Donald Trump presidency discussion thread V

mcmoustache

mcmoustache wrote: »

Manafort giving internal polling data to Kilimnik is on the Mueller radar.

Manafort obviously lied about that and in the recent hearing, the lies were discussed.

The judge has found that Manafort did in fact lie about that meeting with Kilimnik where he shared private polling data with him for some reason. Why Manafort, who managed Trump's campaign for a while would be sharing data with Russian intelligence is a mystery. I can't think of any possible reason why thr Trump campaign would be sharing data with Russian intelligence.



Anyway, this just means that his cooperation agreement is off.

kilns

America is crying out for an independent president, the problem is no matter which president is in power the other side will oppose him/her as they are from the other party, however they could not play these games with an independent president and they may be able to "drain the swamp" without being part of the party system. The first thing to go should be PAC money, how any modern democracy can allow this just shows how corrupt the USA really is.

Unfortunately, 2020 is not the time for an independent to run as they would take more votes from a democrat and help Trump win

circadian

kilns wrote: »

America is crying out for an independent president, the problem is no matter which president is in power the other side will oppose him/her as they are from the other party, however they could not play these games with an independent president and they may be able to "drain the swamp" without being part of the party system. The first thing to go should be PAC money, how any modern democracy can allow this just shows how corrupt the USA really is.

Unfortunately, 2020 is not the time for an independent to run as they would take more votes from a democrat and help Trump win

An independent wouldn't stand a chance in the first past the post method. Sanders ran as a democrat for this reason, remember he's an independent senator.

I agree that money in their politcial system needs to be heavily regulated but there are other issues. The electoral college needs to be abolished, gerrymandering needs to be dealt with and if the American people wish to move away from bi-partisan politics then they need to implement single transferrable vote.

This would be a fundamental shift in their political system and would be a massive battle since the first point is the problem. Vested interests would never allow for any of these changes to be made. Division and control of two parties suits the needs of those in the billionaire and lobbyist classes. Citizens United seen to that.

As Keith Olberman stated in 2010 "The next nine men and woman elected to the supreme court won't get there by their judgement, or even their politics but they will be appointed by purchased presidents and confirmed by purchased senators."

In 2010 he predicted that within 10 years of Citizens United was not tackled that the entire political system would be bought and controlled by dark money.

Here we are.

Trump is not the problem, he's a symptom of the problem. Laid bare for all to see in all its ugliness. A purchased president, doing it all for his own gain and getting away with it in plain sight. Robbery of a country.

2020 will be a sign of what direction the USA takes, possibly it's too far gone at this point or maybe the electorate can turn it around but in my eyes, it's their last chance. Another 4 years of Trump or similar will see any remaining rights, checks and balances eroded for Walmart, Raytheon, GE etc to take full control.

kilns

circadian wrote: »

An independent wouldn't stand a chance in the first past the post method. Sanders ran as a democrat for this reason, remember he's an independent senator.

I agree that money in their politcial system needs to be heavily regulated but there are other issues. The electoral college needs to be abolished, gerrymandering needs to be dealt with and if the American people wish to move away from bi-partisan politics then they need to implement single transferrable vote.

This would be a fundamental shift in their political system and would be a massive battle since the first point is the problem. Vested interests would never allow for any of these changes to be made. Division and control of two parties suits the needs of those in the billionaire and lobbyist classes. Citizens United seen to that.

As Keith Olberman stated in 2010 "The next nine men and woman elected to the supreme court won't get there by their judgement, or even their politics but they will be appointed by purchased presidents and confirmed by purchased senators."

In 2010 he predicted that within 10 years of Citizens United was not tackled that the entire political system would be bought and controlled by dark money.

Here we are.

Trump is not the problem, he's a symptom of the problem. Laid bare for all to see in all its ugliness. A purchased president, doing it all for his own gain and getting away with it in plain sight. Robbery of a country.

2020 will be a sign of what direction the USA takes, possibly it's too far gone at this point or maybe the electorate can turn it around but in my eyes, it's their last chance. Another 4 years of Trump or similar will see any remaining rights, checks and balances eroded for Walmart, Raytheon, GE etc to take full control.

Agreed, I think change would not come quickly and would be very slow and could even take 50 - 100 years as Americans still believe in this myth that they are the greatest democracy in the world. It is actually sickening how corrupt that country is from all the bought politcians to gerrymandering. Perhaps a way for it to go is the break up of the Union, if you were a Californian and you had corrupt politicians from Kentucky and Texas making decisions on your behalf, why would you want to stay.

Quin_Dub

Sometimes the headlines just write themselves..

Republican senator says Trump 'won't sign' funding agreement that includes contractor back pay

With just two days left for lawmakers to reach a deal to keep the government open, negotiations hit a new snag Wednesday over a push by Democrats to include back pay for thousands of federal contractors hit by last month's longest-ever partial shutdown.

Republican Sen. Roy Blunt said President Donald Trump would refuse to sign any agreement that includes contractor back pay.

I can see the media on this already if he does indeed refuse to sign the bill if they pay contractors the money they are owned for work done during the shutdown.

Whilst the article does talk about the challenges of implementing a methodology to pay contractors, which sound like reasonable concerns to be addressed , the optics for Trump in particular refusing to pay contractors given his well publicized history in this regard are horrible for him.

He's already a major loser here , but this would be just another open goal for the Democrats.

Water John

One presumes that there is a regular methodology by which this issue of contractors pay is dealt with, since shutdowns happen over the years.

Quin_Dub

Water John wrote: »

One presumes that there is a regular methodology by which this issue of contractors pay is dealt with, since shutdowns happen over the years.

Apparently not - In all previous shut-downs , contractors just got burned.

Only "Salaried" employees get reimbursed..

everlast75

On a tangential Trump issue, some excellent news...


https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/alex-jones-sandy-hook-deposition-shooting-conspiracy-theory-hoax-infowars-a8778636.html

I could not be happier. One of the most vile and manipulative POS I have ever come across

Igotadose

everlast75 wrote: »

On a tangential Trump issue, some excellent news...


https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/alex-jones-sandy-hook-deposition-shooting-conspiracy-theory-hoax-infowars-a8778636.html

I could not be happier. One of the most vile and manipulative POS I have ever come across

Interesting. Libel cases are very difficult to prove in the US, but from what I understand about the law, this one has a chance. Going after Jones via his business model might work. You need to prove intention (among other things) and harm. Harm's pretty obvious - death threats, probable loss of job opportunities and health in the victims. Intention might be based on proving this was part of Jones's business model, which we onliners know was the case but proving in court... well, that's interesting and tied up in 1st amendment right to free speech. Find some records that say, "Hey, Alex, why not make up something about sandy hook, the advertiser's will love it, we can book extra Viagra ads," and you might have a chance.

Igotadose

Some Laffer-ite wrote an article for TheHill about population move to 'lower tax' states. Now, having moved from high-tax NJ to WA state some decades ago, the tax savings was a big incentive, but the primary reason? Better weather, and jobs.

Population gains in Montana aren't due to low tax. It's jobs jobs jobs. Colorado as well. And the high-tax states *used* to be good for jobs (NY/NJ/Mass) but aren't anymore. And you can't afford housing.

https://thehill.com/opinion/finance/429623-americans-continue-their-march-to-low-tax-states

everlast75

At the time when Trump was staying at the WH during his shutdown, in an attempt to show a willingness to end what he started so that the workers wouldn't be p*ssed at him, he spent 50k of tax payers' money on a golf simulator... which he didn't use.

https://twitter.com/kylegriffin1/status/1095723252629098496

Quin_Dub

everlast75 wrote: »

At the time when Trump was staying at the WH during his shutdown, in an attempt to show a willingness to end what he started so that the workers wouldn't be p*ssed at him, he spent 50k of tax payers' money on a golf simulator... which he didn't use.

https://twitter.com/kylegriffin1/status/1095723252629098496

To be fair , the story is that he spent that money to replace/upgrade an existing simulator that Obama had installed at some point.

But again , the timing and the optics are just not good at all for Trump...

Brian?

Quin_Dub wrote: »

To be fair , the story is that he spent that money to replace/upgrade an existing simulator that Obama had installed at some point.

But again , the timing and the optics are just not good at all for Trump...

Neither the timing nor the optics will matter a damn to his supporters. I honestly don’t think anything will put them off. It’s the middle ground he may lose.

The problem with this daily, drip feed of negative stories about Trump is that people are becoming numb to them. So I’m afraid when a big story does hit it won’t get the public interest it deserves.

Walter Bishop

Igotadose wrote: »

Intention might be based on proving this was part of Jones's business model, which we onliners know was the case but proving in court... well, that's interesting and tied up in 1st amendment right to free speech. Find some records that say, "Hey, Alex, why not make up something about sandy hook, the advertiser's will love it, we can book extra Viagra ads," and you might have a chance.

This seems to be a common enough misconception, but the US 1st Amendment is there to stop the federal government attempting to silence you.


It's not a blanket right to say whatever you like on a radio show without fear of consequence.

everlast75

Brian? wrote: »

Neither the timing nor the optics will matter a damn to his supporters. I honestly don’t think anything will put them off. It’s the middle ground he may lose.

The problem with this daily, drip feed of negative stories about Trump is that people are becoming numb to them. So I’m afraid when a big story does hit it won’t get the public interest it deserves.

What are people supposed to do though, when there is 10 sh1tshows a day with this admin? Ignore them?

He was denying people their wages, over a promise he failed to keep, and it turned out his charade didn't even advance his cause and while doing that, he spent 50k on something he didn't use!

I agree that people are becoming numb to them, but the alternative of not highlighting the hypocrisy is worse.

Quin_Dub

Brian? wrote: »

Neither the timing nor the optics will matter a damn to his supporters. I honestly don’t think anything will put them off. It’s the middle ground he may lose.

The problem with this daily, drip feed of negative stories about Trump is that people are becoming numb to them. So I’m afraid when a big story does hit it won’t get the public interest it deserves.

You are absolutely correct , there are just so many stories detailing his failings that the cycle out of the spotlight incredibly quickly and that cycle doesn't seem to alter regardless of the scale of the issue being highlighted.

Small story about some verbal gaffe or insult - Gone in two days

Big Story about obvious corruption - also Gone in two days.

That's the concern if/when the big story breaks.

Quin_Dub

everlast75 wrote: »

What are people supposed to do though, when there is 10 sh1tshows a day with this admin? Ignore them?

He was denying people their wages, over a promise he failed to keep, and it turned out his charade didn't even advance his cause and while doing that, he spent 50k on something he didn't use!

I agree that people are becoming numb to them, but the alternative of not highlighting the hypocrisy is worse.

It's not about ignoring them , it's about the way in which they are reported and dealt with.

By all means report that "Today President Trump did something stupid again" or whatever.

But when he does something big ,like for example the executive order last week changing the meaning of Domestic abuse of women - That must be treated differently.

Every single elected GOP official should be forced to answer the question "Do you support what the president just did?"

I guarantee most average Americans don't know that that change happened last week - It's important that stuff like that is not treated the same as "Trump plays Golf" or "Trump makes no sense in a speech" or whatever.

everlast75

Quin_Dub wrote: »

It's not about ignoring them , it's about the way in which they are reported and dealt with.

By all means report that "Today President Trump did something stupid again" or whatever.

But when he does something big ,like for example the executive order last week changing the meaning of Domestic abuse of women - That must be treated differently.

Every single elected GOP official should be forced to answer the question "Do you support what the president just did?"

I guarantee most average Americans don't know that that change happened last week - It's important that stuff like that is not treated the same as "Trump plays Golf" or "Trump makes no sense in a speech" or whatever.

I agree that the stories should be prioritised, but to me (and hence why I posted about it) it highlighted yet again the brazen disregard for those he financially punished for his own vanity project.

It could be called a fluff piece by some, but it is certainly above a story about a generic tweet and on that point, I unfollowed him on Twitter for the very reason you have stated.

everlast75

There were rumours last year that Rod R was going to be fired because it was alleged that he was involved in discussions regarding the removal of the Pres under Article 25.

He denied this and ultimately stayed on.

McCabe, on 60 mins, is the first official at the meeting(s) who confirmed that it was discussed...


https://twitter.com/NorahODonnell/status/1096020537069977600?s=19

Ultros

everlast75 wrote: »

At the time when Trump was staying at the WH during his shutdown, in an attempt to show a willingness to end what he started so that the workers wouldn't be p*ssed at him, he spent 50k of tax payers' money on a golf simulator... which he didn't use.

https://twitter.com/kylegriffin1/status/1095723252629098496

Got a link to where he paid for it with tax payer funds?

Hint: Try reading the article you linked to.

Perfect example of people hyping a nothing story to feign moral outrage.

hotmail.com

Dohnjoe wrote: »

Polls consistently show a majority of Americans want the investigation followed through to the end

Also, anti-Trump? The man is an extreme narcissist (Mussolini levels), a pathological liar, racist, sexist, interminable hypocrite (on a daily basis), sensationalist, possibly up to his neck in corruption, unprincipled, constantly abuses people/officials/heads of state/etc on twitter like an adolescent, anti-free-press, anti-climate, pro-far-right, it's like some bad 80's disney film where a tantrum throwing ten year old child has messed with an old fairground machine and turned into the US president

It would actually be difficult to come up with a more extreme character

Outside of his core support base he's deeply unpopular anywhere else for the above (and many other) reasons. This isn't opinion, every single criticism above can be backed up to hilt with dozens if not hundreds of examples

People will of course say they support the investigation if asked in a poll. If asked. Otherwise they couldn't give a toss as it doesn't affect their lives.

As for the bit about Trump.. I agree with you. Most people agree with you. The point is we know this. Even his supporters know he's a lunatic.

Move on. Debate real issues and don't get diverted by media attention on the trivial.

Quin_Dub

Ultros wrote: »

Got a link to where he paid for it with tax payer funds?

Hint: Try reading the article you linked to.

Perfect example of people hyping a nothing story to feign moral outrage.

The point is not who paid for it..

It's that during a pointless unnecessary shutdown he had people come to the WH and install a new Golf simulator to keep him occupied whilst he pretended to be working hard to resolve the issue.

everlast75

Ultros wrote: »

Got a link to where he paid for it with tax payer funds?

Hint: Try reading the article you linked to.

Perfect example of people hyping a nothing story to feign moral outrage.

I don't have a subscription to the WP and as it is highly unusual for Trump to pay for anything out of his own pocket, I made an incorrect assumption. That was my error.

Now, feel free to disregard everything else that I tweet based on the fact that one error equates to "fake news" across the board.

Ultros

everlast75 wrote: »

Now, feel free to disregard everything else that I tweet based on the fact t
that one error equates to "fake news" across the board.

Don't worry, given your unhealthy obsession with Trump and lack of factual criticism that's already a given. The tweet didn't mention taxpayer money either, you just threw that in there for added outrage.

Didn't Pres Obama have a golf simulator also, who paid for that?

jooksavage

Ultros wrote: »

Don't worry, given your unhealthy obsession with Trump and lack of factual criticism that's already a given. The tweet didn't mention taxpayer money either, you just threw that in there for added outrage.

Didn't Pres Obama have a golf simulator also, who paid for that?

20 of the 27 posts since your registration/re-registration were about Trump

Ultros

jooksavage wrote: »

20 of the 27 posts since your registration/re-registration were about Trump

20 posts in 3 months, you've caught me red handed.

My "obsession" if you will isn't with Trump, I check this thread occasionally to see what the latest faux outrage is about. When Mueller's report gets released with the inevitable no collusion or conspiracy being the bottom line despite whatever tack people want to throw on like process crimes, I feel as if my job will be done.

Any day now...

everlast75

Ultros wrote: »

Don't worry, given your unhealthy obsession with Trump and lack of factual criticism that's already a given. The tweet didn't mention taxpayer money either, you just threw that in there for added outrage.

Didn't Pres Obama have a golf simulator also, who paid for that?

Unhealthy obsession with the most powerful man in the world being a Russian stooge? I think that's worthy of attention.

And this is a Trump thread, so yes, I will be commenting on him a lot here.

By the way, any comment from you on Trump's Campaign Chair lying about his interaction with Russians leading to the collapse of his plea deal?

Any comment from you on Trump not complying with the Magnitski Act and doing nothing about the killing of an American Resident?

Any comment from you on the embarrassment that he will have to endure when be signs the deal to keep the government open?

Are they substantial enough issues for you?

Ultros

everlast75 wrote: »

Are they substantial enough issues for you?

This is what you do repeatably anytime you're called out on a point, you bang off a big long list with question marks which is impossible to answer trying to reinforce how correct your stance is and how anyone who disagrees is somehow morally or intellectually inferior. I don't engage with such Stalinist "debating" styles, but have it.

everlast75

Ultros wrote: »

This is what you do repeatably anytime you're called out on a point, you bang off a big long list with question marks which is impossible to answer trying to reinforce how correct your stance is and how anyone who disagrees is somehow morally or intellectually inferior. I don't engage with such Stalinist "debating" styles, but have it.

That's not true (surprise surprise).

I accepted I made an error.

It's right there in my post.

Having done that, I asked you for your opinion on more serious matters. Instead of answering, you accuse me of that which you are guilty, which is going off topic.

You say it is impossible to answer 3 questions I put to you?
Why is that I wonder.

Instead of popping in to see what faux outrage there is, perhaps you could engage in a debate? Surely that would be more worthy of your time and it is, after all, why this site exists.

I'm perfectly happy not to engage with you from this point on if that's what you would like.

PS - I've no idea what a Stalinist debating style is. How is that for intellectual superiority, eh?

jooksavage

If anyone is interested into podcasts, you could do worse than listen to the most recent episode of Muller She Wrote. They do a detailed, cross-referenced breakdown of those tower documents that Buzzfeed got hold of last week. The intertwining chronologies of the tower negotiations and the campaign paint a very dim picture. There is zero chance of this ending well for anyone in Trumpworld.