Donald Trump presidency discussion thread V

Quin_Dub

Eric Cartman wrote: »

Remove all taxation on new green vehicles, remove the ability to block new nuclear power plants in rural areas, tax the use of certain hormones and drugs on animals and encourage organic farming through tax breaks , openly condemn asia and africa for not doing enough for climate change with possible sanctions on products manufactured in a non friendly way. Tax breaks for rural small operators trying to make a go of public bus services.
Allow a tax writeoff for companies investing in renewable projects.

If i was to re write the new green deal id remove all references to health, education, affordable and anything else that makes way for government spending and regulation on businesses.

To be honest , I'm not seeing a whole lot that's wildly controversial in the above list - Maybe the "openly condemn Asia/Africa" is a bit strong.

But incentivising efficient energy usage and reducing the use of hormones etc. in the food chain all seem fairly reasonable to me.

Green Energy is more cost effective in the long term as well as being good for the environment and public health.. All of which are beneficial to the economy.

Havockk

Quin_Dub wrote: »

To be honest , I'm not seeing a whole lot that's wildly controversial in the above list - Maybe the "openly condemn Asia/Africa" is a bit strong.

But incentivising efficient energy usage and reducing the use of hormones etc. in the food chain all seem fairly reasonable to me.

Green Energy is more cost effective in the long term as well as being good for the environment and public health.. All of which are beneficial to the economy.

Not much wrong? It's sheer nonsense, wishy-washy tripe that sounds good until you get to the rub, which is, of course, the idea that if all regulation is removed from capitalists they will suddenly go green. Only a madman would believe that given the history of the abhorrent behaviour of capitalism toward the environment. This is just standard neo-conservative liberalism in a tatty old wrapper.

One could also go as far as to make a fair argument that there is indeed a touch of racism at play here, Asia & Africa? Surely the figures prove inconclusively the most wasteful society is, in fact, the US. Whom the poster routinely defends.

Eric Cartman

Havockk wrote: »

Not much wrong? It's sheer nonsense, wishy-washy tripe that sounds good until you get to the rub, which is, of course, the idea that if all regulation is removed from capitalists they will suddenly go green. Only a madman would believe that given the history of the abhorrent behaviour of capitalism toward the environment. This is just standard neo-conservative liberalism in a tatty old wrapper.

One could also go as far as to make a fair argument that there is indeed a touch of racism at play here, Asia & Africa? Surely the figures prove inconclusively the most wasteful society is, in fact, the US. Whom the poster routinely defends.

How is it in any way racist, africa and asia are the worst offenders for manufacturing pollution by a long shot, for air and water quality for their own people .


How you turned this into a standard rant against capitalism and the belief that its univerally ‘evil’ is beyond me.

Quin_Dub

Havockk wrote: »

Not much wrong? It's sheer nonsense, wishy-washy tripe that sounds good until you get to the rub, which is, of course, the idea that if all regulation is removed from capitalists they will suddenly go green. Only a madman would believe that given the history of the abhorrent behaviour of capitalism toward the environment. This is just standard neo-conservative liberalism in a tatty old wrapper.

One could also go as far as to make a fair argument that there is indeed a touch of racism at play here, Asia & Africa? Surely the figures prove inconclusively the most wasteful society is, in fact, the US. Whom the poster routinely defends.

Where was that in the previous post?

I'd totally agree with you by the way - Removing regulation and hoping that Civic duty fills the void is a nonsense..

Cutting taxes on Green transport , incentivising Energy efficient power generation etc.

All sound reasonable enough to me..

Stallingrad

Eric Cartman wrote: »

How is it in any way racist, africa and asia are the worst offenders for manufacturing pollution by a long shot.

At least make an effort. Before you go spouting any more nonsense about Africa and pollution, emissions per capita is a more useful benchmark when figuring out who is polluting the most.

Per person CO2 emissions from fossil fuels and cement:

Qatar: 36.9 tonnes
United States: 17.3 tonnes
China: 5.4 tonnes
Africa average: 0.9 tonnes

Havockk

Quin_Dub wrote: »

Where was that in the previous post?

I'd totally agree with you by the way - Removing regulation and hoping that Civic duty fills the void is a nonsense..

Cutting taxes on Green transport , incentivising Energy efficient power generation etc.

All sound reasonable enough to me..

So a 'Green Deal' that makes no mention of Health, Education or Affordable energy(?). Nor anything that would cover regulations on business in any way. Nor indeed any Government spending on it.

How useless is that? Just another way of taxing the electorate for the excess of the business class that did the damage in the first place.

Eric Cartman

Stallingrad wrote: »

At least make an effort. Before you go spouting any more nonsense about Africa and pollution, emissions per capita is a more useful benchmark when figuring out who is polluting the most.

Per person CO2 emissions from fossil fuels and cement:

Qatar: 36.9 tonnes
United States: 17.3 tonnes
China: 5.4 tonnes
Africa average: 0.9 tonnes

Firstly population density and numbers play a part, secondly co2 is not the only enviroment damage kn the world

Ultros

Over to Mueller so, I suspect his investigation will come to the same conclusion, time will tell.

https://twitter.com/MSNBC/status/1095348895444549632

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/congress/senate-has-uncovered-no-direct-evidence-conspiracy-between-trump-campaign-n970536

"WASHINGTON — After two years and 200 interviews, the Senate Intelligence Committee is approaching the end of its investigation into the 2016 election, having uncovered no direct evidence of a conspiracy between the Trump campaign and Russia, according to both Democrats and Republicans on the committee."

Quin_Dub

Havockk wrote: »

So a 'Green Deal' that makes no mention of Health, Education or Affordable energy(?). Nor anything that would cover regulations on business in any way. Nor indeed any Government spending on it.

How useless is that? Just another way of taxing the electorate for the excess of the business class that did the damage in the first place.

I was commenting on the specific items listed , not on what might or might not also be included.

The conflation of "Green" and "New Deal" maybe be part of the issue here.

At 1st reading , people with a lack of detail on the original "New Deal" 70/80 years ago might not quite understand why Health and Education would be included in this proposal.

Fixing Health and Education in the US is positively something that needs to be addressed as they are currently in a wholly unacceptable state.

Leroy42

But are you ready for the pushback from coal and other industries when you incentivise green energy? Which is complete contrast to what Trump is doing so by going for that approach you are going completely against a main plank of Trumps agenda.

And where are this incentives going to be funded from? Current taxation or levies.

Why a tax write off for companies, why not a tax incentive for people to re-invest. Give them rebates for going with green energy suppliers.

Only those that can afford new cars can gain from green taxes on new cars, why not limit it and use the savings to help less well off move to new green cars? I would increase the taxes on the more expensive cars, the BMW 7 series etc. Double taxes on them on use that to fund the smaller cars scrappage scheme.

But whilst you may want the other areas to be removed, what the Green plan is aimed at is a new way of thinking, using the urgency of the climate change as the basis to advance change

rossie1977

Amazed an investigation lead by a former national security adviser to the Trump campaign found that Trump himself did nothing wrong!!

Eric Cartman

Leroy42 wrote: »

But are you ready for the pushback from coal and other industries when you incentivise green energy? Which is complete contrast to what Trump is doing so by going for that approach you are going completely against a main plank of Trumps agenda.

And where are this incentives going to be funded from? Current taxation or levies.

Why a tax write off for companies, why not a tax incentive for people to re-invest. Give them rebates for going with green energy suppliers.

Only those that can afford new cars can gain from green taxes on new cars, why not limit it and use the savings to help less well off move to new green cars? I would increase the taxes on the more expensive cars, the BMW 7 series etc. Double taxes on them on use that to fund the smaller cars scrappage scheme.

But whilst you may want the other areas to be removed, what the Green plan is aimed at is a new way of thinking, using the urgency of the climate change as the basis to advance change

Its using climate change as a stick to get to european style left-centre social democracy, the US is not that country, those policies dont have a place everywhere in the world , the US is not france and theres a damn good reason for that. The country was founded to escape oppressive taxation.

Solving climate change with tax breaks encourages new business, solving it with grants or government payments encourages corruption. We should be looking to move forward as a people, leaving out as much government intervention as possible, technology and increased productivity reduced workforces and barriers in many professions, its about time it did it in government.

Havockk

Eric Cartman wrote: »

Its using climate change as a stick to get to european style left-centre social democracy, the US is not that country, those policies dont have a place everywhere in the world , the US is not france and theres a damn good reason for that. The country was founded to escape oppressive taxation.

Solving climate change with tax breaks encourages new business, solving it with grants or government payments encourages corruption. We should be looking to move forward as a people, leaving out as much government intervention as possible, technology and increased productivity reduced workforces and barriers in many professions, its about time it did it in government.

So in other words: Don't just leave it to the people who did most of the damage to the environment. Tax and regulate them less.

Does this sound insane to anyone else or is it just me?

Igotadose

Eric Cartman wrote: »

Its using climate change as a stick to get to european style left-centre social democracy, the US is not that country, those policies dont have a place everywhere in the world , the US is not france and theres a damn good reason for that. The country was founded to escape oppressive taxation.

Solving climate change with tax breaks encourages new business, solving it with grants or government payments encourages corruption. We should be looking to move forward as a people, leaving out as much government intervention as possible, technology and increased productivity reduced workforces and barriers in many professions, its about time it did it in government.

Without addressing population growth, green new deal, pink new deal or cubic zirconium deals won't make an appreciable difference in global warming. And the green new deal doesn't address it, it's bandages on a wound. Somehow magically turning the US into entirely 'renewable energy based' in 20 years won't help when you live on oceanfront property in Cleveland.

Sorry, just plain not enthused about the green new deal at all, it's a nice set of campaign sloganeering is all.

duploelabs

Eric Cartman wrote: »

How is it in any way racist, africa and asia are the worst offenders for manufacturing pollution by a long shot, for air and water quality for their own people .


How you turned this into a standard rant against capitalism and the belief that its univerally ‘evil’ is beyond me.

Citation to back this up please

MadYaker

https://thehill.com/homenews/house/429525-lawmakers-reach-agreement-in-principle-to-avert-shutdown

An agreement reached "in principle" to avert the shutdown. It includes 1 - 2 billion for the wall. I guess when they say "in principle" what they mean is Trump himself hasn't yet been involved in the discussion, seems to be a bipartisan group of senators. I wonder could we see the senate over riding Trumps veto? That would get him off the hook in a way.

Ultros

duploelabs wrote: »

Citation to back this up please

Apologies for large pics, too much effort resizing on phone.

According to Forbes...

https://www.forbes.com/sites/rrapier/2018/07/01/china-emits-more-carbon-dioxide-than-the-u-s-and-eu-combined/

"China Emits More Carbon Dioxide Than The U.S. and EU Combined"





"...Asia Pacific as a whole continues to drive global carbon dioxide emissions higher:"





As for Africa...


https://www.unenvironment.org/news-and-stories/story/air-pollution-africas-invisible-silent-killer-1


"Air pollution remains a major challenge in Africa. About 600,000 deaths every year across the continent are associated with this invisible killer. With 23 per cent of global deaths (12.6 million) linked to environmental factors, WHO estimates that air pollution is responsible for 7 million deaths every year."

Leroy42

I always laugh when I hear the US come out with talks of Africa and China being worse than them in terms of Co2 or whatever.

So what. There are clear advantages to moving to green energy. It would be great if the whole world did it at the same time but the US should be, as regards itself, as a world leader yet continually dries that it can only follow.

Imagine you can completely remove the need for oil, thus removing any need to be in the ME. Bns saved every year in supporting Israel, no need to continue with the continued support of Saudi.

And it could have a significant positive economic impact on the US. Imagine if people no longer needed money for petrol/diesel, or companies could rely on really cheap green energies.

There would be knock on savings on healthcare as well.

But it is a big picture and Trump is totally incapable of doing that. He is currently fixated on a wall for goodness sake, and nothing else can or will be done until he moves his attention from that. Imagine Trump being the overseer of a multi-industry, all state plan and implementation!

Ultros

rossie1977 wrote: »

Amazed an investigation lead by a former national security adviser to the Trump campaign found that Trump himself did nothing wrong!!

According to NBC, the senate democrats don't dispute Richard Burr's characterization ( no evidence of collusion ). Listen for yourself, enough spam for now

https://twitter.com/GOPChairwoman/status/1095357785515139072

everlast75

They said "direct evidence".

It must be tough now for Trump supporters.

Do they commit now to accepting the findings of Mueller in the hope that he makes no adverse findings, but if they do commit and he finds conspiracy etc...

Who am I kidding, they'll just say what suits best afterwards

Leroy42

Yes, the word 'direct' is very obvious there.

It was always very unlikely, and I doubt Mueller will have anything, that they would have direct evidence of Trump. What were people expecting, brown envelopes in car parks handed by Putin to Trump?

So does that mean that there was indirect? and if so how indirect was it? Trump Jr perhaps?

And if it was Trump Jr are someone else close to Trump can Trump supporters really carry on as if it has no impact on Trump and that it can simply be ignored.

It really should be read the other way. After two years, the senate committee are not satisfied that there is nothing there. That is a pretty bleak statement for Trump and the US.

mcmoustache

rossie1977 wrote: »

Amazed an investigation lead by a former national security adviser to the Trump campaign found that Trump himself did nothing wrong!!

To be fair, they are just saying that they haven't found direct evidence themselves at this point. Direct evidence is a high bar and they're not done yet.

mcmoustache

Leroy42 wrote: »

Yes, the word 'direct' is very obvious there.

It was always very unlikely, and I doubt Mueller will have anything, that they would have direct evidence of Trump. What were people expecting, brown envelopes in car parks handed by Putin to Trump?

So does that mean that there was indirect? and if so how indirect was it? Trump Jr perhaps?

And if it was Trump Jr are someone else close to Trump can Trump supporters really carry on as if it has no impact on Trump and that it can simply be ignored.

Manafort giving internal polling data to Kilimnik is on the Mueller radar.

Manafort obviously lied about that and in the recent hearing, the lies were discussed.

Pressed by the judge at Monday’s hearing to say why Mr. Manafort’s alleged lies mattered, Mr. Weissmann gave a broad hint about the thrust of the investigation.

“This goes to the larger view of what we think is going on, and what we think is the motive here,” Mr. Weissmann said. “This goes, I think, very much to the heart of what the special counsel’s office is investigating.”

It's not definitive, of course but his investigation is obviously not known for oversharing but it could be interpreted as Manafort's lies about sharing data and working with Kilimnik is central to what the special counsel is tasked with investigating.

listermint

Whats quite perplexing, almost freudian is how the 'millionaires' in waiting like Eric here are so animated about a marginal tax rate.

I mean it literally doesnt make sense, ultra wealthy avoiding taxes means the likes of Eric has to make up the difference year on year and gets less for it.

Highly amusing and leads me to belief that its disingenuous response, i.e being contrary for the sake of it. Sure their is people that will respond to me if i say x and i get alot of response on it. Doesnt matter if its true il just say it.

Similar to the nonsense about Africa and Asia spouted in the last page, when the plain provable facts is China is spending more on Green Energy initiatives than anyone in the globe.

But sure contrary, for the sake of contrary. Id imagine even Manic is upset about the Marginal Tax rate as sure....... they're all Millionaires in waiting .. just wait now any day now my social responsibility can fly out the window woo woo

Brian?

Ultros wrote: »

According to NBC, the senate democrats don't dispute Richard Burr's characterization ( no evidence of collusion ). Listen for yourself, enough spam for now

In your opinion, does this make the Mueller investigation pointless now?

Or, has it been worth while for all of the indictments and convictions it has yielded so far?

If Trump himself didn't collude, that's great news, but if Don Jr did where does that leave us?

Water John

It may leave Donald as POTUS and his son doing jail time. Though I think there are far too many Russian connections for it to be clean.

amandstu

Igotadose wrote: »

Without addressing population growth, green new deal, pink new deal or cubic zirconium deals won't make an appreciable difference in global warming. And the green new deal doesn't address it, it's bandages on a wound. Somehow magically turning the US into entirely 'renewable energy based' in 20 years won't help when you live on oceanfront property in Cleveland.

Sorry, just plain not enthused about the green new deal at all, it's a nice set of campaign sloganeering is all.

It is immaterial which set of policies successfully address man made carbon emissions so long as a genuine attempt is made to do so.

We don't have the luxury of time to "fiddle as Rome burns"

If one set of policies is ineffective,then move to another set but indecision and lethargy only mean that the irreversible damage will be greater with each passing day.

B0jangles

listermint wrote: »

Whats quite perplexing, almost freudian is how the 'millionaires' in waiting like Eric here are so animated about a marginal tax rate.

I mean it literally doesnt make sense, ultra wealthy avoiding taxes means the likes of Eric has to make up the difference year on year and gets less for it.

Highly amusing and leads me to belief that its disingenuous response, i.e being contrary for the sake of it. Sure their is people that will respond to me if i say x and i get alot of response on it. Doesnt matter if its true il just say it.

Similar to the nonsense about Africa and Asia spouted in the last page, when the plain provable facts is China is spending more on Green Energy initiatives than anyone in the globe.

But sure contrary, for the sake of contrary. Id imagine even Manic is upset about the Marginal Tax rate as sure....... they're all Millionaires in waiting .. just wait now any day now my social responsibility can fly out the window woo woo

It's like a cargo cult - if I worship at the feet of the billionaires, if I give up anything even approaching a fair and just society, they will surely reward me by giving me some of their billions!

everlast75

Brian? wrote: »

In your opinion, does this make the Mueller investigation pointless now?

Or, has it been worth while for all of the indictments and convictions it has yielded so far?

If Trump himself didn't collude, that's great news, but if Don Jr did where does that leave us?

With Junior getting indicted on Friday, I'd wager

everlast75

Water John wrote: »

It may leave Donald as POTUS and his son doing jail time. Though I think there are far too many Russian connections for it to be clean.

Its the lying that gets me.

If nothing was afoot, why did Flynn, Popadopolous, Manafort, Gates, Stone and many more to come, lie if there was no "there there".

That's what has me curious.

My own view is that Trump was compromised, if over nothing else, his lying about Trump Tower.