million and he got 25, Their survey I think is a bit of a farce considering the method they use , its well admitted that illegal immigrants won't respond to the survey so their number cant be accurate and nor can his. But I still showed that there is a way to get to 25 million albeit based on flawed data thats now being used as not flawed data to refute his number.

Im not defending donald here, but I think both that committee and the man himself are being economical with the truth in this case.

Dhs didn't get anything. Their initial tweet was simply to point out that Trump made up his figures. Then they backed it up by pointing to a study.

You can argue a studies method is flawed but they at least had back up for it. They didn't make it up, they simply made an error if the study is wrong. Indeed there are multiple studies around the 11 mark.

Trump actively made up his number with no back up. Do you see the difference?

Trump actively lied. Being economical with the truth is incredibly generous to him. He made up a number (an incredibly exact number) that even the most generous study (the challenged Yale model) says is overestimating the number.

mcmoustache

RobertKK wrote: »

I hope in 2020 we get someone who uses drones in a sensible manner.
Turns out Bush Jr was cautious compared to Obama who went heavy into drone use, and watching Newsnight, Trump is far worse.
So many innocent people are being murdered and have been murdered by the recent US presidents.
No accountability for any of them.

Yeah. That's why I like guys like Abraham Lincoln who didn't order a drone strike on anyone.

Brian?

Penn wrote: »

But doesn't that only apply to not incriminating yourself? If lying during the news conference isn't a crime (regardless of the ethics of it given the position he's in), the 5th Amendment would hardly apply, would it?

He can plead the 5th to any question he’s asked at any time. At least that’s my understanding

everlast75

Looks like the Reps finally nominated those who they want to sit on the Intel committee. That will enable the committee to meet (at last).

The first order of business is for the transcripts of those who testified to go to Mueller.

After that decision is made, it will take 3 days to get them across.

So Mueller will have them Tuesday next week(probably).

Expect Donny Jr to get a subpoena by the end of Feb I would say.

Igotadose

RobertKK wrote: »

I hope in 2020 we get someone who uses drones in a sensible manner.
Turns out Bush Jr was cautious compared to Obama who went heavy into drone use, and watching Newsnight, Trump is far worse.
So many innocent people are being murdered and have been murdered by the recent US presidents.
No accountability for any of them.

But you endorsed Trump! Any regrets?

And, were you even *slightly* surprised that the GOP would be gung-ho pro-war? The 'mother of all bombs.' Letting Russia buddy up Iran and rain death on the Syrians. Leaving Assad in power as a result.

All due to the efforts of the GOP backers.

check_six

RobertKK wrote: »

I hope in 2020 we get someone who uses drones in a sensible manner.
Turns out Bush Jr was cautious compared to Obama who went heavy into drone use, and watching Newsnight, Trump is far worse.
So many innocent people are being murdered and have been murdered by the recent US presidents.
No accountability for any of them.

Is the increased drone use more down to advances in technology rather than any particular policy changes? I'd guess that drones were only really coming on line around '04 or so. Anyone know?

salmocab

check_six wrote: »

Is the increased drone use more down to advances in technology rather than any particular policy changes? I'd guess that drones were only really coming on line around '04 or so. Anyone know?

I would say that’s it exactly, if we put policies aside why would you risk a pilot when you can send a drone. It also means that it’s easier to make the decision. So something that may have been unpalatable to send a jet to is now easier. I know they still have people controlling no them essentially but it’s from a base miles away and the person is removed by distance.

looksee

https://edition.cnn.com/videos/politics/2019/01/30/sarah-sanders-cbn-god-wanted-trump-president-sot-ebof-vpx.cnn/video/playlists/this-week-in-politics/

Sarah Sanders clarifies everything, this is why Trump became president. God wanted it. I loved the reply 'if He did it was to punish us for taking our democracy for granted'.

everlast75

looksee wrote: »

https://edition.cnn.com/videos/politics/2019/01/30/sarah-sanders-cbn-god-wanted-trump-president-sot-ebof-vpx.cnn/video/playlists/this-week-in-politics/

Sarah Sanders clarifies everything, this is why Trump became president. I loved the reply 'if He did it was to punish us for taking our democracy for granted'.

In that case, it was also God's will that Cohen was arrested, Stone was arrested and of course, that Robert S Mueller the Third was appointed as Special Counsel...

Cheerful Spring

everlast75 wrote: »

In which the President is now criticising and contradicting his own intelligence agencies.

This really is incredible stuff.

Is Trump hearing his info from Putin (remember the Montenegro story, the narrative regarding Russia and Afghanistan etc)?

Is he undermining them in the event that they come out with some info on him later?

https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/1090608298343190528

Surely this is proof Trump is not a Putin puppet. Trump foreign policy is to go after Iran and Venezuela and they are both allies of Russia.

Trump does not understand the middle east. He learns about the middle east from the Israelis and Fox News.

Igotadose

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

Surely this is proof Trump is not a Putin puppet. Trump foreign policy is to go after Iran and Venezuela and they are both allies of Russia.

Trump does not understand the middle east. He learns about the middle east from the Israelis and Fox News.

Trump's foreign policy is reduce the US, so Russia, a not-very-strong country, is seen as stronger overseas, bringing misguided pride to Russia domestically, and as a result strengthening Putin's grip on power. Russia will sacrifice allies to further Putin's ends. I doubt they care at all about Syria or Iran except as an opposition to the US (US does the same tbf.)

The Senate may rebuke Trump about this: https://thehill.com/homenews/senate/427773-gop-poised-to-rebuke-trump

"(the Senate plans) to send Trump a stern admonishment by voting Thursday afternoon on an amendment sponsored by McConnell warning “the precipitous withdrawal” of U.S. forces from Syria and Afghanistan “could put at risk hard-won gains and United States national security.” "

Perhaps they're concerned about his shoot-from-the-tweet style of government. And talk is cheap in DC, we'll see what the Senate actually does.

duploelabs

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

Surely this is proof Trump is not a Putin puppet. Trump foreign policy is to go after Iran and Venezuela and they are both allies of Russia.

Trump does not understand the middle east. He learns about the middle east from the Israelis and Fox News.

It's a very simplified (and uneducated) view of world politics to think there are just 'goodies' and 'baddies'

Cheerful Spring

Igotadose wrote: »

Trump's foreign policy is reduce the US, so Russia, a not-very-strong country, is seen as stronger overseas, bringing misguided pride to Russia domestically, and as a result strengthening Putin's grip on power. Russia will sacrifice allies to further Putin's ends. I doubt they care at all about Syria or Iran except as an opposition to the US (US does the same tbf.)

The Senate may rebuke Trump about this: https://thehill.com/homenews/senate/427773-gop-poised-to-rebuke-trump

"(the Senate plans) to send Trump a stern admonishment by voting Thursday afternoon on an amendment sponsored by McConnell warning “the precipitous withdrawal” of U.S. forces from Syria and Afghanistan “could put at risk hard-won gains and United States national security.” "

Perhaps they're concerned about his shoot-from-the-tweet style of government. And talk is cheap in DC, we'll see what the Senate actually does.

How does removing Maduro help Putin? Trump clearly came out and declared that Guaido guy president.

American warplanes are constantly flying over the Baltic and American warships are entering the black sea that annoying the Russians.

Trump gave support to Ukraine over the Kerch incident. I don't see Trump undermining America.

There very little Trump has done to support Putin. Syrian war was a dead end as most of the country is controlled by Syria government and Turkey.

everlast75

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

How does removing Maduro help Putin? Trump clearly came out and declared that Guaido guy president.

American warplanes are constantly flying over the Baltic and American warships are entering the black sea that annoying the Russians.

Trump gave support to Ukraine over the Kerch incident. I don't see Trump undermining America.

There very little Trump has done to support Putin. Syrian war was a dead end as most of the country is controlled by Syria government and Turkey.

He said he intends on leaving Syria, which is a win for Russia.

He legitimized Russia's invasion of Afghanistan.

He criticised Montenegro, which came directly and reinforced Putin's view.

He had no issue with the annexation of Crimea.

He wants to pull out of NATO.

He was reluctant to issue sanctions and only did so when forced to.

He subsequently dropped sanctions re Oleg.

He has met Putin 5 times without any intelligence officers, refused to share notes of what occurred (which undermines his own security agencies ability to protect the US)and opens himself up to leverage by Putin.

That's just off the top of the head!

Cheerful Spring

everlast75 wrote: »

He said he intends on leaving Syria, which is a win for Russia.

He legitimized Russia's invasion of Afghanistan.

He criticised Montenegro, which came directly and reinforced Putin's view.

He had no issue with the annexation of Crimea.

He wants to pull out of NATO.

He was reluctant to issue sanctions and only did so when forced to.

He subsequently dropped sanctions re Oleg.

He has met Putin 5 times without any intelligence officers, refused to share notes of what occurred (which undermines his own security agencies ability to protect the US)and opens himself up to leverage by Putin.

That's just off the top of the head!

The Syrian war is over. There no point staying in Syria and wasting taxpayers money. What you what to happen next Russia fight the United States over Syria?

Soviet Union invaded to protect the communist government from being overrun by The mujahideen starting in1979. Mujahideen was supported by the United States. Trump made a false claim they did so to stop terrorists attacking the Soviet Union. Trump does not know history it got very little to do with Putin. Trump claim is partially true Soviets spend a lot of money to fight this war in Afganistan and gained nothing from it in the end. I think thats the point Trump was trying to make?

Trump was asking why would we start WW3 over Montenegro. Valid question.

Either do I. Crimea had a special relationship with Russia and the Soviet Union. That changed with a coup. Overthrown by neo-fascists. Soviet Union lost 28 million people to Nazi fascists, Ukraine right next door to them, Putin was going to act on it. Crimea is 68 per cent Russian, it basically a colony of Russia inside Ukraine.

Trump has asked Nato members to pay more for defence.. Why should the United States pay for most of it? I think people did not listen to why he threatened to pull out.

That false Trump has sanctioned Russia more than Obama
https://thehill.com/opinion/white-house/397212-president-trump-is-tougher-on-russia-in-18-months-than-obama-in-eight

You don't have to share the info between two presidents of different countries. Its a private meeting between two heads of state. You not supposed to learn the details.

Cheerful Spring

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

The Syrian war is over. There no point staying in Syria and wasting taxpayers money. What you what to happen next Russia fight the United States over Syria?

Soviet Union invaded to protect the communist government from being overrun by The mujahideen starting in1979. Mujahideen was supported by the United States. Trump made a false claim they did so to stop terrorists attacking the Soviet Union. Trump does not know history it got very little to do with Putin. Trump claim is partially true Soviets spend a lot of money to fight this war in Afganistan and gained nothing from it in the end. I think thats the point Trump was trying to make?

Trump was asking why would we start WW3 over Montenegro. Valid question.

Either do I. Crimea had a special relationship with Russia and the Soviet Union. That changed with a coup. Overthrown by neo-fascists. Soviet Union lost 28 million people to Nazi fascists, Ukraine right next door to them, Putin was going to act on it. Crimea is 68 per cent Russian, it basically a colony of Russia inside Ukraine.

Trump has asked Nato members to pay more for defence.. Why should the United States pay for most of it? I think people did not listen to why he threatened to pull out.

That false Trump has sanctioned Russia more than Obama
https://thehill.com/opinion/white-house/397212-president-trump-is-tougher-on-russia-in-18-months-than-obama-in-eight

You have to share info between two presidents of different countries. Its a private meeting between two heads of state. You not supposed to learn the details.

Just on the last point, while Joe Public isn't supposed to know the details, surely the government is?

Cheerful Spring

Deleted User wrote: »

Just on the last point, while Joe Public isn't supposed to know the details, surely the government is?

How do you know he did not share details with his administration? So, Bolton, Pompeo and others were not told anything? If that true that will come out eventually.

Leroy42

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

How do you know he did not share details with his administration? So, Bolton, Pompeo and others were not told anything? If that true that will come out eventually.

Well, we can't ever 'know' for sure, but what we can go on is the fact that he didn't share notes from the Helsinki meeting and so it is plausible that he would do so again.

Why to you think the security services would lie about something like that?

Quin_Dub

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

The Syrian war is over. There no point staying in Syria and wasting taxpayers money. What you what to happen next Russia fight the United States over Syria?

Over? .. I'm not sure many in Syria would agree with that viewpoint

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

Soviet Union invaded to protect the communist government from being overrun by The mujahideen starting in1979. Mujahideen was supported by the United States. Trump made a false claim they did so to stop terrorists attacking the Soviet Union. Trump does not know history it got very little to do with Putin. Trump claim is partially true Soviets spend a lot of money to fight this war in Afganistan and gained nothing from it in the end. I think thats the point Trump was trying to make?

But the point is that the ONLY other person to make that exact claim is Vladimir Putin.. So Where did Trump get his information?

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

Trump was asking why would we start WW3 over Montenegro. Valid question.

Again , why talk about Montenegro specifically?? , might it be because they've recently been trying to get NATO membership ,much to the annoyance of Putin..

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

Trump has asked Nato members to pay more for defence.. Why should the United States pay for most of it? I think people did not listen to why he threatened to pull out.

The money thing is a complete canard.. The United States DO NOT pay for anyone else , at all.. They happen to spend orders of magnitude more on defence than anyone else. Trump does not understand how NATO is funded , in the same way as he does not understand Trade deficits.

Everything that Trump has done/said about NATO has been designed to undermine it . And who benefits from a weakened NATO???

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

That false Trump has sanctioned Russia more than Obama
https://thehill.com/opinion/white-house/397212-president-trump-is-tougher-on-russia-in-18-months-than-obama-in-eight

No , Trump has not Congress has, and he has fought and delayed those sanctions repeatedly.

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

You don't have to share the info between two presidents of different countries. Its a private meeting between two heads of state. You not supposed to learn the details.

Trump claims to have nothing to do with Russia , but he keeps meeting with Putin unassisted with no notes so no one knows what was said..

Even if it's all been perfectly above board , the optics are appalling.

Manic Moran

As Cheerful said, Syria was a dead end. There were only going to be two likely outcomes given the situation he inherited: Assad wins, backed as he was by active Russian assistance and a decided “I don’t care about civilian casualties” attitude evidenced by both Syria and Russia (because it works), or the US would have had to seriously up the ante and its own involvement. Continuing as-is was not a winning move, only a holding pattern and resource-sink. Whilst I can understand the larger geopolitical reasons for staying and why Mattis resigned over the decision, it’s not as if there weren’t arguments at all for a US pull-out.

I don’t see how extorting NATO into nearly doubling its defense expenditure is something which fits Putin’s desires. The complaint about Europe relying on the US for defense and instead reaping economic benefit by spending the money elsewhere is long-standing, and justified. The Libya experience is a case in point. The European air forces started running out of bombs, and still required US support in reconnaissance, electronic warfare, and refuelling. If they couldn’t take on Libya, how on Earth would they take on a peer power? Trump was certainly blunt about it, but if his goal is to increase European military capability, that doesn’t seem like a Putin-approved move to me.

The drone thing is, indeed, a matter of technology. Not only are drones safer for pilots, but they have increased in capability to the point that using a drone is simply far better than using, say, an F-16. Typical targets are now within the payload capacity of drones like Reapers, they don’t need to truck around the entire bombload of an F-16 or need a jet’s survivability, and they are whole hell of a lot cheaper to run. The old Predators carried all of 300lbs of munitions, which basically limited them to small missiles. A Reaper can stay up for 14 hours, carries 3,750lbs of munitions, and they include a variety of types of bombs which, ten years ago, basically only manned jets could carry. And it does it all for somewhere under half the fuel requirements of an F-16, let alone fatigue costs, maintenance costs, support infrastructure costs...

Cheerful Spring

Leroy42 wrote: »

Well, we can't ever 'know' for sure, but what we can go on is the fact that he didn't share notes from the Helsinki meeting and so it is plausible that he would do so again.

Why to you think the security services would lie about something like that?

The anti trump media only wants the notes to attack Trump.

There no evidence Trump hide the notes from his administration. If he did and that info comes out then I accept his hiding info from his own government.

Leroy42

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

The anti trump media only wants the notes to attack Trump.

There no evidence Trump hide the notes from his administration. If he did and that info comes out then I accept his hiding info from his own government.

So know you think it is perfectly right for Trump to meet secretly with Putin and not divulge anything that he talks about to even his own country? Remember that even he mentioned that he openly talked about sending FBI agents over to be interviewed by Russian agents. And that is the part he told us about.

If he has done everything to protect the US,

Call Putin out over election interference
Call Putin out over trying to expand into non Russian Territories in the future etc
then what could the media use against him.

But you answer to avoid any questioning is secrecy? In a democracy you think that one man, and only one man, should be in charge of everything and be allowed to do whatever he wants?

Leroy42

Manic Moran wrote: »

I don’t see how extorting NATO into nearly doubling its defense expenditure is something which fits Putin’s desires. The complaint about Europe relying on the US for defense and instead reaping economic benefit by spending the money elsewhere is long-standing, and justified. The Libya experience is a case in point. The European air forces started running out of bombs, and still required US support in reconnaissance, electronic warfare, and refuelling. If they couldn’t take on Libya, how on Earth would they take on a peer power? Trump was certainly blunt about it, but if his goal is to increase European military capability, that doesn’t seem like a Putin-approved move to me.

Even Trump has said that he wants Europe to increase spending so that the US can reduce theirs (or to spend it elsewhere).

Now, who is the stronger military force and the greater threat to Putin? The combined might of the US military, the greatest and most expensive military in the world, or a group of separate countries all working off their own individual plans?

You don't need to be a great general to know which one anybody would prefer to face. So Trump is very much doing what suits Putin