Donald Trump presidency discussion thread V

Cheerful Spring

Quin_Dub wrote: »

Over? .. I'm not sure many in Syria would agree with that viewpoint



But the point is that the ONLY other person to make that exact claim is Vladimir Putin.. So Where did Trump get his information?




Again , why talk about Montenegro specifically?? , might it be because they've recently been trying to get NATO membership ,much to the annoyance of Putin..



The money thing is a complete canard.. The United States DO NOT pay for anyone else , at all.. They happen to spend orders of magnitude more on defence than anyone else. Trump does not understand how NATO is funded , in the same way as he does not understand Trade deficits.

Everything that Trump has done/said about NATO has been designed to undermine it . And who benefits from a weakened NATO???




No , Trump has not Congress has, and he has fought and delayed those sanctions repeatedly.




Trump claims to have nothing to do with Russia , but he keeps meeting with Putin unassisted with no notes so no one knows what was said..

Even if it's all been perfectly above board , the optics are appalling.

Assad has taken back the south of the country. There no resistance anymore to his rule in the South. The Kurds are not opposed to forming an alliance with Syria and Iran. Turkey has taken some lands in the North of Syria, but Assad is likely going to accept it and consolidate power in the regions he has gained back since the civil war started. Isis is no longer the threat they once had been the caliphate dream is over. The Syrian war is over, Assad won. It does not mean the fighting is going to end but Assad is going nowhere.

Putin made this claim can you provide a source, please.

You have to see it from their side too. Nato aim is to take on Russia militarily, you can't be naive to this. How far do we want to push it? If Russia asked Mexico to join some union like Nato what would happen? Would United States act militarily to prevent it?

Manic Moran answered the Nato question accurately.

Trump and his administration team announced the sanctions against Russia. Trump even boasted on Twitter about it.

Unknown if he told nobody in his administration about the meeting.

Leroy42

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

Unknown if he told nobody in his administration about the meeting.

Except that we know he has done it before. Why would you think people would be claiming that he hadn't?

Is this another conspiracy against Trump, even though he has form in this regard?

At what point do you start to question Trump?

Manic Moran

Leroy42 wrote: »

Even Trump has said that he wants Europe to increase spending so that the US can reduce theirs (or to spend it elsewhere).

Now, who is the stronger military force and the greater threat to Putin? The combined might of the US military, the greatest and most expensive military in the world, or a group of separate countries all working off their own individual plans?

You don't need to be a great general to know which one anybody would prefer to face. So Trump is very much doing what suits Putin

So regardless of anything that Putin may or may not want, you are saying that European defense should be the responsibility of the Americans because the Americans would be better at doing it alone than the Europeans would be at doing it together?

You don't see either a moral issue with this from the perspective of the Europeans, a practical issue with this because it relies on a single point of failure (What if the Americans decide to not get involved? Europe remains effectively undefended.) or a division of labor issue from the American perspective (Why are we paying for European defense?)

Combined forces can still be dangerous enough if properly equipped and trained, even if one discounts the some 70 years of NATO doctrinal training and refinement. It's quite possible that the increase in European capability overall may be greater than the effect of the loss of American permanent presence. Not that the Americans actually have a heck of a lot more they can pull out, these are no longer the days when the US had scores of active bases and numbers of divisions of troops based in Germany. This is, of course, separate to the larger moral questions above.

Leroy42

You are moving the goalposts.

You were trying to argue that Trump arguing for increased European spending on Nato, and the threat to withdraw from NATO, was actually a bad thing for Russia.

I was pointing at that it isn't really. It is exactly what I would want if I was Putin. i would much more fancy my chances against a clearly anti-war EU, which has no unified defence approach, as opposed to facing the US military.

Come on, you are a military man. Which option do you think carries the greater risk to Putin?

Whether in the long run Europe can get back to the standard is not relevant to this discussion. Putin is looking for instability now.

Christy42

This is a man who took Putin's word over every relevant intelligence agency in his own country and quote a few of his allies intelligence agencies. He even declared "his people" would have evidence in a few weeks of Russian innocence (spoiler: they have yet to produce and it is coming up to 2 years since he promised this).

Trump fought tooth and nail against Russian sanctions. Sure he likes to brag against his toughness against Russia but really congress has forced his hand i n this regard.

With regards to Venezuela and Iran I doubt Putin has that strong of an opinion on either. If anything it drove Iran further away from a Western sphere of influence though it seems more likely to me it is simply an action Trump undertook himself out of sheer idiocy. Sanctions and division amongst the western allies seems more important to Putin.

He was absolutely undermining NATO. Here we had an impressive combination of some posters praising him for increasing NATO's strength by imploring Europe to spend more and other posters praising him for starting the destruction of this corrupt (as they saw it) organization.

The drone thing is presumably tech related.

MadYaker

I don't think Putin wants to annex Europe. He might have a go at Ukraine though if NATO really did back off. I don't think the EU would care enough about it to do anyting other than condemn it. It's a bit much for Trump to be saying he wants to pull back from NATO to ease military spending after giving them the largest budget ever(?) of 750 billion.

aloyisious

Manic Moran wrote: »

As Cheerful said, Syria was a dead end. There were only going to be two likely outcomes given the situation he inherited: Assad wins, backed as he was by active Russian assistance and a decided “I don’t care about civilian casualties” attitude evidenced by both Syria and Russia (because it works), or the US would have had to seriously up the ante and its own involvement. Continuing as-is was not a winning move, only a holding pattern and resource-sink. Whilst I can understand the larger geopolitical reasons for staying and why Mattis resigned over the decision, it’s not as if there weren’t arguments at all for a US pull-out.

I don’t see how extorting NATO into nearly doubling its defense expenditure is something which fits Putin’s desires. The complaint about Europe relying on the US for defense and instead reaping economic benefit by spending the money elsewhere is long-standing, and justified. The Libya experience is a case in point. The European air forces started running out of bombs, and still required US support in reconnaissance, electronic warfare, and refuelling. If they couldn’t take on Libya, how on Earth would they take on a peer power? Trump was certainly blunt about it, but if his goal is to increase European military capability, that doesn’t seem like a Putin-approved move to me.

The drone thing is, indeed, a matter of technology. Not only are drones safer for pilots, but they have increased in capability to the point that using a drone is simply far better than using, say, an F-16. Typical targets are now within the payload capacity of drones like Reapers, they don’t need to truck around the entire bombload of an F-16 or need a jet’s survivability, and they are whole hell of a lot cheaper to run. The old Predators carried all of 300lbs of munitions, which basically limited them to small missiles. A Reaper can stay up for 14 hours, carries 3,750lbs of munitions, and they include a variety of types of bombs which, ten years ago, basically only manned jets could carry. And it does it all for somewhere under half the fuel requirements of an F-16, let alone fatigue costs, maintenance costs, support infrastructure costs...

Would it not suit Putin to have Trump say "I can't get a good deal from Europe/NATO on military spending therefore I am cutting ties with Europe/NATO" and have Trump go isolationist, pulling US forces and materiel back home [except for forward stocks in the US Mid-East partners lands]. I'm not sure Trump would be allowed by his own backroom hawks and backers, though he might be persuaded by some that the savings from a "peace" dividend might be tempting to one who didn't forward plan or no interest about the concept of forward planning for the US.

@MADyaker and M/M: I'm assuming that [like over here] ammo has a limited life shelf and MUST be expended by then for safety reasons, with new supplies obtained. Ditto for P.O.L for vehicles. Ditto for vehicles, aircraft & ships, clothing and tentage. A large part of the budget would be used on that

I have in mind the way the Irish Defence forces bought NBC suits several decades ago and then stored them in Clancy Bks [for use when needed] where they literally rotted away on shelves before anyone realised they needed better housing.

everlast75

Trump is insulting HIS OWN people (remember - the best people?) In the intelligence agencies on the world stage. He called them naive. He told them to go back to school. That has never happened before.

That undermines their ability to do their job.

Coates was asked in front of congress if Trump not disclosing the info about his meetings with Russia compromised their ability to defend the country. He declined to answer in public. What does that tell you? It tells you the answer is "yes".

Either putin is pulling the strings here or Trump is that bull headed and pig ignorant he thinks thousands of people working in the communities are wrong. Either scenario is not pleasant.

I don't understand his supporters' confidence in him. He is demonstrably a fraud. He's not a self made billionaire, he is not a financial genius, he is a tax cheat, he has failed to halve the deficit in 6 months (as he said he would), he has awful business acumen and morals and his ignorance is on show every day for people to see.

Why do people trust him more than experienced, educated professionals with whom he cannot agree? What on earth has he done to earn that trust?

Cheerful Spring

everlast75 wrote: »

Trump is insulting HIS OWN people (remember - the best people?) In the intelligence agencies on the world stage. He called them naive. He told them to go back to school. That has never happened before.

That undermines their ability to do their job.

Coates was asked in front of congress if Trump not disclosing the info about his meetings with Russia compromised their ability to defend the country. He declined to answer in public. What does that tell you? It tells you the answer is "yes".

Either putin is pulling the strings here or Trump is that bull headed and pig ignorant he thinks thousands of people working in the communities are wrong. Either scenario is not pleasant.

I don't understand his supporters' confidence in him. He is demonstrably a fraud. He's not a self made billionaire, he is not a financial genius, he is a tax cheat, he has failed to halve the deficit in 6 months (as he said he would), he has awful business acumen and morals and his ignorance is on show every day for people to see.

Why do people trust him more than experienced, educated professionals with whom he cannot agree? What on earth has he done to earn that trust?

Who would you like to be President? If Trump was replaced you get Mike Pence. Are you hoping he replaces Trump? Who your favourite for the Democratic nomination?

You may hate Putin, but he Kept Russia from falling apart. People forget the country was a mess after the fall of the Soviet Union. Do you really want some nutter taking charge in Russia with nukes? The Americans do not think about who the next leader of Russia could be. Putin is not going to last forever. Russia leaders since the Bolshevik revolution are all hardliners for the most part.

aloyisious

everlast75 wrote: »

Trump is insulting HIS OWN people (remember - the best people?) In the intelligence agencies on the world stage. He called them naive. He told them to go back to school. That has never happened before.

That undermines their ability to do their job.

Coates was asked in front of congress if Trump not disclosing the info about his meetings with Russia compromised their ability to defend the country. He declined to answer in public. What does that tell you? It tells you the answer is "yes".

Either putin is pulling the strings here or Trump is that bull headed and pig ignorant he thinks thousands of people working in the communities are wrong. Either scenario is not pleasant.

I don't understand his supporters' confidence in him. He is demonstrably a fraud. He's not a self made billionaire, he is not a financial genius, he is a tax cheat, he has failed to halve the deficit in 6 months (as he said he would), he has awful business acumen and morals and his ignorance is on show every day for people to see.

Why do people trust him more than experienced, educated professionals with whom he cannot agree? What on earth has he done to earn that trust?

Not sure if by now it's Stockholm syndrome or "tell a lie often enough" Joseph Goebbels style from his business past. I'm mindful that the US is not like a private business where he doesn't have to answer to the stockholders. I'm assuming that as his hotel business is a family business, he doesn't worry about stockholders and can go bankrupt at will.

everlast75

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

Who would you like to be President? If Trump was replaced you get Mike Pence. Are you hoping he replaces Trump? Who your favourite for the Democratic nomination?

You may hate Putin, but he Kept Russia from falling apart. People forget the country was a mess after the fall of the Soviet Union. Do you really want some nutter taking charge in Russia with nukes? The Americans do not think about who the next leader of Russia could be. Putin is not going to last forever. Russia leaders since the Bolshevik revolution are all hardliners for the most part.

I'd like a competent Politician who respects the traditions of the Office, who was validly elected and frankly who is not a complete and utter conman.

As for Putin, you can take your appreciation of him elsewhere. I'm not buying. He is a ruthless dictator who would have no qualms about throwing you or anyone else to your death. How about allowing the people of russia vote their leader - you know, what Putin refuses to do leading to him being in charge for 20 years, with his political opponents thrown in jail or worse.

Look up Sergei Magnitsky.

aloyisious

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

You may hate Putin, but he Kept Russia from falling apart. People forget the country was a mess after the fall of the Soviet Union. Do you really want some nutter taking charge in Russia with nukes?

Ah, Boris Yeltsin.

batgoat

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

Who would you like to be President? If Trump was replaced you get Mike Pence. Are you hoping he replaces Trump? Who your favourite for the Democratic nomination?

You may hate Putin, but he Kept Russia from falling apart. People forget the country was a mess after the fall of the Soviet Union. Do you really want some nutter taking charge in Russia with nukes? The Americans do not think about who the next leader of Russia could be. Putin is not going to last forever. Russia leaders since the Bolshevik revolution are all hardliners for the most part.

Just gotta ignore all those domestic assassinations of both politicians and journalists. Annexing of Crimea, anti-gay laws and assassinations attempts in the UK which included nuclear material in one instance. Creating a load of corrupt Billionaire Oligarchs by selling off state oil is great for the people too. Then all election interference which wasn't limited to the US. Putin may be a successful leader but he is bad for plenty of people in Russia who have their human rights violated and he's not particularly good for anyone in the West.

Cheerful Spring

aloyisious wrote: »

Ah, Boris Yeltsin.

Quote from his bio.
Much of the Yeltsin era was marked by widespread corruption, and as a result of persistent low oil and commodity prices during the 1990s, Russia suffered inflation and economic collapse. Within a few years of his presidency, many of Yeltsin's initial supporters had started to criticize his leadership.

On 31 December 1999, under enormous internal pressure, Yeltsin announced his resignation, leaving the presidency in the hands of his chosen successor, then-Prime Minister Vladimir Putin. Yeltsin left office widely unpopular with the Russian population

Cheerful Spring

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

Who would you like to be President? If Trump was replaced you get Mike Pence. Are you hoping he replaces Trump? Who your favourite for the Democratic nomination?

You may hate Putin, but he Kept Russia from falling apart. People forget the country was a mess after the fall of the Soviet Union. Do you really want some nutter taking charge in Russia with nukes? The Americans do not think about who the next leader of Russia could be. Putin is not going to last forever. Russia leaders since the Bolshevik revolution are all hardliners for the most part.

This should be the dictionary definition of what-aboutery.

aloyisious

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

Quote from his bio.
Much of the Yeltsin era was marked by widespread corruption, and as a result of persistent low oil and commodity prices during the 1990s, Russia suffered inflation and economic collapse. Within a few years of his presidency, many of Yeltsin's initial supporters had started to criticize his leadership.

On 31 December 1999, under enormous internal pressure, Yeltsin announced his resignation, leaving the presidency in the hands of his chosen successor, then-Prime Minister Vladimir Putin. Yeltsin left office widely unpopular with the Russian population

I like the way you refer to Boris as being the one who made the "chosen successor" choice.

jobbridge4life

Manic Moran wrote: »

I don’t see how extorting NATO into nearly doubling its defense expenditure is something which fits Putin’s desires. The complaint about Europe relying on the US for defense and instead reaping economic benefit by spending the money elsewhere is long-standing, and justified. The Libya experience is a case in point. The European air forces started running out of bombs, and still required US support in reconnaissance, electronic warfare, and refuelling. If they couldn’t take on Libya, how on Earth would they take on a peer power? Trump was certainly blunt about it, but if his goal is to increase European military capability, that doesn’t seem like a Putin-approved move to me.

Donald Trump's ambition is to leave NATO. We know this from:
- his own words;
- his own actions; and,
- reporting indicating that he is still regularly pursuing this.
The only actions that Trump has taken, are those that undermine faith in NATO. The reaction of European leaders, in terms of increasing their defence spending are their own. Has Trump now recommitted to NATO? Has he gone out of his way to reinforce the alliance?
Putin’s work was done the moment Trump began undermining confidence in the alliance. That confidence, the principle has been undone. It is incredibly obvious if one follows the words, and actions of European leaders since.

Cheerful Spring

everlast75 wrote: »

I'd like a competent Politician who respects the traditions of the Office, who was validly elected and frankly who is not a complete and utter conman.

As for Putin, you can take your appreciation of him elsewhere. I'm not buying. He is a ruthless dictator who would have no qualms about throwing you or anyone else to your death. How about allowing the people of russia vote their leader - you know, what Putin refuses to do leading to him being in charge for 20 years, with his political opponents thrown in jail or worse.

Look up Sergei Magnitsky.

Was Nixon, Bushes, Clinton not conman?

The Syrian war happened on Obama watch and he made it worse. Remember Obama stood by and watched Isis takeover Mosul and take over Iraqi cities. Obama was making jokes how unimportant they were prior to this. Ukraine coup took place when Obama was in power and he did stop the Crimea takeover. Obama had his own illegal war in attacking Libya.

Of course if America attacks another country is bringing freedom and justice.

Putin gets involved in a coup when there fascist takeover in Ukraine, his evil. Never mind it documented the US meddled in the affairs of Ukraine and pushed for the coup.

Quin_Dub

Christy42 wrote: »

With regards to Venezuela and Iran I doubt Putin has that strong of an opinion on either. If anything it drove Iran further away from a Western sphere of influence though it seems more likely to me it is simply an action Trump undertook himself out of sheer idiocy. Sanctions and division amongst the western allies seems more important to Putin.

There is a simple answer to Trumps behaviour regarding Iran and Venezuela.

For Iran , it's all about Obama , the Iran deal was Obamas signature Foreign policy item , so Trump has to blow it up because he hates Obama. There's nothing deeper to it than that..

For Venezuela , it's a distraction for his current woes - In his mind it's a low risk "global thing" that he can stick his oar into and it feeds into his narrative with his base - " Don't let them socialist Democrats take over or we'll end up like Venezuela".

Just like everything else he does , it's all about him in the end.

Cheerful Spring

Quin_Dub wrote: »

There is a simple answer to Trumps behaviour regarding Iran and Venezuela.

For Iran , it's all about Obama , the Iran deal was Obamas signature Foreign policy item , so Trump has to blow it up because he hates Obama. There's nothing deeper to it than that..

For Venezuela , it's a distraction for his current woes - In his mind it's a low risk "global thing" that he can stick his oar into and it feeds into his narrative with his base - " Don't let them socialist Democrats take over or we'll end up like Venezuela".

Just like everything else he does , it's all about him in the end.

Not true. Kushner family have longstanding ties to the Isreali government. Trump main donors are Isreali. Trump hatred for Iran has a lot to do with Israel. You even saw that special relationship when he recognised Jerusalem as the capital of Israel.

Venezuela is a socialist country that allied with China and Russia. Plus they are sitting on number 1 oil reserves in the world ahead of Saudi Arabia. It's a Cuba 2.0

everlast75

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

Was Nixon, Bushes, Clinton not con men

Literal whataboutery.

They were legitimately elected.

They didn't spout 8500+ lies in two years.

Did you look up Magnitski?

You haven't answered my question as to what Trump did to earn your trust, bearing in mind his history.

everlast75

This is a nicely timed article...

https://hillreporter.com/msnbc-host-lists-ways-trump-has-sided-with-russia-and-its-a-long-list-22965

mcmoustache

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

Not true. Kushner family have longstanding ties to the Isreali government. Trump main donors are Isreali. Trump hatred for Iran has a lot to do with Israel. You even saw that special relationship when he recognised Jerusalem as the capital of Israel.

You're mostly correct here. I suspect that Trump's stance against Iran is encouraged by Bibi.

borderlinemeath

everlast75 wrote: »

Literal whataboutery.

They were legitimately elected.

They didn't spout 8500+ lies in two years.

Did you look up Magnitski?

You haven't answered my question as to what Trump did to earn your trust, bearing in mind his history.

Does Cheerful ever answer difficult questions?


I asked him last week why he was so happy to hitch his wagon to Trump when he was surrounded by criminals, when he was either happy to be associated with their corruption, or too stupid to see their corruption. I'm still waiting on that difficult answer.

Cheerful Spring

everlast75 wrote: »

Literal whataboutery.

They were legitimately elected.

They didn't spout 8500+ lies in two years.

Did you look up Magnitski?

You haven't answered my question as to what Trump did to earn your trust, bearing in mind his history.

Putin and Trump were elected legitimately.

Magnitsky alleged there had been large-scale theft from the Russian state, sanctioned and carried out by Russian officials.

Do you blame every murder on Putin? Someone else with a grudge could have had him killed.

I not a fan of Trump, I think he is a compulsive liar and is a racist. I don't like his foreign policy on Iran, Saudi Arabia and Venezuela. He doing an ok job on North Korea. Kim will never give up his nukes, but it better than fighting a war that will cost millions of lives. I don't like his cosy relationship with Israel. His border policy makes sense illegal immigration needs to be curtailed. Trump and the way he talks about foreigners do not help his cause, there a racist overtone to how he views people from countries like Mexico. His economic policy I don't live in the United States so can't say how good his policies are for the average person, wages and living standards.

I thought Trump would be a disaster, but his doing an ok not a great job. I think the Russian collusion is a red herring. I have seen nothing that shows Putin and Trump undermined American democracy, that is the both of them worked together in secret to beat Hillary.

Did the Russian state try to undermine Hilary? Maybe, through social media? I still think Trump convinced voters to vote for him by doing the legwork campaigning and through debating. The media also talked about Trump nonstop that gave him so much air time.

Gatling

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

Putin gets involved in a coup when there fascist takeover in Ukraine, his evil. Never mind it documented the US meddled in the affairs of Ukraine and pushed for the coup.

That's not true , Putin illegally occupied and annexed parts of Ukraine because Ukrainians wanted to choose their own sovereign states choices for closer ties to the EU and the west ,
Facists didn't take over Ukrainians decided they were Ukrainian and not russian .

Cheerful Spring

Gatling wrote: »

That's not true , Putin illegally occupied and annexed parts of Ukraine because Ukrainians wanted to choose their own sovereign states choices for closer ties to the EU and the west ,
Facists didn't take over Ukrainians decided they were Ukrainian and not russian .

Crimea decided to break away from Ukraine after the coup. The majority of the people living there wanted to rejoin the Russian Federation. The Azov was then preparing to go there to stop that from happening. Then the little green men showed up and Russia then held elections and majority voted to rejoin Russia.

Kiev and the North of Ukraine wanted closer ties with the EU.

Gatling

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

Crimea decided to break away from Ukraine after the coup. The majority of the people living there wanted to rejoin the Russian Federation. The Azov was then preparing to go there to stop that from happening.

That's all lies and well and truly debunked pro putin propaganda

prawnsambo

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

Crimea decided to break away from Ukraine after the coup. The majority of the people living there wanted to rejoin the Russian Federation. The Azov was then preparing to go there to stop that from happening. Then the little green men showed up and Russia then held elections and majority voted to rejoin Russia.

Kiev and the North of Ukraine wanted closer ties with the EU.

If I want to read Russian trolls I can do that on Twitter. This is laughable stuff. Are you going to tell us about the Russian soldiers on holiday now?

jochenstacker

Accordion to Trump the wall is being built as we speak.

https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/1090963161942032385?s=20