Donald Trump presidency discussion thread V

Ultros

listermint wrote: »

Personally I'd call meeting Russian operatives in your own building and having full knowledge of when the dumping of emails of your opponent are evidence enough.

But sure look Trump is a liar we all know that. Perhaps he just lucked out on the evidence on paper.

You wrote many times that even outside of Trumpland, people like Lindsey Graham were Russian assets and that large sections of the GOP were controlled by Russia. Anyone who opposed that viewpoint you snidely insulted as morally or intellectually inferior.

The cognitive dissonance you're currently experiencing must be truly enlightening.

everlast75

I find it amusing that those who have been saying that the investigation is biased (witch hunt) etc

1) all of sudden think the report is legitimate
2) without even reading it.

TomOnBoard

Mueller's investigation is now done, and the report will be fodder for lots of analysis and opinion as to whether Congress should continue with its probes or not.

Meanwhile, the many other civil and criminal investigations into Trump's business dealings as well as people who operated in his orbit continue apace in SDNY and elsewhere.

If the Mueller report is finally judged to exonerate him and his campaign from direct involvement in collusion with Russia, thats to be welcomed, as otherwise a proven allegation that a sitting President had in fact colluded with Russia would be more than the US could bear as a nation.

The obstruction issue was always much less clear, and its no surprise that Mueller found some evidence of that, but not enough to constitute criminality. So be it. As a great poet said:

“The Moving Finger writes; and, having writ,
Moves on: nor all thy Piety nor Wit
Shall lure it back to cancel half a Line,
Nor all thy Tears wash out a Word of it.”

― Omar Khayyám

Its time to move on past that piece which comprises the Mueller investigation, just as its long past time to move on beyond Clinton email servers which have already been litigated. Many indictments emanated from the investigation, and more will come, even if not handled directly by the Mueller team. Much of the content of those indictments is public record, and should be seen as previously published chapters of Mueller's report.

Further indictments from SDNY etc. will continue to shine a light on a person and organisation who has been grounded in shady dealing and possible criminality for decades; a person who ran for President simply to enrich his brand, never believing he would actually win.

If he sees vindication from the Report, let him take it and enjoy it. I doubt his enjoyment will last for long!

Cheerful Spring

Midlife wrote: »

Not really though.

I mean they clearly wanted him elected, he had business dealngs there and then junior came out with the whole 'I LOVE IT' mail.

Add to that Manafort and Flynn's shady connections and no, it was NOT evident from the start there was no evidence trump campaign colluded with Russia.

I don't believe that I ever suggested in this forum that there was collusion but I would suggest that if you thought these waters have always been clear, you are not being honest.

Manafort and Flynn were not convicted for Russian collusion. They were convicted for lying and white collar crimes.

Again talking to the Russians about business and before he became president is not a crime.

It was obvious from the get-go the Democrats never got over the fact Trump beat Hilary at the polls. And they lashed out and blamed everyone but themselves. The real collusion was the democratic party conspiring against Bernie Sanders and helping Hilary win. The DNC hack also is suspicious.

RobertKK

As I said last week, there are enough things going on with the Trump presidency that aren't good - Netanyahu being like Trump's boss, allowed the murderer MBS get away scot-free, the Iran deal, the climate deal, stance on Brexit, calling Kim Jong Un who murders his own family a 'friend'...
Some people hung so much of their hope of Mueller finding something.
I avoided posting here for the most part as I felt the thread had or has this following problem: as humans, people on both sides can be as equally as guilty believing what suits their opinion, dismissing what doesn't suit one's opinion.
I know so many were not expecting this outcome with the investigation, and the people who were wrong about what would be found, won;t be as quick to say they let prejudices influence their opinion. As I said we can all be guilty of that problem.
So no collusion between Trump and the Trump campaign with Russia.

Water John

We all know both what Manfort and Flynn were involved with. That is open knowledge. We can all make a judgement on their activities.

everlast75

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

Manafort and Flynn were not convicted for Russian collusion. They were convicted for lying and white collar crimes.

Again talking to the Russians about business and before he became president is not a crime.

It was obvious from the get-go the Democrats never got over the fact Trump beat Hilary at the polls. And they lashed out and blamed everyone but themselves. The real collusion was the democratic party conspiring against Bernie Sanders and helping Hilary win. The DNC hack also is suspicious.

I have found that the only people who bring up Hillary, are Trump supporters...

Cheerful Spring

everlast75 wrote: »

I have found that the only people who bring up Hillary, are Trump supporters...

You're wrong because I agree with Robertkk statement above.

JRant

listermint wrote: »

Personally I'd call meeting Russian operatives in your own building and having full knowledge of when the dumping of emails of your opponent are evidence enough.

But sure look Trump is a liar we all know that. Perhaps he just lucked out on the evidence on paper.

I completely disagree with you. Trump hasn't lucked out on this. Meuller has been meticulous in his investigations to date. If there was evidence of collusion, he would have found it. He also nailed more than a few crooks on his way. Some of which would have been able to provide details if they actually existed.

My biggest fear from this investigation was that Trump would be able to use it as a campaign tool for 2020. I really hope I'm wrong but this could be the shot in the arm his campaign needed and he gets a second term.

Eric Cartman

so whats the next cnn 'this will be the end' of donald trump scandal or thing to get worked up about ? now that this has turned into a nothing burger.



personal bet - donald serves out his 4 years with neither him or his family in cuffs , no pardons needed to achieve this. Stone might go to prison, 2020 would be a big effort to win but he might do it and serve another 4. Afterwards goes back to being a business man, in 20 years time with hindsight I don't think people will regard him half as badly as people do now.

Eric Cartman

JRant wrote: »

I completely disagree with you. Trump hasn't lucked out on this. Meuller has been meticulous in his investigations to date. If there was evidence of collusion, he would have found it. He also nailed more than a few crooks on his way. Some of which would have been able to provide details if they actually existed.

My biggest fear from this investigation was that Trump would be able to use it as a campaign tool for 2020. I really hope I'm wrong but this could be the shot in the arm his campaign needed and he gets a second term.

This is what its actually looking like. between this and the 'emergency' call on the wall, its really not hard to spin it to 'I delivered all my headline promises, Im completely clean etc....' the presumption of wrongdoing was hanging over him among a lot of fence sitters the last time , this time he has a 'body of evidence' that he can quote to say he's squeaky clean and delivering everything.

Larbre34

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

Anything criminal that Mueller found that didn't pertain directly to collusion, he passed on confidentially to prosecutors in NY. There is a team of lawyers putting all of this, and other evidence, together before prosecution.

This is the key thing.

Barr's letter is of course massively disingenuous, there are already key campaign people and personal advisors to Trump convicted, still under investigation or having copped a plea and yet he states there is no campaign collusion, full stop.

It is Barr's decision not to prosecute rather than Muellers, and that having been made in such haste over a weekend will lead to questions about how that decision was reached and intolerable pressure to publish the Mueller report in its entirety as well as supporting documentation for others to formulate conclusions.

But back to the original point, New York. The US Congress is an unwieldy and partisan forum, where justice is a difficult animal to pin down. On the other hand, the Public Prosecutor and US District Court of the Southern District of New York are perhaps the most extensively experienced bodies in complex financial and major terrorist and organised crime investigations in the US. Maybe Mueller knew he couldn't rely on Congress and executive interference to do the job but he has built a big ole pizza for the Big Apple to chomp on.

Dis ain't over by a damn sight.

listermint

Ultros wrote: »

You wrote many times that even outside of Trumpland, people like Lindsey Graham were Russian assets and that large sections of the GOP were controlled by Russia. Anyone who opposed that viewpoint you snidely insulted as morally or intellectually inferior.

The cognitive dissonance you're currently experiencing must be truly enlightening.

I wrote what about Graham ?

Can you cite examples of this I'm intrigued.

Professor Moriarty

JRant wrote: »

I completely disagree with you. Trump hasn't lucked out on this. Meuller has been meticulous in his investigations to date. If there was evidence of collusion, he would have found it. He also nailed more than a few crooks on his way. Some of which would have been able to provide details if they actually existed.

My biggest fear from this investigation was that Trump would be able to use it as a campaign tool for 2020. I really hope I'm wrong but this could be the shot in the arm his campaign needed and he gets a second term.

The prosecutors in New York have no specific and narrow remit such as Mueller had. Nor can The Donald fire or intimidate any of them. I have no doubt that they have lots of nuggets on The Donald, Junior and Kushner as a result of evidence that didn't relate to collusion and was therefore passed on by Mueller. Nuggets that he got from Mananfort, Stone, Cohen and Flynn and nuggets they are yet to cough up. If you lie down with dogs, you get up with fleas.

listermint

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

You're wrong because I agree with Robertkk statement above.

But there's no details out other than trump's lackeys statement.

manual_man

Mueller completely fudged it re. obstruction of justice, instead leaving the question open and passing it on to others and ensuring the vicious political fighting goes on. He should be ashamed. He should have made a definitive ruling so all this could be put to bed. Instead, the shítshow rolls on.

JRant

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

The prosecutors in New York have no specific and narrow remit such as Mueller had. Nor can The Donald fire or intimidate any of them. I have no doubt that they have lots of nuggets on The Donald, Junior and Kushner as a result of evidence that didn't relate to collusion and was therefore passed on by Mueller. Nuggets that he got from Mananfort, Stone, Cohen and Flynn and nuggets they are yet to cough up. If you lie down with dogs, you get up with fleas.

It's just plain wrong to say Meuller had a narrow remit. If it wasn't for him none of those others would be convicted or up on trial for corruption charges.

everlast75

Apparently Mueller was not consulted in relation to this letter.

Furthermore, Barr's letter is 4 pages in length, and does not contain one full sentence from the report.

Eric Cartman

everlast75 wrote: »

Apparently Mueller was not consulted in relation to this letter.

Furthermore, Barr's letter is 4 pages in length, and does not contain one full sentence from the report.

Can I ask, are you genuinely clutching at the straw that Barr has completely misled everyone and that the report actually concludes something that would put donald or one of his family in prison ?

When will you just conceed on this ?

everlast75

Eric Cartman wrote: »

Can I ask, are you genuinely clutching at the straw that Barr has completely misled everyone and that the report actually concludes something that would put donald or one of his family in prison ?

When will you just conceed on this ?

I'm saying that I will reserve my judgement until I see the report.

Barr is on the record as criticising the SCO's legitimacy despite every challenge in Court with that argument being defeated. I therefore would like to see the report.

That is all.

That is an entirely reasonable stance to take IMHO.

Cody montana

Eric Cartman wrote: »

Can I ask, are you genuinely clutching at the straw that Barr has completely misled everyone and that the report actually concludes something that would put donald or one of his family in prison ?

When will you just conceed on this ?

People will only concede when the full report is released.

He fired Sessions for a reason, he installed Barr for a reason.
And it wasn't truth and integrity.

Release the full report and then it ends.

Franz Von Peppercorn

I dint have any time for Donald but the Russia dossier story was a story for children.

All the other stuff with regards NY are investigations into business corruption. We know that he’s operated in a grey area for his career. That’s not what this investigation was about.

Professor Moriarty

Cody montana wrote: »

People will only concede when the full report is released.

He fired Sessions for a reason, he installed Barr for a reason.
And it wasn't truth and integrity.

Release the full report and then it ends.

Well, the investigation into collusion might end. Other investigations are ongoing.

VinLieger

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

I dint have any time for Donald but the Russia dossier story was a story for children.

All the other stuff with regards NY are investigations into business corruption. We know that he’s operated in a grey area for his career. That’s not what this investigation was about.

Indeed even if the russia stuff turns out to be false weve learned recently that he very likely comitted serious finacial fraud by falsely overestimating his net worth to banks, then add in all the NY charity shenanigans, refusal to divulge his tax returns, pissing on the emoluments clause and generally enriching himself and his family with as much government money as possible it doesnt exaclty leave him smelling of roses

JRant

Eric Cartman wrote: »

Can I ask, are you genuinely clutching at the straw that Barr has completely misled everyone and that the report actually concludes something that would put donald or one of his family in prison ?

When will you just conceed on this ?

I think you know the answer to that Eric. Barr is now a lackey so only the full report will do. If that's released then it will move on to "we need to see all the evidence". Then it's on to the SDNY and just wait till you see what they have.

Maybe Barr is just making it all up to protect Trump but the likelihood of that is extremely low.

It was always going to go this way. If Meuller had found anything then Trump supporters would be saying it was biased and the other side would be claiming vindication.

It's sad but that's the level of discourse that surrounds Trump.

PropJoe10

He'll be done for tax fraud etc by the SDNY regardless. Keep calm, people.

everlast75

JRant wrote: »

I think you know the answer to that Eric. Barr is now a lackey so only the full report will do. If that's released then it will move on to "we need to see all the evidence". Then it's on to the SDNY and just wait till you see what they have.

Maybe Barr is just making it all up to protect Trump but the likelihood of that is extremely low.

It was always going to go this way. If Meuller had found anything then Trump supporters would be saying it was biased and the other side would be claiming vindication.

It's sad but that's the level of discourse that surrounds Trump.

The House voted 420-0 to have the report released.

What an entirely unreasonable bunch we are for feeling the same way...

JRant

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

I dint have any time for Donald but the Russia dossier story was a story for children.

All the other stuff with regards NY are investigations into business corruption. We know that he’s operated in a grey area for his career. That’s not what this investigation was about.

It's pretty much a given that everyone involved in the real estate business in New York is up to their oxters in dirt/backhanders/etc.

There may be a lot of very powerful and influencial business people and politicians in NY that may not want all their dirty linen aired in public. I suspect that those SDNY cases may slowly start to fade away.

JRant

everlast75 wrote: »

The House voted 420-0 to have the report released.

What an entirely unreasonable bunch we are for feeling the same way...

"We"? Is that the royal "we"?
There's nothing unreasonable about wanting to see the full report, I welcome that as it will provide some more clarity than a 4 page summary.

everlast75

JRant wrote: »

"We"? Is that the royal "we"?
There's nothing unreasonable about wanting to see the full report, I welcome that as it will provide some more clarity than a 4 page summary.

Yeah. I think I'm the queen. :rolleyes:

I mean all of the people you referred to as those that would change the goalposts. I thought that was very very clear.