Donald Trump presidency discussion thread V

Schnitzler Hiyori Geta

Danzy wrote: »

The same type of loons that believe Corbyn will usher in a Communist Govt. with Gulags and murder believe Trump will go for dictatorship than leave office.

I would have assumed the point of the dictatorship would be that he then wouldn't leave office.

I don't believe Trump would attempt to stay on past the 2024 election (i.e. change the term limits) but I don't think he'll go without a major fuss if he loses in 2020.

pixelburp

Was going to share the same headline about the WH security clearances: I mean, in the interest of balance I am genuinely curious about how often these kind of security blips occur - either in terms of Red Flags raised, or indeed those flags ignored.

If this isn't a common occurrence, then this latest revelation floats somewhere between slapdash, ignorant and suspect.

everlast75

pixelburp wrote: »

Was going to share the same headline about the WH security clearances: I mean, in the interest of balance I am genuinely curious about how often these kind of security blips occur - but in terms of Red Flags raised, or indeed those flags ignored.

If this isn't a common occurrence, then this latest revelation floats somewhere between slapdash, ignorant and suspect.

Something something something emails...

Eric Cartman

everlast75 wrote: »

Meanwhile, the dumpster fire that is this administration rumbles on...


https://twitter.com/jimsciutto/status/1112718529281904640?s=19

ahh you have your new 'thing that will amount to nothing'

still waiting on those n word tapes.

everlast75

Eric Cartman wrote: »

ahh you have your new 'thing that will amount to nothing'

still waiting on those n word tapes.

So let me get this straight.

I post something that is literally happening with this administration, a real national security issue, another *actual* scandal and instead of either saying nothing (which is literally the least you could do) or heaven forbid agree with me that Trump has acted out of order, you bring up a hunch that I had over 4 months ago completely unrelated to my post?

And then make a joke that nothing will be done about it, which is absolutely nothing to be proud about.

Seriously?

Just click ignore on my posts if you're not bothered.

relax carry on

Eric Cartman wrote: »

ahh you have your new 'thing that will amount to nothing'

still waiting on those n word tapes.

Eric, is there anything at all that you would agree that this administration has gotten wrong which could negatively impact the US at all?

Eric Cartman

relax carry on wrote: »

Eric, is there anything at all that you would agree that this administration has gotten wrong which could negatively impact the US at all?

I do and have done repeatedly in the past. This is the last time ill deal with this.

Every time I post anything that isnt a straight condemnation of Trump or associates , within 3 posts therell always be somebody going 'but could you condemn this, or will you condemn something.

the lay of the land in here seems to be 'you can condemn endlessly , but if you defend or even just ask somebody to hold on a second before jumping to wild conclusions , you must also condemn something else.

Could you imagine if i posted 3-4 posts after every negative post saying 'but now can you say something positive about donald'

Eric Cartman

everlast75 wrote: »

So let me get this straight.

I post something that is literally happening with this administration, a real national security issue, another *actual* scandal and instead of either saying nothing (which is literally the least you could do) or heaven forbid agree with me that Trump has acted out of order, you bring up a hunch that I had over 4 months ago completely unrelated to my post?

And then make a joke that nothing will be done about it, which is absolutely nothing to be proud about.

Seriously?

Just click ignore on my posts if you're not bothered.

I don't ignore anyones posts, don't believe in living in an echo chamber, your posts have provided some insight and interesting reading.

I just think you're the quickest one here to jump on literally anything on twitter negative about trump, the gop or anything vaugely right of centre , post it up here as if its the thing thats going to 'bring down donald' or its a huge deal, and then dismiss it as nothing when it turns out to be ....nothing.

you hyped the crap out of the mueller report , and im aware the full report isnt out yet and we have to wait till april but thus far it seems like nothings coming of it, the second the barr letter came out you moved straight to hyping the SDNY and completely dropped mueller.

I welcome your contributions but just urge you to maybe hold horses on twitter 'news stories' till theres a bit of substance to them.

pixelburp

It's being wildly reported in most major outlets including this side of the pond Eric, it's far from Twitter tattle. Being as it does come from a whistleblower obviously raises questions of authenticity - and I asked myself if this is an unreported norm - but assuming it all checks out it's a pretty damning indictment of shoddy standards - at best - in an administration that famously declared that it would seek only 'the best people'. Vetting the staff shouldn't be undertaken lightly,and overruling them is ... odd.

Eric Cartman

pixelburp wrote: »

It's being wildly reported in most major outlets including this side of the pond Eric, it's far from Twitter tattle. Being as it does come from a whistleblower obviously raises questions of authenticity - and I asked myself if this is an unreported norm - but assuming it all checks out it's a pretty damning indictment of shoddy standards - at best - in an administration that famously declared that it would seek only 'the best people'. Vetting the staff shouldn't be undertaken lightly,and overruling them is ... odd.

But i mean similar thing with the mueller report. I brought up the 'n' word tapes in my last post because that made sky news, it was in the guardian, it was on cnn , it went everywhere and was nothing.

At this point with what borders on almost conspiracy theories in my book, until the actual tape appears, the whistleblower is named and credibility established etc.... its just not real,

When it comes to trump it seems like everyone in the media and online is willing to talk about the smoke, but can't find the fire.

Stallingrad

Can you imagine if Obama had bypassed security to get a bunch of his 'homies' into the WH? The Reps would have gone nuclear. Can that party ever recover from damage this Presidency is doing to their credibility?

ancapailldorcha

Stop bickering. Posts deleted.

Cheerful Spring

everlast75 wrote: »

Meanwhile, the dumpster fire that is this administration rumbles on...


https://twitter.com/jimsciutto/status/1112718529281904640?s=19

Maybe they should do some real reporting for a change- CNN. Trump main donors are Israeli, not Russian. Trump also backed by the Saudis and UAE. The official media will never touch this they too afraid to go near it.

duploelabs

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

Maybe they should do some real reporting for a change- CNN. Trump main donors are Israeli, not Russian. Trump also backed by the Saudis and UAE. The official media will never touch this they too afraid to go near it.

The Saudis that they're now selling Nuclear tech to? Funny that

Leroy42

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

Maybe they should do some real reporting for a change- CNN. Trump main donors are Israeli, not Russian. Trump also backed by the Saudis and UAE. The official media will never touch this they too afraid to go near it.

Or maybe Fox News, the largest network, should start doing some real reporting!

demfad

Schnitzler Hiyori Geta wrote: »

I would have assumed the point of the dictatorship would be that he then wouldn't leave office.

I don't believe Trump would attempt to stay on past the 2024 election (i.e. change the term limits) but I don't think he'll go without a major fuss if he loses in 2020.

His daughter will run for president in 2024. That is why she and Kushner have senior positions in the White House.

That is why only family members retain the power positions in the administrations while other positions are revolving doors.

Apparently this is how you set up a dynastic kleptocracy.
That is why Ivanka was chosen to pick the new head of the World Bank.

As this is the US and has massive power, the Trumps are not only able to protect their own autocracy but those of other autocrats. They can start to control global institutions to both protect and enrich them.

If Trump stays in power you will start seeing more Trump/Putin appointees to global Institutions and pressure put on countries to reject the Magnitski act which targets global money laundering: hurts Putin/Trump/Mogelevich etc etc.

demfad

Eric Cartman wrote: »

I don't ignore anyones posts, don't believe in living in an echo chamber, your posts have provided some insight and interesting reading.

I just think you're the quickest one here to jump on literally anything on twitter negative about trump, the gop or anything vaugely right of centre , post it up here as if its the thing thats going to 'bring down donald' or its a huge deal, and then dismiss it as nothing when it turns out to be ....nothing.

you hyped the crap out of the mueller report , and im aware the full report isnt out yet and we have to wait till april but thus far it seems like nothings coming of it, the second the barr letter came out you moved straight to hyping the SDNY and completely dropped mueller.

I welcome your contributions but just urge you to maybe hold horses on twitter 'news stories' till theres a bit of substance to them.

Russian Interference:

The Mueller report will include over 30 indictments in the Russian interference investigation including several senior members of Trump's campaign.

You will recall that Trump has consistently denied Russian interference including famously and subserviently he took Putin's side above his own country's in Helsinki.
A massive question must be therefore why Trump was consistently taking Russia's side on this when he was fully aware of evidence that Russia interfered.
The implication is that Trump seems to be under the influence of a foreign power. (There are dozens of other substantive reasons to believe this).
You will also note that Manafort and Stone indictments included lying about Russian Collusion:
Stone as intermediary between 'Senior' and 'High Ranking' Trump campaign officials and Wikileaks/Guccifer 2.0. note* 'High Ranking' = Bannon
Manafort lied about passing polling data to Kimlinkin (GRU agent) in 3 swing States. States that the Russians targetted specificallly in their election Interference.
The report WILL SHOW collusion. It wont show that the SC proved the crime of conspiracy between Americans and the Russian Government (specifically) for the specific crime that the Russians were indicted over.

Obstruction:

In Barr's letter to Mueller in 2018 he claimed that Trump could not obstruct a crime or an investigation that had not started. In other words there had to be a specific investigation to obstruct.
You can see in Barr's letter that he based his own verdict on this. There was not enough evidence that Trump obstructed the SPECIFIC investigation that Mueller got indictments for. Whats more because Trump was not found guilty one cannot be sure of his guilty intent for obstruction.
Mueller did not exonorate Trump nor did he make a 'traditional' judgement.
We need to see what evidence pro and against that Mueller laid out.

We also know that some cases are still under grand jury and also that some cases were discharged to other offices.

The fact that Trump was allowing non security cleared people access to sensitive material is not a twitter conspiracy: Jared Kushner is an extremely well publicised example.

everlast75

Here is a list of the known investigations into Trump.

"For WIRED, Garrett M. Graff compiled the full list of known investigations targeting President Trump’s world from various federal, state, and local prosecutors.

There are known cooperators in almost every single one of these open cases, from Michael Cohen to National Enquirer chief David Pecker to former Manafort aides Sam Patten and Rick Gates, Graff tells Axios readers.

(NB - as of December 2018)

Investigations by special counsel Robert Mueller:

1) Russian government’s election attack (the Internet Research Agency and GRU indictments)
2) WikiLeaks
3) Middle Eastern influence: Potentially the biggest unseen aspect of Mueller’s investigation is his year-long pursuit of Middle Eastern influence targeting the Trump campaign.
4) Paul Manafort’s activity
5) Trump Tower Moscow project
6) Other campaign and transition contacts with Russia
7) Obstruction of justice
8) Investigations by the U.S. Attorney for the Southern District of New York:

9) Campaign conspiracy and Trump Organization finances
10) Inauguration funding
11) Trump super PAC funding
12) Foreign lobbying
13) Investigations by the U.S. Attorney for the District of Columbia:

14) Maria Butina and the NRA
Investigations by the U.S. Attorney for the Eastern District of Virginia:

15) Elena Alekseevna Khusyaynova, the alleged chief accountant of the Internet Research Agency who was indicted separately earlier this fall, charged with activity that went above and beyond the 2016 campaign. Why she was prosecuted separately remains a mystery.
16) Turkish influence: Michael Flynn’s plea agreement includes some details of the case, and he is cooperating with investigators.

Investigations by New York City, New York State and other state attorneys general:

17) Tax case: In the wake of an N.Y. Times investigation that found Trump had benefited from more than $400 million in tax schemes, city officials said they were investigating Trump’s tax payments, as did the New York State Tax Department.
18) The Trump Foundation
19) Emoluments lawsuit: The attorneys general for Maryland and D.C. sent out subpoenas earlier this month for Trump Organization and hotel financial records relating to their lawsuit that the president is in breach of the "Emoluments Clause" of the Constitution, which appears to prohibit the president from accepting payments from foreign powers while in office.

And there's a mystery investigation from an unknown office:

Redacted Case #2: A second, redacted Flynn investigation could be one of the other investigations mentioned here. It could also represent another as-yet-unknown unfolding criminal case or could be a counterintelligence investigation that will never become public."

_______________________________________

Most moral people will see those investigations, read about his tax cheating, his bigamy, his lies, his laziness, his attacks on the press and on veterans, his ham fisted racism and cruelty and rightly think "that guy is not fit for office".

But no, most Trump supporters equivocate, which enables them to pick and chose their battles. They can proclaim that they "don't support some of the stuff he does, but...." when in reality, the whole picture of who Trump is and what he stands for should be abundantly clear and immediately repulsive. Without question. Even on balance, outweighing any perceived "good" against the bad the decision should be clear.

There should be, on a basic human level, an instinctive rejection of him and what he stands for. However, what I've found is, rather than be repulsed by the abject and apparent criminality, there is almost an admiration for him, for being able to evade justice so far, as if that is accomplished by some sort of coyness or cleverness on his part, as opposed to what he has done, utilising bribery, bullying or lately desperately clinging to the protection of the office.

There is a willingness to overlook the intentional cruelty and in some cases, a celebration in his attempts to "stick it to" a particular group of people, who in most cases are a minority or vulnerable.

That is not the role of any elected official, nevermind the President of the United States.

Of course - it's a free world.... So far anyway. People are entitled to think what they think. They are entitled to admire who they want to admire. That is true.

But people should at least be honest about it. The guy is a thug, a wannabe dictator, a con artist who has zero appreciation for the rule of law, the American constitution and the general public at large who he is supposed to represent. He does not understand loyalty, what it is to go without, he cannot grasp honesty or decency or the concept of hard work.

His own staff despise and rate him as incompetent.

I make no apology to looking forward to the day when karma catches up with him. I would like to see him undergo the full but fair rigours of the law. I think its the only way the US comes out of this.

serfboard

It wasn't talked about much here, but I think the case involving the US government's funding of the Special Olympics is quite instructive.

The Secretary of Education Betsy DeVos, who is a member of the billionaire Prince family and who married into the even richer DeVos family, wanted to eliminate government funding for the Special Olympics. The backlash was huge and Trump eventually said that the funding cut would be reversed.

There are two things that are interesting to me about this. One is that Trump still manages to maintain his (slightly) populist credentials, which got him the Republican Party nomination and Presidency. For many people, Trump was the best candidate among a basket of deplorables.

Which leads on to the other interesting thing about this incident and that is the repugnance of the Republican Party in general and people like DeVos in particular - the cut (18 million dollars) is a drop in the ocean to the federal government and would even be peanuts to her own family:

NPR wrote:

Over the years, the parents, in-laws and husband of U.S. Education Secretary Betsy DeVos have given hundreds of millions of dollars to conservative causes.

Trump is not the cause of the Republican Party veering off to the far, oligarchic right - Trump is the consequence of it.

Unfortunately for the non-wealthy people who voted for him, Trump is most assuredly not the solution to this problem that they thought he was. In terms of policy, he has done nothing more than maintaining the standard Republican orthodoxy - funding tax cuts to the super-wealthy by cutting social programmes, of which the attempted cut in the Special Olympics funding is a small example.

batgoat

In related news, the Supreme Court have made some pretty disturbing decisions in terms of authorising cruel and unusual punishment with death penalties. Apparently opens up possibility of opening mentally disabled or juvenile cases for the death penalty. Article is a bit disturbing.

https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2019/04/supreme-court-neil-gorsuch-eighth-amendment-death-penalty-torture.html

hotmail.com

Leroy42 wrote: »

Or maybe Fox News, the largest network, should start doing some real reporting!

The point being made that the main stream media in America doesn't really want to address real issues associated with Trump and indeed issues that affect the every day lives of Americans.

CNN and the rest just want to focus on the trivial to get ratings.

Leroy42

hotmail.com wrote: »

The point being made that the main stream media in America doesn't really want to address real issues associated with Trump and indeed issues that affect the every day lives of Americans.

CNN and the rest just want to focus on the trivial to get ratings.

Yes, but it was CNN mentioned specifically. The point being that CNN should concentrate on 'real' issues rather than wasting time talking about how terrible Trump is.

It is always ironic that the 'right' are always so quick to demand certain behaviour from others whilst never bothering with it themselves.

Fox, as the biggest network, could easily change the dynamic. In fact, one could argue that it was as a result of Fox News that the news environment changed to the extent that today it is all about sensationail and less about actual news.

Of course, it wouldn't matter to many if CNN did undertake real investigations. WP, NYT and many others have carried real indepth stories (Trump tax affairs for one) that people simply ignored. Wasn't it the WP that first ran with the story of Sessions lying to congress and Flynn as well?

So if change is required, it should be led by those that are the biggest and most influencial. Those that ran with almost constant degradation of Obama and HC.

peddlelies

Leroy42 wrote: »

Yes, but it was CNN mentioned specifically. The point being that CNN should concentrate on 'real' issues rather than wasting time talking about how terrible Trump is.

You know why CNN gets so much more abuse than MSNBC? MSNBC doesn't claim to be neutral. As far as the WP and NYT's go, IIRC they haven't endorsed a Republican candidate since the early 70's.

peddlelies

batgoat wrote: »

https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2019/04/supreme-court-neil-gorsuch-eighth-amendment-death-penalty-torture.html

My heart bleeds for the murdering rapist mentioned in the article.

oscarBravo

peddlelies wrote: »

My heart bleeds for the murdering rapist mentioned in the article.

So you're OK with the government torturing prison inmates?

Leroy42

peddlelies wrote: »

My heart bleeds for the murdering rapist mentioned in the article.

First they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out—because I was not a socialist.

Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a trade unionist.

Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—because I was not a Jew.

Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me.

MARTIN NIEMÖLLER

Is torture ever right? Surely this is against the very ideals of Christianity, on which the US is, according to the right, built.

everlast75

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

Maybe they should do some real reporting for a change- CNN.

As Demfad said, this is proper reporting. Just because you don't like the network, or what light the story paints Trump in, it is not "fake news".

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

Trump main donors are Israeli, not Russian.

Putting aside that it is reported that Eric Trump said that they got their financial backing from Russia, Trump Snr has no problem releasing his tax returns in the interests of full transparency then?

Cheerful Spring wrote: »

Trump also backed by the Saudis and UAE. The official media will never touch this they too afraid to go near it.

A quick google search shows multiple stories covering Trump and those countries by CNN.

https://edition.cnn.com/videos/world/2019/03/29/saudi-arabia-nuclear-technology-khashoggi-marquardt-pkg-lead-vpx.cnn

https://edition.cnn.com/2019/02/08/middleeast/jamal-khashoggi-saudi-us-intl/index.html

https://edition.cnn.com/2018/03/03/politics/robert-mueller-george-nader-uae/index.html

https://edition.cnn.com/videos/politics/2018/10/19/trump-saudis-ties-hotels-todd-dnt-tsr-vpx.cnn

ancapailldorcha

Leroy42 wrote: »

MARTIN NIEMÖLLER

Is torture ever right? Surely this is against the very ideals of Christianity, on which the US is, according to the right, built.

The US seems to be very much built on the Protestant "God helps those who help themselves" strain of Christianity which is very much focused on individuals looking after themselves with minimal interference from others.

batgoat

peddlelies wrote: »

My heart bleeds for the murdering rapist mentioned in the article.

As a society, I don't think we should be executing people. Doing so in a more extreme and cruel way is even more barbaric. Also this opens up a potential to challenge if juveniles or mentally disabled people should be allowed to be executed. You also good with that?

serfboard

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

The US seems to be very much built on the Protestant "God helps those who help themselves" strain of Christianity which is very much focused on individuals looking after themselves with minimal interference from others.

That might have been the case one time, but it's not now.

It's now very much built on dynastic maintenance where rich slackers like Trump get further than hard-working people who don't come from money.