Donald Trump presidency discussion thread V

Eric Cartman

everlast75 wrote: »

One is illegal.

One is not I would guess...

Why is the russian one illegal, what countries are PR firms allowed from and what countries are they illegal from ? if I put a load of russians who are US citizens at desks in california is that alright ? if I use a british company is that alright ? If I use americans at desks in Russia is that alright ?

Eric Cartman

everlast75 wrote: »

Trump's team, that he hired (the best people)?

And if that didn't make him culpable alone, all this was done, without him knowing? Need I remind you of what was said on camera?
"Russia, if you're listening.."

well, clearly.

please do remind me, remind me of the exact moment where he told the world that he paid russians to do this ?

weisses

Eric Cartman wrote: »

you cant fart in moscow without the kremlin approving of it , this is one of the problems with russia. This is why they had to meet with the Russian government to try get a trump tower built there. Im in no way excusing the mudslinging low brow way that america does politics full stop , but we're still talking about posting internet ads and fake profiles here, that is the limit of the interference.

If he did this with a US company would you be completely alright with it ? , can you explain to me what material difference there is between paying a US company for propaganda targeting US citizens and paying a russian company for propaganda targeting US citizens is ? Same tactic, same intended outcome.

Its naive to think its only a private Russian company that got involved ... That is the crux of the matter here

everlast75

Eric Cartman wrote: »

Why is the russian one illegal, what countries are PR firms allowed from and what countries are they illegal from ? if I put a load of russians who are US citizens at desks in california is that alright ? if I use a british company is that alright ? If I use americans at desks in Russia is that alright ?

You just said that you can't fart in Moscow without Putin knowing about it.

Therefore companies cannot operate without Putin knowing about it.

The next step is that Trump et al, by working with Russian contacts (again tied to Putin) means that he worked with a foreign adversary to interfere with a national election. We are talking voter suppression, social media targeting of groups, bots, misinformation etc.

If only there was some word for that, beginning with "C"...

Eric Cartman

weisses wrote: »

Its naive to think its only a private Russian company that got involved ... That is the crux of the matter here

So , just stop me if im wrong here,

is the crux of the matter nothing to do with it being a Russian PR firm but it being a PR firm owned by the Russian Government, if it turned out tomorrow that we had concrete proof that the Russian government involvement stopped at the permits for the building and tax collection , would you be happy to admit that its on the same level as what candidates in previous US elections and what HC also did (albeit the companies she used were not Russian).

is this entire investigation hinged on who owns and controls the PR firm and proving that A) its government controlled and that Trump himself knew that

Eric Cartman

everlast75 wrote: »

You just said that you can't fart in Moscow without Putin knowing about it.

Therefore companies cannot operate without Putin knowing about it.

The next step is that Trump et al, by working with Russian contacts (again tied to Putin) means that he worked with a foreign adversary to interfere with a national election. We are talking voter suppression, social media targeting of groups, bots, misinformation etc.

If only there was some word for that, beginning with "C"...

I accept all the rest, its what PR companies do for politicians. Can you explain the suppression to me, and how this was achieved from another continent.

BabyCheeses

Eric Cartman wrote: »

Nah mate sorry, this is the politics forum where you either completely loved Hillary or you were personally behind the wheel of the car in charlottesville chanting build the wall. Any slight deviation from 'orange man bad' here automatically has you supporting the klan. If you even slightly try say that one executive order, conference, statement, policy etc wasnt completely evil or racist then you'll have infinite posts coming back saying 'so since your a trump fanatic you must support this thing he supposedly said 30 years ago according to a news site that was set up 2 weeks before the election'

Two years on and the Trump supporters still think their devotion to Trump is normal and everyone feels the same way towards their chosen politician.

Eric Cartman

BabyCheeses wrote: »

Two years on and the Trump supporters still think their devotion to Trump is normal and everyone feels the same way towards their chosen politician.

I dont think this forum has really had many trump supporters.

jochenstacker

Den14 wrote: »

This thread reminds me of 1960's Batman. Tune in next week to hear how Trumpman finds himself in serious impeaching jeopardy only for him to eventually last minute escape the latest accusations made by the evil bunch of joker's called the Democrats.
Same Trump time same Trump channel

It's pretty clear that Trump is the Joker.

Midlife

Eric Cartman wrote: »

you cant fart in moscow without the kremlin approving of it , this is one of the problems with russia. This is why they had to meet with the Russian government to try get a trump tower built there. Im in no way excusing the mudslinging low brow way that america does politics full stop , but we're still talking about posting internet ads and fake profiles here, that is the limit of the interference.

If he did this with a US company would you be completely alright with it ? , can you explain to me what material difference there is between paying a US company for propaganda targeting US citizens and paying a russian company for propaganda targeting US citizens is ? Same tactic, same intended outcome.

You kind of answered your own question there when you said 'you can't fart in Russia without the Kremlin knowing about it'. So it's very probable the Kremlin would have known about the Russia PR.

I don't give a crap to be honest. I'm not sure being a paid shill for Russia is worse than being a paid shill for the NRA, but obviously they're going to make a big deal about it stateside.

Then there's the using the presidency to line his own pockets. That's kind of worse for me.

I mean at this stage it's very hard not to come to the conclusion that Trump Tower Moscow afected the way he approached Russian/US relations. Then the dumbass lied about it.

everlast75

Eric Cartman wrote: »

I accept all the rest, its what PR companies do for politicians. Can you explain the suppression to me, and how this was achieved from another continent.

You can google and you'll find dozens of articles explaining it all in great detail.

So now that you've accepted it, combine it with the targeted release of the emails for maximum advantage in conjunction with a hostile country, the hush money payments again at a time strategic to the election, you should come to the conclusion that this election was illegally interfered with, pure and simple.

Ultros

Midlife wrote: »

Then there's the using the presidency to line his own pockets. That's kind of worse for me.

Yeah. There's mountains of evidence Democrats have been selling out the US to China for decades for personal gain, not to mention what the Clinton's have used the office for during their political careers. It's only a problem for certain people now because it's Trump in office. It's pure hypocrisy, simple as that. Democrats are EXCELLENT at projection, it's their most valuable political asset. It's admirable in a twisted, corrupt sort of way. 99% of politicians in Washington are in it for the money, not just Washington but worldwide. You'll find the few who aren't ( Cortez, Gabbard ) etc are now being hit hard by establishment media because the corporations and establishment class are one of the same. Last thing I read is Gabbard is in bed with Russia - predictable really. It's the same reason Sanders was slaughtered or Ron Paul.

The establishment Republicans and Democrats are on the same team, most of what goes on is purely theatre and a fight to hold onto power.

https://www.businessinsider.com/ap-profiting-off-presidency-trump-biz-takes-hit-since-election-2018-12?r=US&IR=T

"Nearly two years since Donald Trump took office, signs are mounting the presidency has hit his company hard."

everlast75

Ultros wrote: »

Yeah. There's mountains of evidence Democrats have been selling out the US to China for decades for personal gain, not to mention what the Clinton's have used the office for during their political careers. It's only a problem for certain people now because it's Trump in office. It's pure hypocrisy, simple as that. Democrats are EXCELLENT at projection, it's their most valuable political asset. It's admirable in a twisted, corrupt sort of way. 99% of politicians in Washington are in it for the money, not just Washington but worldwide. You'll find the few who aren't ( Cortez, Gabbard ) etc are now being hit hard by establishment media because the corporations and establishment class are one of the same. Last thing I read is Gabbard is in bed with Russia - predictable really. It's the same reason Sanders was slaughtered or Ron Paul.

https://www.businessinsider.com/ap-profiting-off-presidency-trump-biz-takes-hit-since-election-2018-12?r=US&IR=T

"Nearly two years since Donald Trump took office, signs are mounting the presidency has hit his company hard."

Well charge the Democrats then!

That's the difference. Trump supporters think its okay because they think other people have done it. Right thinking individuals think all who break the law should be locked up, Republican or Democrat.

The Starr investigation lifted every stone on Clinton and found zero financial corruption.

He was impeached on what they found.

Trump tried to line his own pockets. He was such an idiot he put himself in a position where he was open to blackmail as he tried to deny it. That's what I believe- he's a victim of his own stupidity and greed.

But no- according to you Trump is the victim here. Ironic really - the hard man, the master negotiator, Mr Drain the Swamp...

Ultros

everlast75 wrote: »

Trump tried to line his own pockets. He was such an idiot he put himself in a position where he was open to blackmail as he tried to deny it. That's what I believe- he's a victim of his own stupidity and greed.

But no- according to you Trump is the victim here. Ironic really - the hard man, the master negotiator, Mr Drain the Swamp...

I didn't say Trump is a victim, don't put words in my mouth or twist what I say or exaggerate it with silliness using wordplay. I posted an AP link that says his Business revenue is way down since he became President (Trump org).

everlast75

Ultros wrote: »

I didn't say Trump is a victim, don't put words in my mouth or twist what I say or exaggerate it with silliness using wordplay. I posted an AP link that says his Business revenue is way down since he became President (Trump org).

You said everyone was at it and its only a problem now that Trump is doing it. That's saying he's a victim. Deny it if you want but thats the thrust of your point.

Secondly, let's see his tax returns and see whether he has profited in other ways, such as Russian money in his golf courses, massive loans from deutsche bank, saudi money into his hotel in DC etc. The emolument cases will flush all this out.

It's naive to think Donald J Trump became president at his own personal expense to save the US from itself. Pure and utter nonsense. He is a grifter, a snake oil salesman, and its all starting to unravel.

His corruption and greed are now the focus of the SDNY, and they won't leave a screed of meat on his bones.

Ultros

everlast75 wrote: »

You said everyone was at it and its only a problem now that Trump is doing it. That's saying he's a victim. Deny it if you want but thats the thrust of your point.

No, the "thrust" of my point is the hypocrisy, like I've already stated.

It's naive to think Donald J Trump became president at his own personal expense to save the US from itself. Pure and utter nonsense.

Again, putting words in my mouth.

everlast75

Ultros wrote: »

No, the "thrust" of my point is the hypocrisy, like I've already said.

Okay.

So what the Dems did was wrong.
What the Reps did was wrong.

So.... do you agree what Trump did was wrong?

And if as a result of the Dems and Reps doing wrong, they should be punished?

Do you agree Trump should be punished?

Christy42

Providing services could be seen as paying off a politician (or "donating") if not done at a clear market rate that all sides can avail of.

Obviously companies donate to ensure a candidate gets in and puts through policies they approve of.

That is the issue of a foreign government working with a specific campaign. You can no longer trust that candidate to work in the best interest of the US instead of the foreign government that helps them get elected.

Could you say the same for companies? Yes but the Supreme court has ensured that it is legal so that needs to be overturned first (single big donars should be shut down IMO as it is just buying a candidate). That seems unlikely but the foreign government one is still illegal AFAIK.

Gbear

everlast75 wrote: »

Secondly, let's see his tax returns and see whether he has profited in other ways, such as Russian money in his golf courses, massive loans from deutsche bank, saudi money into his hotel in DC etc. The emolument cases will flush all this out.

Or via pay to play by funneling lobbyists, executives, diplomats and world leaders into his hotels in Mar-A-Lago and DC.

These visits highlight a stark reality in Washington, unprecedented in modern American history. Trump the president works at 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue. Trump the businessman owns a hotel at 1100 Pennsylvania.

Countries, interest groups and companies like T-Mobile — whose future will be shaped by the administration’s choices — are free to stop at both and pay the president’s company while also meeting with officials in his government. Such visits raise questions about whether patronizing Trump’s private business is viewed as a way to influence public policy, critics said

Sweetemotion

everlast75 wrote: »

Okay.

So what the Dems did was wrong.
What the Reps did was wrong.

So.... do you agree what Trump did was wrong?

And if as a result of the Dems and Reps doing wrong, they should be punished?

Do you agree Trump should be punished?

I have never seen a post with so much effort to try and put words in another posters mouth.

weisses

Eric Cartman wrote: »

is this entire investigation hinged on who owns and controls the PR firm and proving that A) its government controlled and that Trump himself knew that

Uhh no ...An you probably know that yourself as well

weisses

Sweetemotion wrote: »

I have never seen a post with so much effort to try and put words in another posters mouth.

According to you Both dems and reps are hypocrites right ?

seamus

Another twist today, for those who haven't seen it.

The National Enquirer, a tabloid paper, supporter of Trump since the start and publisher of suspiciously-sourced information, has been on a bit of a witch hunt against Jeff Bezos of late.

For those who don't know, Bezos is the founder of Amazon, is literally the wealthiest man on the planet. He recently divorced his wife, and he personally owns the Washington Post (i.e. it's not a subsidiary of Amazon).

The WP has been fairly consistently critical of Trump, and the Enquirer has sicced its columnists on Bezos, publishing illegally-obtained private messages of Bezos's, in what looks suspiciously like a Trump-directed revenge campaign.

So Bezos hired one of the best investigators in the US, gave him a blank cheque and asked him to look into the matter. The investigation is expected to reveal that the NE's reporting is basically a Trump mouthpiece.

So the National Enquirer sent Bezos a letter claiming to be in possession of a number of photographs proving that Bezos was having an affair before his divorce, and demanding that Bezos and his investigator release a statement saying that they “have no knowledge or basis for suggesting that AMI’s coverage was politically motivated or influenced by political forces.”

We know all this because Bezos called their bluff and published the extortion threat himself:
https://medium.com/@jeffreypbezos/no-thank-you-mr-pecker-146e3922310f

Pretty much guaranteed now that whatever the National Enquirer didn't want published, will be both published and scrutinised even worse than it was before. Which is bad news for Trump if he's been using the free press as political propaganda.

oscarBravo

seamus wrote: »

Pretty much guaranteed now that whatever the National Enquirer didn't want published, will be both published and scrutinised even worse than it was before. Which is bad news for Trump if he's been using the free press as political propaganda.

It's also bad news for the NE if they're found to have committed a crime, because their plea deal is contingent on them not breaking the law.

Igotadose

seamus wrote: »

So Bezos hired one of the best investigators in the US, gave him a blank cheque and asked him to look into the matter. The investigation is expected to reveal that the NE's reporting is basically a Trump mouthpiece.

Pretty much guaranteed now that whatever the National Enquirer didn't want published, will be both published and scrutinised even worse than it was before. Which is bad news for Trump if he's been using the free press as political propaganda.

The investigation is by Gavin DeBecker.
Gavin DeBecker is Bezos's head of security. He's the author of Thee Gift of Fear
https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/s/ref=nb_sb_ss_i_0_9?k=the+gift+of+fear&sprefix=the+gift+&crid=34IHQSOF7O5WU

And is someone widely regarded as the best security consultant there is. Mrs Igotadose strongly recommends his book to women, DeBecker really gets women's safety challenges and offers good suggestions on how to cope.

everlast75

seamus wrote: »

Another twist today, for those who haven't seen it.

The National Enquirer, a tabloid paper, supporter of Trump since the start and publisher of suspiciously-sourced information, has been on a bit of a witch hunt against Jeff Bezos of late.

For those who don't know, Bezos is the founder of Amazon, is literally the wealthiest man on the planet. He recently divorced his wife, and he personally owns the Washington Post (i.e. it's not a subsidiary of Amazon).

The WP has been fairly consistently critical of Trump, and the Enquirer has sicced its columnists on Bezos, publishing illegally-obtained private messages of Bezos's, in what looks suspiciously like a Trump-directed revenge campaign.

So Bezos hired one of the best investigators in the US, gave him a blank cheque and asked him to look into the matter. The investigation is expected to reveal that the NE's reporting is basically a Trump mouthpiece.

So the National Enquirer sent Bezos a letter claiming to be in possession of a number of photographs proving that Bezos was having an affair before his divorce, and demanding that Bezos and his investigator release a statement saying that they “have no knowledge or basis for suggesting that AMI’s coverage was politically motivated or influenced by political forces.”

We know all this because Bezos called their bluff and published the extortion threat himself:
https://medium.com/@jeffreypbezos/no-thank-you-mr-pecker-146e3922310f

Pretty much guaranteed now that whatever the National Enquirer didn't want published, will be both published and scrutinised even worse than it was before. Which is bad news for Trump if he's been using the free press as political propaganda.

Covered very well indeed by Maddow last night, including an unexpected Saudi Arabia angle involving MBS, The Enquirer, Jamal Khashoggi and the Washington Post.

everlast75

oscarBravo wrote: »

It's also bad news for the NE if they're found to have committed a crime, because their plea deal is contingent on them not breaking the law.

Remember too that as part of their plea agreement, they have confessed to everything nefarious and now they have opened themselves up to not just crimes which they may have committed, but crimes that they have admitted to doing

Penn

From what I've read, it may not count as blackmail/extortion in the criminal sense, because no money or property was proposed to change hands. It was a case of "You say this and we won't say this".

So AMI may be able to dodge criminal charges on that, but depending on how they obtained the photos etc they may still be in a lot of bother.

everlast75

Penn wrote: »

From what I've read, it may not count as blackmail/extortion in the criminal sense, because no money or property was proposed to change hands. It was a case of "You say this and we won't say this".

So AMI may be able to dodge criminal charges on that, but depending on how they obtained the photos etc they may still be in a lot of bother.

There are rumours that the texts were obtained via a government agency.
If Trump was involved (as he very much has an interest in destroying Bezos) he may have used the resources he has and being honest, I don't doubt for a moment that Trump wouldn't help if he could. Remember last May when he asked the postal service to double their charge to Amazon to deliver?

everlast75

Whitaker appearing now.

https://twitter.com/tedlieu/status/1093885801421815808