Donald Trump presidency discussion thread V

amandstu

Stallingrad wrote: »

I though it was a very foolish thing to say. You know it will be spun:

Not only are Dems against on border security, they are coming for your guns.

It is such an obvious observation (Pelosi's).If the Repubs are foolish enough to facilitate the setting of this precedent then ,willy nilly the stage is set for further uses down the line.

Personally I would be favourable to considering Global Warming situation as a Global Emergency that should be reflected on all National levels.

It really is a peacetime/wartime scenario in my opinion ;a genuine existential and medium term threat.


EDIT: the Repubs will be looking for their future "Emergencies" too.....

pixelburp

Hey, I gotta be honest here, Trump has arguably played an astute political move, albeit one borne from naked desperation to enact his signature catchphrase. Whether by accident or design he has positioned either the republican senate or (likely) democrat courts as potential scapegoats. He must surely know there's no chance of this "national emergency" being recognised; instead, He gets to go to his rallies and play up the Washington Conspiracy a little more, while avoiding responsibility for one of the most asinine projects in political history. The narrative of Trump the courageous outsider can continue for his dwindling fans.

Stallingrad

pixelburp wrote: »

Hey, I gotta be honest here, Trump has arguably played an astute political move, albeit one borne from naked desperation to enact his signature catchphrase. Whether by accident or design he has positioned either the republican senate or (likely) democrat courts as potential scapegoats. He must surely know there's no chance of this "national emergency" being recognised; instead, He gets to go to his rallies and play up the Washington Conspiracy a little more, while avoiding responsibility for one of the most asinine projects in political history. The narrative of Trump the courageous outsider can continue for his dwindling fans.

Good point, a lack of morality and a lifetime spent never having to face consequences or accountability makes this modus operandi possible. There is always some else to blame for a narcissist.

Gbear

pixelburp wrote: »

Hey, I gotta be honest here, Trump has arguably played an astute political move, albeit one borne from naked desperation to enact his signature catchphrase. Whether by accident or design he has positioned either the republican senate or (likely) democrat courts as potential scapegoats. He must surely know there's no chance of this "national emergency" being recognised; instead, He gets to go to his rallies and play up the Washington Conspiracy a little more, while avoiding responsibility for one of the most asinine projects in political history. The narrative of Trump the courageous outsider can continue for his dwindling fans.

I'd imagine this will split his Republican support between the reactionaries and the base of the narrow personal beneficiaries of Republican policy or those who support the party as a proxy to their religion.

It will ultimately represent a defeat for him. As absurd as the idea of him being "alpha" is, for someone with such a record of failure and who is so obviously physically unimpressive, his bluster has hoodwinked some into thinking that he is a big strong man.

These repeated failures will take some of the sheen off, particularly if there's anyone who can follow up hateful rhetoric with less incompetence, cowardice and physical repulsiveness.

amandstu

pixelburp wrote: »

Hey, I gotta be honest here, Trump has arguably played an astute political move, albeit one borne from naked desperation to enact his signature catchphrase. Whether by accident or design he has positioned either the republican senate or (likely) democrat courts as potential scapegoats. He must surely know there's no chance of this "national emergency" being recognised; instead, He gets to go to his rallies and play up the Washington Conspiracy a little more, while avoiding responsibility for one of the most asinine projects in political history. The narrative of Trump the courageous outsider can continue for his dwindling fans.

There was some guest on Cuomo opining that the way forward for Trump's plan was to make executive orders for small amounts of funds that would be fairly uncontroversial(funds unlikely to be used for example) and "hopefully" gain traction as small parts of the "Wall" were built.**

I think that man was against the Emergency proclamation but in favour of more Wall allocation (whatever that means)

**apparently there are actually large amounts of funds for the purpose of wall building currently unspent.

Leroy42

pixelburp wrote: »

Hey, I gotta be honest here, Trump has arguably played an astute political move, albeit one borne from naked desperation to enact his signature catchphrase. Whether by accident or design he has positioned either the republican senate or (likely) democrat courts as potential scapegoats. He must surely know there's no chance of this "national emergency" being recognised; instead, He gets to go to his rallies and play up the Washington Conspiracy a little more, while avoiding responsibility for one of the most asinine projects in political history. The narrative of Trump the courageous outsider can continue for his dwindling fans.

So you are suggesting that he failed to get his spending past for two years for the GOP House, then took the government into the longest shutdown in history before having to embarrassingly conceded to defeat to his long time nemisis Pelosi, before the then gives everyone 3 weeks to sort it out and then will end up signing a bill which gives him nowhere close to what he either asked for or needs.

But that was all part of the plan because now he can blame someone else and his supporters will accept it?

Sorry, but no. This wasn't part of a plan. His plan was to bully the Dems into accepting his deal rather than have a shutdown. The WH went out of its way to try to create divisions in the DNC, and to play up the fantastic support from the GOP.

Of course his supporters will clap and cheer when he blames Pelosi or the courts, but they would do that anyway.

This is a complete and utter disaster for Trump, no matter what way you try to spin it. He is, if he goes with the NE, accepting that he has no support and has nothing left to offer.

Christy42

MadYaker wrote: »

I don't understand what the basis for the state of emergency is going to be? The lack of a border wall isn't enough surely, since they've never had a full border wall.

also, new AG sworn in I wonder will that have any effect on the mueller investigation?

There does there need to be a serious basis? He just wants to be able to order people around like when he was a CEO. This is the only way to do it (the fact that there is so simple a way shows up the paper thin fabric of democracy in the US).

If enough people follow his orders he gets away with playing dictator. If they don't he won't.

pixelburp

Leroy42 wrote: »

So you are suggesting that he failed to get his spending past for two years for the GOP House, then took the government into the longest shutdown in history before having to embarrassingly conceded to defeat to his long time nemisis Pelosi, before the then gives everyone 3 weeks to sort it out and then will end up signing a bill which gives him nowhere close to what he either asked for or needs.

But that was all part of the plan because now he can blame someone else and his supporters will accept it?

Sorry, but no. This wasn't part of a plan. His plan was to bully the Dems into accepting his deal rather than have a shutdown. The WH went out of its way to try to create divisions in the DNC, and to play up the fantastic support from the GOP.

Of course his supporters will clap and cheer when he blames Pelosi or the courts, but they would do that anyway.

This is a complete and utter disaster for Trump, no matter what way you try to spin it. He is, if he goes with the NE, accepting that he has no support and has nothing left to offer.

No, I'm not saying it was part of the plan; I'm saying that knowing the writing was on the wall, rather than bow out gracefully - like any normal politician might do - and try to spin the minimal border funding as the win, he disavowed himself of responsibility and pushed the blame onto the same target he has been attacking since 2015 - the 'establishment' of Washington. It's a gambit, with obvious ramifications and fallout, and about as complex a manoeuvre as Trump has managed in the last 2 years.

everlast75

MadYaker wrote: »

I don't understand what the basis for the state of emergency is going to be? The lack of a border wall isn't enough surely, since they've never had a full border wall.

also, new AG sworn in I wonder will that have any effect on the mueller investigation?

It is worth remembering that Stone and Nunberg came up with the idea of "building the wall" to keep Trump on message regarding immigration.

Logistically and factually, it was never going to happen as he promised in terms of what it would look or who would pay for it, just like his promise to lock up Hillary. There was never any basis.

It was something to promise those who were on the scale between "concerned about immigration" and "racist" but too lazy to look into the "facts" as espoused by Trump.

Even if he got the go ahead now to begin, it would be 2 years before any construction on a new wall would begin.

What should happen regarding the southern border, or any border, is a bi-partisan investigation as to how best to secure it, which would invariably conclude that more border patrol police, investment in technology etc with a discussion regarding the economics and humanitarian impact of immigration, both legal and illegal.

But that would never wash with what remains of his supporters. "Big wall = good" is the level we are at.

everlast75

pixelburp wrote: »

No, I'm not saying it was part of the plan; I'm saying that knowing the writing was on the wall, rather than bow out gracefully - like any normal politician might do - and try to spin the minimal border funding as the win, he disavowed himself of responsibility and pushed the blame onto the same target he has been attacking since 2015 - the 'establishment' of Washington. It's a gambit, with obvious ramifications and fallout, and about as complex a manoeuvre as Trump has managed in the last 2 years.

He had no option.

There is no real alternative, as to bow out and take the blame is not in his nature.

A person capable of political thinking would not have been so stupid to go ahead and accept the shutdown in advance and in front of the cameras. You can see it in Schumer's face - he can't believe that Trump fell for it.

Remember - if it was an astute political move to make now, why didn't he do it before the shutdown? He threatened to do it then, but didn't.

This is his last role of the dice. As I said above, and you have said yourself, he will fail and he will blame congress or Judges or whoever.

But as Leroy said - only those that are willing to believe him will believe him. To every other right thinking individual, it is a complete and utter sh1tshow.

Quin_Dub

demanufactured wrote: »

I really don't know how he hasn't been shot as of yet.

volchitsa wrote: »

Because the most extreme loonies are all on his side?

##Mod Note##

Not really helpful lads - keep the standards up..

Thanks

Quin_Dub

jooksavage wrote: »

When the heads of the NSA and CIA appeared at a senatorial hearing 2 weeks ago they went through the significant threats to US security (ISIS, NK, Iran etc). Not once did they mention the southern border. There is precisely zero basis for a state of emergency. It's an act of lawlessness and will be stopped.


I'm not sure what to make of the new AG. Certainly seems competent - that's worrying - and he wouldn't have been nominated unless the Trump team thought they could use him to their advantage. But we're so far into the Mueller investigation now, as far killing it, I think that horse has bolted. And the fact that the Dems control the house and have subpoena power is also reassuring.

Ann Coulter made the point that if he's signs the bill on the table today and then tries to declare an emergency for funding for his wall , then he's basically going to have to convince a judge that the bill he just signed is unconstitutional , because if it isn't where's the emergency?

Stacksofwacks

Stallingrad wrote: »

I though it was a very foolish thing to say. You know it will be spun:

Not only are Dems against on border security, they are coming for your guns.

The ironic thing is 40k people dying of gun violence every year now that IS an actual national emergency. At least it should be

banie01

Trump now banging on about "Angel" moms and families!
Where was that respect when he was demeaning gold star families?

Those who support Trump would do well to remember how elected Tyrants seize power...

Leroy42

banie01 wrote: »

Trump now banging on about "Angel" moms and families!
Where was that respect when he was demeaning gold star families?

Those who support Trump would do well to remember how elected Tyrants seize power...

He never demeaned Gold star families.

He demeaned a family of Non Whites that happen to have a gold star son.

francois

Rambling, weird speech-Obvious taking points were "gangs" & "drugs" on repeat. Kept going on about the dangers of fentanyl. A legal prescription drug available in the US.

Timberrrrrrrr

So now he has declared a national emergency for his wall does anyone see him getting the cash for it?

PropJoe10

A journalist just quizzed him on where he gets his numbers from, and he threw a hissy fit, shouting "from Homeland Security and other sources". I guess the other sources are Fox News and Sean Hannity. The guy is an absolute disgrace.

everlast75

PropJoe10 wrote: »

A journalist just quizzed him on where he gets his numbers from, and he threw a hissy fit, shouting "from Homeland Security and other sources". I guess the other sources are Fox News and Sean Hannity. The guy is an absolute disgrace.

He is - and what about if he goes and says this on live tv? What does that make him?

https://twitter.com/kylegriffin1/status/1096445355225423872

DrumSteve

Leroy42 wrote: »

He never demeaned Gold star families.

He demeaned a family of Non Whites that happen to have a gold star son.

So a gold star family?

Leroy42

So he has declared a NE and stated that he doesn't need to do it but simply wants the wall built faster.

And to try to stop the Dems from winning the next election, which he then says they won't anyway so he doesn't need to do it for that reason either!

spacecoyote

Leroy42 wrote: »

So he has declared a NE and stated that he doesn't need to do it but simply wants the wall built faster.

And to try to stop the Dems from winning the next election, which he then says they won't anyway so he doesn't need to do it for that reason either!

Jesus H Christ. The court challenge won't take much effort at this point. Just roll in a screen, press play on those clips & rest your case

Itssoeasy

A legal challenge is one option but the congress have powers under the 1976 act covering national emergencies. The house can pass a resolution contesting saying the president can't use a national emergency and if passed by the house Mitch Mcconnell has to bring it to senate floor by how the 1976 act lays it out. It would be the same if it started in the Senate, the house speaker can't stop it. It needs a simple majority as well, so the GOP senators would be forced to vote with the president on his NE or vote against him.

Leroy42

Why would GOP senators vote against him?

They have shown very little mind to go against him up till now. Far easier to vote with him and let the courts work it out.

SoundsRight

It's a pity he had to use this measure, but he was voted in with a mandate to build a wall. The Dems need to respect that.

Itssoeasy

Leroy42 wrote: »

Why would GOP senators vote against him?

They have shown very little mind to go against him up till now. Far easier to vote with him and let the courts work it out.

Well more than a couple have said on the record that they don't think a national emergency declaration is the right thing to do.

batgoat

SoundsRight wrote: »

It's a pity he had to use this measure, but he was voted in with a mandate to build a wall. The Dems need to respect that.

His mandate was for Mexico to pay for it... Failing to fulfill his mandate is also not an emergency.

Itssoeasy

SoundsRight wrote: »

It's a pity he had to use this measure, but he was voted in with a mandate to build a wall. The Dems need to respect that.

That he said Mexico would pay for.

aloyisious

I expect at least one reply to the effect that Don is a sitting GOP president and as such the GOP must stand with him if he actually goes for a second term using the party label and facilities to get it.

However is it written in stone that the GOP must stand by him if he seeks to use the GOP label to get re-elected or is it just a customary practice in both parties? Is the GOP free to decide sometime in the next 9 months to refuse Don a run for re-election as a GOP party candidate and tell him they have a different candidate for the election?

If Don goes from bad to worse in the polls and annoys the vested interests who want a republican party name in the office, what actually is to stop them from withdrawing GOP facilities and funding from Don and sinking his dreams? If the Fox voices & his media pals were to be persuaded that there was a better GOP candidate than Don around, would they take the hint and stop promo-ing his every word, and cut off his media broadcasting sources?

eire4

Leroy42 wrote: »

So he has declared a NE and stated that he doesn't need to do it but simply wants the wall built faster.

And to try to stop the Dems from winning the next election, which he then says they won't anyway so he doesn't need to do it for that reason either!

I think that his obsession with the wall and striking fear of invading immigrants flowing over the southern US border backfired on him last November and IMHO this move will prove to be a serious mistake.

Reality is it is a total lie pretty much everything that he says about this situation. From anything I have seen and or read it seems like there is no need for a border wall. There is maybe need for some repairs and upgrades here and there to what fencing is already in place but there is no fundamental need for a big new border wall. Immigration numbers over the southern borders are actually down. There certainly is no scary invasion going on like he tries to stoke fear with. The immigrants that are in the US commit violent crimes at lower rates then native born Americans. Bottom line is there is no emergency situation at all. Beyond all that his behaviour once again shows his autocratic proclivities but as I said at the start above I think he is misreading the situation and this will come back to hurt him and the Republican party. Sure the 35% or so of right wing Americans who seem to be filled with hate will love this but beyond that not so much IMHO.