Donald Trump presidency discussion thread V

phater phagan

I just wonder what does Trump or Manafort have on the Republican politicians which makes them averse to criticising him? Russian money paid to them by Manafort maybe?

Igotadose

phater phagan wrote: »

I just wonder what does Trump or Manafort have on the Republican politicians which makes them averse to criticising him? Russian money paid to them by Manafort maybe?

Probably via the NRA. That's at least one of the arcs in the numerous investigations going on.

phater phagan

I heard to Stormy Daniels' lawyer ( I know..!) this morning on BBC radio and he said that Mueller's report may not be enough to remove Trump. Mueller doesn't believe that a sitting president can be indicted, and if it goes to impeachment the Senate will not find him culpable.
The only possibility of removing him will be in the 2020 election - and the Russians will probably be involved in influencing that one also.
The Dems will have to come up with an exceptional candidate to beat him - someone who is tough enough to brawl with him. Whatever we think about Trump he is a tough fighter ( a dirty one too ).

Leroy42

phater phagan wrote: »

I just wonder what does Trump or Manafort have on the Republican politicians which makes them averse to criticising him? Russian money paid to them by Manafort maybe?

I think that might be true for some (certainly McConnell seems to have some questions around him) but I think for many it is simply that Trump is GOP rather than DNC and therefore why would they.

Simple partisan politics.

phater phagan

Leroy42 wrote: »

I think that might be true for some (certainly McConnell seems to have some questions around him) but I think for many it is simply that Trump is GOP rather than DNC and therefore why would they.

Simple partisan politics.

The big question is that if the report discloses egregious evidence of Trump's malfeasance and it repulses the Republican voters in 2020, then those candidates who stood by him might go down with him if he loses.

Leroy42

phater phagan wrote: »

The big question is that if the report discloses egregious evidence of Trump's malfeasance and it repulses the Republican voters in 2020, then those candidates who stood by him might go down with him if he loses.

In a functioning democracy I would agree with you, but the US is far from a functioning democracy.

There are a large amount that will push aside anything the report says. I question was raised by a poster what would all the Trump Haters do if the report didn't prove Trump guilty, but a more pertinent question given the multiple indictments we have already seen is what what it require for Trump supporters to actually start to question Trump?

There are very many people who will simply vote for the GOP no matter what. That people are more than happy to believe that the security forces of the state, the judiciary, long-time republicans, the media and everyone else is basically out to get them rather than consider that there are serious questions that need answering is the proof of that.

That posters like Rigolo can come on here and claim that the Space Force is a well thought out and necessary idea when all the evidence is that Trump never goes into any detail, doesn't understand his brief, is clearly lacking in any facts, makes decisions based on his gut and thinks that he knows better than anybody else is just another symptom of the disease.

Space Force may or may not be necessary, but at no point should anyone think that Trump is doing it because of a rational decision based on reasoned debate and a forward plan based on forecasts and expert analysis.

Penn

phater phagan wrote: »

I heard to Stormy Daniels' lawyer ( I know..!) this morning on BBC radio and he said that Mueller's report may not be enough to remove Trump. Mueller doesn't believe that a sitting president can be indicted, and if it goes to impeachment the Senate will not find him culpable.
The only possibility of removing him will be in the 2020 election - and the Russians will probably be involved in influencing that one also.
The Dems will have to come up with an exceptional candidate to beat him - someone who is tough enough to brawl with him. Whatever we think about Trump he is a tough fighter ( a dirty one too ).

From something I read yesterday, the DOJ has a policy that they may redact information from such reports about anyone who isn't indicted, and that if a sitting president can't be indicted, information regarding Trump himself may be redacted. So yes, it is quite possible there'll be nothing direct enough against Trump to warrant impeachment.

Quin_Dub

Leroy42 wrote: »

In a functioning democracy I would agree with you, but the US is far from a functioning democracy.

There are very many people who will simply vote for the GOP no matter what. That people are more than happy to believe that the security forces of the state, the judiciary, long-time republicans, the media and everyone else is basically out to get them rather than consider that there are serious questions that need answering is the proof of that.

That posters like Rigolo can come on here and claim that the Space Force is a well thought out and necessary idea when all the evidence is that Trump never goes into any detail, doesn't understand his brief, is clearly lacking in any facts, makes decisions based on his gut and thinks that he knows better than anybody else is just another symptom of the disease.

Space Force may or may not be necessary, but at no point should anyone think that Trump is doing it because of a rational decision based on reasoned debate and a forward plan based on forecasts and expert analysis.

I get the feeling that things like Space Force is one of those things that's been floating round for a while and that the guys wanting it saw Trump as an opportunity to get it done , knowing that they wouldn't have to undergo the kind of scrutiny that might ordinarily be expected for something like this and that all they needed was to dangle the shiny baubles of "Space-Force!!!" in front of Trump and he'd leap at it.

More than a few of his weird decisions have the hint of substitute teacher about them..

"But Mr Smith , Mr Jones never gives us homework on a Friday!"

Multiple groups chancing their arm with a naive , ill informed and easily distracted POTUS , utterly incapable of the requisite critical thinking to challenge people on their requests for funding/legislation.

Igotadose

Following on to Trump digging up William Happer, HuffPo's quoting the WaPo that the purpose of this new 'committee' is to cast shade on the climate assessment published by the USG last year. So, taxpayer dollars being spent, to, uhh, countermand what other taxpayer dollars were spent on. IOKIYAR.

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/trump-climate-change-panel-deniers_n_5c734b44e4b00eed0835f1d5

Schnitzler Hiyori Geta

phater phagan wrote: »

Mueller doesn't believe that a sitting president can be indicted, and if it goes to impeachment the Senate will not find him culpable.

Almost nobody credibly thinks a sitting President can be indicted for crimes that may have been committed during the Presidency; the interesting jurisprudential question is whether that applies to crimes committed prior to swearing in.

It'd be the end of the United States as it currently exists if the Mueller report shows clear evidence of crimes (particularly treason) and the Senate favoured party over country. IMO there aren't enough hard-line GOP Senators that wouldn't be crushed in the next election if this was the case; it's all about the selfish goals in the end and the vast majority in the GOP would throw Trump under the bus in an instant if they thought it would help them.

RIGOLO

phater phagan wrote: »

The big question is that if the report discloses egregious evidence of Trump's malfeasance and it repulses the Republican voters in 2020, then those candidates who stood by him might go down with him if he loses.

What Report ?

The only person who will get to see the Mueller Report is the AG, as in the newly appointed Trump AG Barr.
He then produces a report of the report for Congress.
So people will only get to see a report of a report .

This aint the Starr investigation, big difference between an IC and an SC investigation.
That must suck, 2 years waiting for a report and then realising you aint even going to get to see it.

When it comes to long term politicising , 9 times out of 10 the GOP will always pull a master stroke.

phater phagan

Schnitzler Hiyori Geta wrote: »

IMO there aren't enough hard-line GOP Senators that wouldn't be crushed in the next election if this was the case; it's all about the selfish goals in the end and the vast majority in the GOP would throw Trump under the bus in an instant if they thought it would help them.

The Republican party is a great destabiliser of American democracy. It has been more so in modern times, and I firmly believe that it used disreputable tactics in previous elections. I fact, it is well known that voter suppression is rife in some areas where larger numbers of registered Democrats reside, and many are turned away from stations when they arrive to vote. The reduction of voting stations is another tactic used by the Republicans; one district which previously had 9 polling stations was reduced to just two; which resulted in many Democrats not being able to get to them as they were, in some instances, greater distances than they were able travel, for various reasons. The Democrat party needs to stop being complacent and become wiser about their opponents. Their blinding confidence in Hillary Clinton and not realising that there was a danger to her candidacy is a telling point.
I hope that they have learned how to fight Trump and his diversionary tactics or their country will be damaged; perhaps to a degree that is terrifying to comprehend or imagine.

Leroy42

RIGOLO wrote: »

What Report ?

The only person who will get to see the Mueller Report is the AG, as in the newly appointed Trump AG Barr.
He then produces a report of the report for Congress.
So people will only get to see a report of a report .

This aint the Starr investigation, big difference between an IC and an SC investigation.
That must suck, 2 years waiting for a report and then realising you aint even going to get to see it.

When it comes to long term politicising , 9 times out of 10 the GOP will always pull a master stroke.

Schiff was out on the TV circuit at the weekend saying that they (DNC) will push for full disclosure and will request Mueller give evidence if it is not done.

But on a different point, why would you not want the report published? If it clears your guy then great, and if it raises questions then surely it is better that they are out in the open?

And what possible basis would you think that burying a report into the workings of politics is a good idea?

everlast75

RIGOLO wrote: »

What Report ?

The only person who will get to see the Mueller Report is the AG, as in the newly appointed Trump AG Barr.
He then produces a report of the report for Congress.
So people will only get to see a report of a report .

This aint the Starr investigation, big difference between an IC and an SC investigation.
That must suck, 2 years waiting for a report and then realising you aint even going to get to see it.

When it comes to long term politicising , 9 times out of 10 the GOP will always pull a master stroke.

Republican party being the party of law and order, eh?

Apparently justice and transparency are optional extras.

phater phagan

Leroy42 wrote: »

But on a different point, why would you not want the report published? If it clears your guy then great, and if it raises questions then surely it is better that they are out in the open?

And what possible basis would you think that burying a report into the workings of politics is a good idea?

Trump supporters know that he's a compromised and dangerous individual - they just don't care. They revel in conflict, and the possibility of a criminal organisation running the USA.
It's hard to understand, but unfortunately there are many of such people in the world.

Penn

RIGOLO wrote: »

What Report ?

The only person who will get to see the Mueller Report is the AG, as in the newly appointed Trump AG Barr.
He then produces a report of the report for Congress.
So people will only get to see a report of a report .

This aint the Starr investigation, big difference between an IC and an SC investigation.
That must suck, 2 years waiting for a report and then realising you aint even going to get to see it.

When it comes to long term politicising , 9 times out of 10 the GOP will always pull a master stroke.

Even if the AG redacts anything naming Trump directly, that doesn't mean he would be able to reasonably redact anything implicating Trump as an unnamed/unindicted co-conspirator (aka Individual 1), or Trump's family (Don Jr., Ivanka, Kushner). And as Leroy42 pointed out, Schiff was on TV yesterday noting reasons why it would be unlikely that Barr would try to overly redact things or shield too much of the report, but either way, the House Dems have the ability to request the full report, and can call on Mueller to testify about its contents.

I don't think anyone would expect a full unredacted report to be released to the public. But there is only so much Barr can do to try and protect Trump or Trump's family, and even then the Dems can quite easily get around it.

The most likely scenario is that the report itself isn't the headshot. There's only so much Mueller will be able to prove to warrant further investigations. It's what the report might lead to that will matter the most, and how much Trump/Barr and the Dems have to fight for/against further investigations.

RIGOLO

Quin_Dub wrote: »

I get the feeling that things like Space Force is one of those things that's been floating round for a while and that the guys wanting it saw Trump as an opportunity to get it done , knowing that they wouldn't have to undergo the kind of scrutiny that might ordinarily be expected for something like this and that all they needed was to dangle the shiny baubles of "Space-Force!!!" in front of Trump and he'd leap at it.

More than a few of his weird decisions have the hint of substitute teacher about them..

"But Mr Smith , Mr Jones never gives us homework on a Friday!"

Multiple groups chancing their arm with a naive , ill informed and easily distracted POTUS , utterly incapable of the requisite critical thinking to challenge people on their requests for funding/legislation.

May 25 1961 -President John F. Kennedy challenged the US space community to safely send and return an American to the Moon before the end of the decade. Producing the Apollo program, 11 spaceflights , and by July 20th 1969 Apollo 11 completed what JFK had set in motion, with 5 other missions also successfully landing on the moon.

DEC - 11 2017 Trump issues SPD-1 - Tasking the US Space community with a return to the moon.
MAY 24th 2018 - Trump issues SPD-2 - Tasking Transport and Commercial secretarys to ease regulation on launch and re-entry systems.
JUNE 18th 2018 - Trump issues SPD-3 - Tasks various departements to develope a traffic management system for space including space situational awareness.
FEB 19th 2019 - Trump issues SPD-4 - Tasks the Secreatray of Defense to establish and a Space Force as a 6th branch of the military.

Im looking forward to seeing what developments come out of the Trump Administration support and push of NASA, The Pentagon and commercial space
bodies. As NASA's itself claims , for every 1 dollar invested in Space , its a $10 boost for the economy.

And posters here claim its some random opportunistic trick..
When clearly its all part of a long and comprehensive program of re-establishing US at the forefront of Space exploration, particularily low-orbit missions.

kilns

I have a feeling the longer this goes on the more disappointed people are going to be with this Mueller report. I think people are expecting to get a report which highlights all the crimes of the Trump family etc but I just cant see it happening i.e. no further arrests over it. Trump will take this as huge victory and will re-energise his campaign and dare I say it enough to push him over the line again, if he is "cleared"

kilns

RIGOLO wrote: »

May 25 1961 -President John F. Kennedy challenged the US space community to safely send and return an American to the Moon before the end of the decade. Producing the Apollo program, 11 spaceflights , and by July 20th 1969 Apollo 11 completed what JFK had set in motion, with 5 other missions also successfully landing on the moon.

DEC - 11 2017 Trump issues SPD-1 - Tasking the US Space community with a return to the moon.
MAY 24th 2018 - Trump issues SPD-2 - Tasking Transport and Commercial secretarys to ease regulation on launch and re-entry systems.
JUNE 18th 2018 - Trump issues SPD-3 - Tasks various departements to develope a traffic management system for space including space situational awareness.
FEB 19th 2019 - Trump issues SPD-4 - Tasks the Secreatray of Defense to establish and a Space Force as a 6th branch of the military.

Im looking forward to seeing what developments come out of the Trump Administration support and push of NASA, The Pentagon and commercial space
bodies. As NASA's itself claims , for every 1 dollar invested in Space , its a $10 boost for the economy.

And posters here claim its some random opportunistic trick..
When clearly its all part of a long and comprehensive program of re-establishing US at the forefront of Space exploration, particularily low-orbit missions.

Seriously, how do Americans tolerate such waste of money, so many people are loving the idea of a space force and it will cost alot of money, yet a woman who gives birth on a Saturday is expected back in work on a Monday, as there is no paid maternity leave. A third world country in so so many ways

Leroy42

Thats all great Rigolo, but where is the evidence that Trump has thought any of this through?

This is the man that after spending months campaigning on repeal and replace acknowledged that healthcare was "really complicated", more than anyone could ever have known. And then failed to come up with any alternative.

This is the man that has singularly failed to put together any plan for his much lauded 'infrastructure investment'. This is the man that has shown on numerous occasions to not be on top of his brief and there are many reports that he doesn't read the intelligence report or any in depth reports put in front of him.

This is the man that stated when signing a tax legislation that he hadn't read it and hoped it was all ok!

Trump is only the man that has openly called into question the basis of scientific research coming directly from NASA, an organisation that is going to be heavily involved in any space program. He is also the person that has openly stated that he knows more than the generals, the very people that will be tasked with delivering such a program.

As I said, it is not even a discussion about whether this is a good idea, but there is simply nothing to suggest that Trump has any real knowledge of what is required and has put any real plan in place to get it done.

looksee

RIGOLO wrote: »

...
When clearly its all part of a long and comprehensive program of re-establishing US at the forefront of Space exploration, particularily low-orbit missions.

Has anyone ever bothered to translate Rigolo's name?

circadian

RIGOLO wrote: »

What Report ?

The only person who will get to see the Mueller Report is the AG, as in the newly appointed Trump AG Barr.
He then produces a report of the report for Congress.
So people will only get to see a report of a report .

This aint the Starr investigation, big difference between an IC and an SC investigation.
That must suck, 2 years waiting for a report and then realising you aint even going to get to see it.

When it comes to long term politicising , 9 times out of 10 the GOP will always pull a master stroke.

Are you suggesting the AG will produce a dumbed down report to protect the President? You do realise that protecting the President isn't part of the AG remit?

And the point in bold, what do you think will be in this report? You seem delighted that it won't be made public, why is that?

Leroy42

kilns wrote: »

I have a feeling the longer this goes on the more disappointed people are going to be with this Mueller report. I think people are expecting to get a report which highlights all the crimes of the Trump family etc but I just cant see it happening i.e. no further arrests over it. Trump will take this as huge victory and will re-energise his campaign and dare I say it enough to push him over the line again, if he is "cleared"

I agree that many will probably be disappointed. Everything we know about Mueller is that it won't make a call either way. It will be a report, not a judgment.

And you are right that Trump will claim this as a victory, proof that it was all a witch hunt. But I think the DNC are ready for this. They will not be calling for impeachment. They will use the report to open up further deeper investigations. To call Trump Jr back, Mueller in, and plenty of others.

Whatever the report says, and we have a pretty good indication given the level of indictments already in public, this is far from over for Trump and he now faces the exact same issues that he used against HC so successfully in 2016.

Remember, that the only 'issue' with HC was people had a feeling something was up, nothing was ever proven. Trump now has that exact cloud over him, except the level of indictments are much worse.

Schnitzler Hiyori Geta

RIGOLO wrote: »

May 25 1961 -President John F. Kennedy challenged the US space community to safely send and return an American to the Moon before the end of the decade. Producing the Apollo program, 11 spaceflights , and by July 20th 1969 Apollo 11 completed what JFK had set in motion, with 5 other missions also successfully landing on the moon.

DEC - 11 2017 Trump issues SPD-1 - Tasking the US Space community with a return to the moon.
MAY 24th 2018 - Trump issues SPD-2 - Tasking Transport and Commercial secretarys to ease regulation on launch and re-entry systems.
JUNE 18th 2018 - Trump issues SPD-3 - Tasks various departements to develope a traffic management system for space including space situational awareness.
FEB 19th 2019 - Trump issues SPD-4 - Tasks the Secreatray of Defense to establish and a Space Force as a 6th branch of the military.

Im looking forward to seeing what developments come out of the Trump Administration support and push of NASA, The Pentagon and commercial space
bodies. As NASA's itself claims , for every 1 dollar invested in Space , its a $10 boost for the economy.

And posters here claim its some random opportunistic trick..
When clearly its all part of a long and comprehensive program of re-establishing US at the forefront of Space exploration, particularily low-orbit missions.

Space Force has nothing to do with NASA.

GSRNBP

The fact that "Space Force" is a phrase that is genuinely being used will never cease to amaze me (not in a good way).

Quin_Dub

RIGOLO wrote: »

May 25 1961 -President John F. Kennedy challenged the US space community to safely send and return an American to the Moon before the end of the decade. Producing the Apollo program, 11 spaceflights , and by July 20th 1969 Apollo 11 completed what JFK had set in motion, with 5 other missions also successfully landing on the moon.

DEC - 11 2017 Trump issues SPD-1 - Tasking the US Space community with a return to the moon.
MAY 24th 2018 - Trump issues SPD-2 - Tasking Transport and Commercial secretarys to ease regulation on launch and re-entry systems.
JUNE 18th 2018 - Trump issues SPD-3 - Tasks various departements to develope a traffic management system for space including space situational awareness.
FEB 19th 2019 - Trump issues SPD-4 - Tasks the Secreatray of Defense to establish and a Space Force as a 6th branch of the military.

Im looking forward to seeing what developments come out of the Trump Administration support and push of NASA, The Pentagon and commercial space bodies. As NASA's itself claims , for every 1 dollar invested in Space , its a $10 boost for the economy.

And posters here claim its some random opportunistic trick..
When clearly its all part of a long and comprehensive program of re-establishing US at the forefront of Space exploration, particularily low-orbit missions.

You are missing the point , again.

I've no doubt that the people behind these various plans have thought long and hard about the merits of it and are fully invested in their success.

However - None of this is Trumps idea or part of some grand plan from his administration.

He doesn't plan , he doesn't research (he's said so himself) - He goes with his "Gut" , or with whatever he thinks we garner the most press coverage.

The point here is that with previous administrations requests for massive levels of funding would have been subject to deep scrutiny and would be balanced against other things that money could be spent on.

That does not happen with Trump - If he likes the idea or gets a good "feel" he goes for it , and of course if that "feel" changes he's just as likely to pull the plug.

I stand by what I said - The people behind these idea saw an opportunity to get their projects funded without the need for much scrutiny.

No different than a card player spotting a weak dealer at the table and choosing that table to play on.. Not breaking the rules , just taking advantage of the opportunity presented to them.

Also - As another poster said , "Space Force" ?? Really?!

RIGOLO

Quin_Dub wrote: »

You are missing the point , again.

I've no doubt that the people behind these various plans have thought long and hard about the merits of it and are fully invested in their success.

However - None of this is Trumps idea or part of some grand plan from his administration.

He doesn't plan , he doesn't research (he's said so himself) - He goes with his "Gut" , or with whatever he thinks we garner the most press coverage.

The point here is that with previous administrations requests for massive levels of funding would have been subject to deep scrutiny and would be balanced against other things that money could be spent on.

That does not happen with Trump - If he likes the idea or gets a good "feel" he goes for it , and of course if that "feel" changes he's just as likely to pull the plug.

I stand by what I said - The people behind these idea saw an opportunity to get their projects funded without the need for much scrutiny.

No different than a card player spotting a weak dealer at the table and choosing that table to play on.. Not breaking the rules , just taking advantage of the opportunity presented to them.

Also - As another poster said , "Space Force" ?? Really?!

The man built a 58 storey, 200 metre tall skyscraper on Fifth Avenue, between 1979 and 1983 .. and posters are claiming he doesnt plan .. thats laughable.

RIGOLO

Schnitzler Hiyori Geta wrote: »

Space Force has nothing to do with NASA.

I know thats why I said....

FEB 19th 2019 - Trump issues SPD-4 - Tasks the Secreatray of Defense to establish a Space Force as a 6th branch of the military.

jm08

RIGOLO wrote: »

The man built a 58 storey, 200 metre tall skyscraper on Fifth Avenue, between 1979 and 1983 .. and posters are claiming he doesnt plan .. thats laughable.

Hardly innovative at that time in the US.

pixelburp

RIGOLO wrote: »

The man built a 58 storey, 200 metre tall skyscraper on Fifth Avenue, between 1979 and 1983 .. and posters are claiming he doesnt plan .. thats laughable.

With his own hands? Few CEOs outside of the Jobs mould are detail oriented to the point of building a skyscraper (one that is 10 storeys lower than claimed in the lobby) and being involved in the nitty gritty. Let's not be complete fantasists here