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Donald Trump presidency discussion thread V
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jooksavage wrote: »Last year, on Lawfare Steph Haggard and Mira Raap Hooper predicted this how things would ultimately pan out with North Korea. They said that after all the photos and self-congratulations of the first summit, which actually produced very little the in the way of substance, follow-up dialogue was doomed to failure because (1) the diplomatic corps has been gutted and didn't have the expertise that would help the administration to navigate the extremely nuanced politics of the region and (2) the commander-in-chief himself had precisely zero understanding and no desire to understand the motivations of the NK regime. He had approached an escalating international crisis like any other photo-op.
When you listen to someone like Tommy Vietor explain the years of behind-the-scenes diplomatic wrangling and tens of thousands of man hours that went into the Iran deal, it makes Trump's attempt with NK look like a crude crayon rendering magnetted to a fridge and really makes you wonder if anyone apart from Trump seriously thought anything could come of it.
With the extra added goody of Trump praising Kim, which no doubt harms the anti-Kim forces in the area. Two horrible men in front of a camera singing each other's praises. One a mass-murderer dictatorial criminal, the other a wannabe dictator.
Apparently Kim answered a question from a US reporter, in English. That was somewhat surprising but I guess Kim's brighter than he looks. (I actually doubt you can rise to the top of the circle of hell that is Korean dynastic politics without being intelligent though, and didn't he go to school in Switzerland?)0 -
Trump was asked if he discussed the case of Otto Warmbier - held in prison and later died - with KJU. He said he asked him but took KJU at his word when KJU said he knew didn't know.
And that appears to be it. After all his twitting and handringing about getting him home he simply lets KJU away with such a line.
As others on tweeter have pointed out, Trump has now expressed his trust in Putin, Mohammed bin Salman in relation to the killing of Jamal Khashoggi and now KJU.
But he totally distrust the US media, the FBI, the CIA, the justice system!0 -
As others on tweeter have pointed out, Trump has now expressed his trust in Putin, Mohammed bin Salman in relation to the killing of Jamal Khashoggi and now KJU.
But he totally distrust the US media, the FBI, the CIA, the justice system!
Nailed it.
Those people all have the ability to make trump insanely wealthy post Presidency, where as those US institutions are most like to have him locked up.
As ever its all about him, all his delusional supporters are being played and refuse to see it.0 -
Stallingrad wrote: »Nailed it.
Those people all have the ability to make trump insanely wealthy post Presidency, where as those US institutions are most like to have him locked up.
As ever its all about him, all his delusional supporters are being played and refuse to see it.
The bit I don't get is why people still stand by him under the moniker of MAGA when Trump consistently goes out of his way to show them the opposite.0 -
No. You don't get to compare Trumps farcical distraction of meeting with a Dictator to something that I, and many others on here lived through. There are absolutely no parallels in these things.
I grew up with shootings, riots and bombings all around me. People were murdering one another on the streets. Trump is murdering his own country for personal gain and everyone around him is doing the same. This meeting with Kim is nothing more than propaganda for Trump. He couldn't care less about moving Kim from nukes. The only reason they haven't tested is because their test site collapsed a few years ago.
There are absolutely no parallels between Trump flying, ironically, to Vietnam to sit and take photographs with a dictator to boost his ratings and the Northern Irish Peace Process. Donald Trump isn't fit to lick John Hume's boots.
They tested 4 times during OBAMAs reign and we had no summits... the Obama/John Kerry/ Hilary strategic patience policy was a hoot.
Sure theres loads of parralles with the Northern Ireland Peace process, that took 6-8 years of official talks , preceeded by 10-15 years if not longer of un-official talks. This may take 4-6-8 years also .
We have two sides with years of mis-trust trying to come to a peace agreeement ... another parrallel.
WE have two main protagonaists at a summit , with many ancilliary parties with a stake in teh game also .. another parralel
We have two sides with access to weapons of lethal force (massive destruction in NKs case)
We have proponents who have in the past performed acts of pure callousness.. another parralel
We have a process where not very nice peopel are goign to have to be dealt with, debated with , shook hands with and had photo ops with ... another parrallel
We have a process thats just begun (in relative terms) and may run for many years .. another parrallel.
I could stick the Cold War Summits in there and have drawn the same parrallels.
Summits are pretty standard fair, the parraleles are the same across many, but obviously each has its own unique angles.0 -
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Trump was asked if he discussed the case of Otto Warmbier - held in prison and later died - with KJU. He said he asked him but took KJU at his word when KJU said he knew didn't know.
And that appears to be it. After all his twitting and handringing about getting him home he simply lets KJU away with such a line.
As others on tweeter have pointed out, Trump has now expressed his trust in Putin, Mohammed bin Salman in relation to the killing of Jamal Khashoggi and now KJU.
But he totally distrust the US media, the FBI, the CIA, the justice system!
Just to highlight what was said exactly; taken from TheGuardian:
“Some really bad things happened to Otto,” Trump said. “But Kim tells me that he didn’t know about it and I will take him at his word.”
[...]
“I don’t believe he knew about it. He felt very badly about it, I did speak to him. He knew about it, but he knew about it after,” Trump said. North Korea, he went on, was a “big country” with “a lot of people in those prisons and the camps – there are some bad people”.
What an asinine statement to make. Not sure if Trump intended to tacitly approve of these prisons, who knows. Yet we're meant to praise this trip as some olive branch of peace and diplomacy yet here's the US President equivocating over noted prison camps, while believing the blather of a despot, over the intelligence services who (presumably) knew what was going on on the ground.
The talks break down, he comes out with idiotic stuff like the above, and still... and still. There are those that might plead contrarianism, or even subtle masterplans at work. That we're too skewed and blinkered to see some truth hidden from us. Hidden from Trump as well I daresay if he's unwilling to trust his own people. Or even stand up for some poor tortured wretch who died at the hands of a regime.0 -
Trump was asked if he discussed the case of Otto Warmbier - held in prison and later died - with KJU. He said he asked him but took KJU at his word when KJU said he knew didn't know.
And that appears to be it. After all his twitting and handringing about getting him home he simply lets KJU away with such a line.
As others on tweeter have pointed out, Trump has now expressed his trust in Putin, Mohammed bin Salman in relation to the killing of Jamal Khashoggi and now KJU.
But he totally distrust the US media, the FBI, the CIA, the justice system!
Yep poor old Otto may he RIP.
It was good that at least Trump got the body back.
He can add that to the bodies of 55 US Servicemen who died in the Korean War and whos bodies were repatriated .
The first returns since 2005 , another achievement in the US<>NK dialogue
Even TIME wrote it up
http://time.com/5322001/north-korea-war-remains-dpaa/
Heck its even something we can draw a parrallel with the Northern Ireland process and the identification of the locations of the bodies of The Dissapeared.
Nippon TV regularly shows South Korean reaction to the current US<>NK exchanges, they have not been this positive in many years, theres alot of small exchanges , small changes across the 58th parrallel. Some elderly SKs are hopeful they may get to see family they have been seperated from for over 50 years before they die.0 -
I agree, there are similarities to both situations, and as in the North dialogue is the only thing that will bring about meaningful change.
I do have a difficulty with "The leader of the free world" referring to the other, who has committed untold atrocities (executing a political rival with a flamethrower), as a 'friend'.
Does that not bother you Rigolo? (Not expecting an answer)0 -
They tested 4 times during OBAMAs reign and we had no summits... the Obama/John Kerry/ Hilary strategic patience policy was a hoot.
Sure theres loads of parralles with the Northern Ireland Peace process, that took 6-8 years of official talks , preceeded by 10-15 years if not longer of un-official talks. This may take 4-6-8 years also .
We have two sides with years of mis-trust trying to come to a peace agreeement ... another parrallel.
WE have two main protagonaists at a summit , with many ancilliary parties with a stake in teh game also .. another parralel
We have two sides with access to weapons of lethal force (massive destruction in NKs case)
We have proponents who have in the past performed acts of pure callousness.. another parralel
We have a process where not very nice peopel are goign to have to be dealt with, debated with , shook hands with and had photo ops with ... another parrallel
We have a process thats just begun (in relative terms) and may run for many years .. another parrallel.
I could stick the Cold War Summits in there and have drawn the same parrallels.
Summits are pretty standard fair, the parraleles are the same across many, but obviously each has its own unique angles.
The Summit was a disaster, quite the clusterfk, but he got his photo op with the dictator which was all he really cared about.0 -
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Yep. "Talks break down" in Western media means, "Trump backs down on all demands, great win for glorious leader" in NK media.
North Korea will out-Trump him every time, they've been doing the "even when you lose, you've won" strategy for decades. He doesn't know how to handle someone who plays his own game better than him.0 -
https://twitter.com/thehill/status/1101115563584176129
Now that really is saying something. When globally approval of the leadership of China exceeds approval of the leadership of the US, you know something is fundamentally wrong!0 -
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Stallingrad wrote: »I agree, there are similarities to both situations, and as in the North dialogue is the only thing that will bring about meaningful change.
I do have a difficulty with "The leader of the free world" referring to the other, who has committed untold atrocities (executing a political rival with a flamethrower), as a 'friend'.
Does that not bother you Rigolo? (Not expecting an answer)
This is one of the massive issues I have with this.
Even if you take this as a stepping stone on a long road to a satisfactory conclusion (which I don't) Trumps language and behaviour around KJU is reprehensible.
This is a man who has had multiple people in his inner circle executed , including family members , one guy was killed with an Anti-Aircraft cannon!!!. And that's only the start of the atrocities he's committed.
By all means for the purposes of political necessity he is someone that you come to a mutually agreed consensus on specific issues and so on , but he should NEVER EVER be called a friend or a "Great man" .
Trumps repeated fawning over so called "strongman leaders" is stomach-churningly embarrassing at this stage.0 -
Whatever about the Chinese and their human rights issues, they are at least rational. The US is now unreliable and impulsive. It's leader has the self control and attention span of a spoiled brat and when he expresses that on twitter or on TV, his administration scrambles to cobble up a policy. It's not dependable and the world knows it.0
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Just to highlight what was said exactly; taken from TheGuardian:
“Some really bad things happened to Otto,” Trump said. “But Kim tells me that he didn’t know about it and I will take him at his word.”
[...]
“I don’t believe he knew about it. He felt very badly about it, I did speak to him. He knew about it, but he knew about it after,” Trump said. North Korea, he went on, was a “big country” with “a lot of people in those prisons and the camps – there are some bad people”.
What an asinine statement to make. Not sure if Trump intended to tacitly approve of these prisons, who knows. Yet we're meant to praise this trip as some olive branch of peace and diplomacy yet here's the US President equivocating over noted prison camps, while believing the blather of a despot, over the intelligence services who (presumably) knew what was going on on the ground.
The talks break down, he comes out with idiotic stuff like the above, and still... and still. There are those that might plead contrarianism, or even subtle masterplans at work. That we're too skewed and blinkered to see some truth hidden from us. Hidden from Trump as well I daresay if he's unwilling to trust his own people. Or even stand up for some poor tortured wretch who died at the hands of a regime.
As always when I see him say stuff like that, I always imagine the ****storm if Obama/Hillary had said it...0 -
Brand China is way ahead of Brand America by virtue of not having a free press. Hence Trumps war on the press, if it wasn't for them we could all rely solely on Fox news as the only news source to tell us how great he is.
That is why he hates the press and loves dictators.0 -
So it came out yesterday that Trump inflated and deflated the value of his properties. Cohen mentioned one golf club that had a $50m valuation for insurance and a $5m valuation for property tax. I know a sitting president can't be indicted but surely once he is out of the White House the IRS are going to take an interest in this? From what Cohen said he is involved in large scale tax evasion, something the IRS take a very dim view of.0
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Also anyone know anything about Trumps 2013 sworn testimony about Felix Sater
https://twitter.com/KenGude/status/1100888201416331264
From Wiki-Felix Henry Sater (born Felix Mikhailovich Sheferovsky; Russian: Фе́ликс Миха́йлович Шеферовский; March 2, 1966) is an American former mobster,[6] real estate developer and former managing director of Bayrock Group LLC,[7] a real estate conglomerate based out of New York City. Sater has been an advisor to many corporations, including The Trump Organization,[8] Rixos Hotels and Resorts, Sembol Construction, Potok (formerly the Mirax Group), and TxOil.
In 1998, Sater pleaded guilty to his involvement in a $40 million stock fraud scheme orchestrated by the Russian Mafia,[9][10] and became an informant for the Federal Bureau of Investigation and federal prosecutors, assisting with organized crime investigations. In 2017, Sater agreed to cooperate with investigators into international money laundering schemes.[11]
So Felix Sater is a convicted mobster who pled guilty for his role in a $40m stock fraud run by the Russian mafia. And he had an office on the same floor as Donald Trump in Trump tower. And they are both well known New York property developers. But Trump testified that he wouldn't recognise him?0 -
Whilst Trump supporters will of course come on here and try to dismiss yesterday Cohen testimony (and remember he will be giving testimony to the Senate as well behind closed doors) as yet another nothing burger, it was very clear that things have taken a major change in DC...
Sure enough, some tGOP politician used that exact phrase to describe Cohen's sworn testimony just today:
"The whole thing yesterday was basically a nothing burger,"
https://thehill.com/hilltv/rising/431988-gop-oversight-rep-calls-cohen-testimony-a-nothing-burger
But, even Fox news is having (well, kinda having) difficulty defending the behavior of the tGOP. An exchange between Brett Baier and Jim Jordan had Jordan wriggling out of answering whether the allegations made by Cohen were credible:
https://www.mediaite.com/tv/bret-baier-confronts-jim-jordan-forget-cohens-credibility-what-about-the-substance-of-trumps-actions/0 -
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Let's face it, Cohen has been working with Mueller/SDNY for quite some time now. At this point, there was likely nothing said at yesterday's hearings that isn't already known to investigators. They likely have a lot of this stuff already reviewed, investigated, and likely with corroborating evidence for most of it.
Yesterday was all about optics; starting to get it all out into the open and the attack from the Dems and defence from the Reps. But the investigation into everything Cohen said yesterday would have started a long time ago, including the stuff about taxes, or Felix Sater, or the Stormy Daniels payments.0 -
Despite being a really awful president, Trump may end up better than his predecessors if he starts no new wars like Obama and Bush did, I think Hillary would have been a worse president in this area.There is a lot still wrong with Trump, he continues the drone policy of Obama, sucks up to dictators, calling people like Kim Jong Un 'my friend', when his 'friend' should be in the Hague for committing crimes against humanity.
Trump is not competent and there is no sign of any real competent leadership on the horizon in the US.
Maybe Trump is under the thumb of Putin, maybe it means less war.
Maybe the world is in turmoil as the power axis is moving to China, and Russia is on the coat tails of China.
It is hard to read where things are, and where they are going, but we are in a period of potential major historical change in the world.
The west has really bad leadership in the US. The UK is having a political civil war. Then the EU is facing problems with the rise of the right.
Trump is like a symptom of an overall change in the world, maybe in the world we are in the 1930's period after the crash, maybe we are heading towards the early 1940s...0 -
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Let's face it, Cohen has been working with Mueller/SDNY for quite some time now. At this point, there was likely nothing said at yesterday's hearings that isn't already known to investigators. They likely have a lot of this stuff already reviewed, investigated, and likely with corroborating evidence for most of it.
Yesterday was all about optics; starting to get it all out into the open and the attack from the Dems and defence from the Reps. But the investigation into everything Cohen said yesterday would have started a long time ago, including the stuff about taxes, or Felix Sater, or the Stormy Daniels payments.
Exactly - This was all about the Dems getting ahead of any potential delay or redaction of the Mueller report.
Based on Cohens comments they now have a legitimate reason/excuse to open multiple new lines of enquiry.
The difference in the questioning from both sides was quite apparent.
On the Dem side , clearly they'd all read and been briefed on Cohen's written statement and had probably each been given an area to Target (AOC specifically covering the tax element for example) so that they could hit the key points and tee up the subsequent rounds of subpoenas and hearings.
However on the GOP side , to be honest they looked very dis-jointed and the only story they had was "You're a liar so why should we believe you" - At no time did any of them actually challenge the things Cohen said , they just repeatedly called him a liar (for his previous lies) .
One of them , rather than actually coming up with a meaningful rebuttal to even one of the statements in Cohens written statement, had actually gone to the trouble of making up a huge Photo of Cohen with the words "Liar Liar, Pants on Fire" printed on it and hanging it up in the room! - That's what an elected member of congress sitting on a fairly powerful committee thought was an appropriate thing to do.
And don't get me started on them bringing in the "Black Friend" to prove that Trump isn't a racist!!0 -
Despite being a really awful president, Trump may end up better than his predecessors if he starts no new wars like Obama and Bush did, I think Hillary would have been a worse president in this area.There is a lot still wrong with Trump, he continues the drone policy of Obama, sucks up to dictators, calling people like Kim Jong Un 'my friend', when his 'friend' should be in the Hague for committing crimes against humanity.
Trump is not competent and there is no sign of any real competent leadership on the horizon in the US.
Maybe Trump is under the thumb of Putin, maybe it means less war.
Maybe the world is in turmoil as the power axis is moving to China, and Russia is on the coat tails of China.
It is hard to read where things are, and where they are going, but we are in a period of potential major historical change in the world.
The west has really bad leadership in the US. The UK is having a political civil war. Then the EU is facing problems with the rise of the right.
Trump is like a symptom of an overall change in the world, maybe in the world we are in the 1930's period after the crash, maybe we are heading towards the early 1940s...
What new wars did Obama start?
https://twitter.com/RonPaul/status/920786580243021824
How about Venezuela Robert?0 -
Manic Moran wrote: »I'm one of that majority who wants background checks improved, but am happy with the no-vote on this one, looking at the text of the bill. It's basically a repeat of the same proposal put out after Sandy Hook, which requires third-party involvement, records keeping, and additional hassle and expense.
That the Republicans should, when they had the majority, have passed the Coburn/McCain proposal from back then which mandates background checks without third party involvement (There are at least two ways of doing this, the one proposed by them requires internet authentications for buyer and seller, the other requires the use of the system which already exists for firearms dealers) doesn't make the Mike Thompson bill any better.
Whats wrong with independent involvement?
Why would you not want fire arms to be an actual 'process' to obtain perhaps with some legitimate expense.
I mean, its a firearm. Not a toy. Why do you want the system for checks to be just cheap and easy and a box ticker? Because that is basically what you are saying here.0 -
Exactly - This was all about the Dems getting ahead of any potential delay or redaction of the Mueller report.
Based on Cohens comments they now have a legitimate reason/excuse to open multiple new lines of enquiry.
The difference in the questioning from both sides was quite apparent.
On the Dem side , clearly they'd all read and been briefed on Cohen's written statement and had probably each been given an area to Target (AOC specifically covering the tax element for example) so that they could hit the key points and tee up the subsequent rounds of subpoenas and hearings.
However on the GOP side , to be honest they looked very dis-jointed and the only story they had was "You're a liar so why should we believe you" - At no time did any of them actually challenge the things Cohen said , they just repeatedly called him a liar (for his previous lies) .
One of them , rather than actually coming up with a meaningful rebuttal to even one of the statements in Cohens written statement, had actually gone to the trouble of making up a huge Photo of Cohen with the words "Liar Liar, Pants on Fire" printed on it and hanging it up in the room! - That's what an elected member of congress sitting on a fairly powerful committee thought was an appropriate thing to do.
And don't get me started on them bringing in the "Black Friend" to prove that Trump isn't a racist!!
So you have a problem with Lynne Patton.As she said of herself,
Im Highly educated
Im not brain washed
Im not low info
Im not a racist
Im a professional
Im not part of a cult
I hate political correctness
Im a leader not a follower
I beleive we need big change
I dont blindly believe the liberal media
I support Donald Trump
I am a highly educated black woman who rose up the ranks of a competitive real-estate firm and now successfully oversees the largest HUD program office in the country . ..
I was there to represent one man, one man who is responsible for the lowest unemployment rates in the balck community, one man who gave 32 million dollars MORE to Black Colleges than the last administration, one man who just passed the most comprehensive prison reform bill in 3 decades , one man whose just created an urban council to fund 100 billion in capital into urban and rural communitys....
her words ...
I take it that is the BLACK FRIEND your referring too...
Talib and her race-baiting got put back in her box in that exchange, calling the women self-described above a prop and accusing Meadows a man with african american neices and nephews and who also happens to be one of Cummings the black DNC chairmans best friends, a racist ...
TALIB defending a white male convicted liar against the stance of a successfull professional black african american woman , and now posters here , are also implying shes a prop.
Play the racist card is always the first and last resort of the left in desperate times.0 -
So you have a problem with Lynne Patton.
her words ...
I take it that is the BLACK FRIEND your referring too...
Talib and her race-baiting got put back in her box in that exchange, calling the women self-described above a prop and accusing Meadows a man with african american neices and nephews and who also happens to be one of Cummings the black DNC chairmans best friends, a racist ...
TALIB defending a white male convicted liar against the stance of a successfull professional black african american woman , and now posters here , are also implying shes a prop.
Play the racist card is always the first and last resort of the left in desperate times.
Didn't Meadows tell Obama to go back to Kenya?0 -
I would believe that the Dems had plenty of time to review Cohens testimony and implement a strategy.On the Dem side , clearly they'd all read and been briefed on Cohen's written statement and had probably each been given an area to Target (AOC specifically covering the tax element for example) so that they could hit the key points and tee up the subsequent rounds of subpoenas and hearings.
However on the GOP side , to be honest they looked very dis-jointed and the only story they had was "You're a liar so why should we believe you" - At no time did any of them actually challenge the things Cohen said , they just repeatedly called him a liar (for his previous lies) .
To be fair though the GOP didn't receive his testimony until after 11 pm on the night before the hearing. The rules state that the testimony must be submitted to Congress at least 24 hours in advance. If Chairman Cummings followed the rules, the hearing would have been postponed.
Mark Meadows
"Committee rules require witnesses to provide their testimony to Congress 24 hours in advance of a hearing. We know that rule was intentionally violated, as an adviser of Mr. Cohen's felt the need to go on CNN last night and explicitly state his suggestion that Mr. Cohen 'hold his statement' as long as possible 'so the other side can't chew it up,'" Meadows said. "Lo and behold, we didn't get Mr. Cohen's statement till 11:00 p.m. last night and didn't receive any of the 'evidence' until this morning. Today's hearing is in explicit violation of the rules."0 -
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So you have a problem with Lynne Patton.
her words ...
I take it that is the BLACK FRIEND your referring too...
Talib and her race-baiting got put back in her box in that exchange, calling the women self-described above a prop and accusing Meadows a man with african american neices and nephews and who also happens to be one of Cummings the black DNC chairmans best friends, a racist ...
TALIB defending a white male convicted liar against the stance of a successfull professional black african american woman , and now posters here , are also implying shes a prop.
Play the racist card is always the first and last resort of the left in desperate times.
I have no problem with Lynn Patton at all ,my problem is with Meadows and the rest of the GOP committee members bringing her into the hearing as a rebuttal witness to the commentary from Cohen about Trumps racism (as alleged by Cohen) it's a cheap parlour trick and demeaning to Lynn Patton more than anyone else.
Racism is a pattern of behaviour , it's not one action or indeed one friend or work associate/employee so using a single action or person as rebuttal to a claim of racism is extremely weak indeed.
That's the point I was making as I'm fairly confident you and everyone else are well aware.0 -
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VicMackey1 wrote: »I would believe that the Dems had plenty of time to review Cohens testimony and implement a strategy.
To be fair though the GOP didn't receive his testimony until after 11 pm on the night before the hearing. The rules state that the testimony must be submitted to Congress at least 24 hours in advance. If Chairman Cummings followed the rules, the hearing would have been postponed.
Mark Meadows
"Committee rules require witnesses to provide their testimony to Congress 24 hours in advance of a hearing. We know that rule was intentionally violated, as an adviser of Mr. Cohen's felt the need to go on CNN last night and explicitly state his suggestion that Mr. Cohen 'hold his statement' as long as possible 'so the other side can't chew it up,'" Meadows said. "Lo and behold, we didn't get Mr. Cohen's statement till 11:00 p.m. last night and didn't receive any of the 'evidence' until this morning. Today's hearing is in explicit violation of the rules."
Fair enough , but Meadows blew his chance to do that when he relinquished his speaking rights and then tried to get back again and Cummings wouldn't let him..
I fully accept it's not great , but there is a long history of both sides playing silly buggers with arcane procedural rules to gain the upper hand in these hearings..
But even with that , someone had time to print that ridiculous "Liar Liar" poster and have it brought in to the room - Utterly childish and I'd say that no matter who did it..0
This discussion has been closed.
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