Donald Trump presidency discussion thread V

TomOnBoard

It's Donald Trump!

Itssoeasy

What time is the mueller report being released Irish time tomorrow ? And as has been said, why do the Trump team need to be writing a counter report to something they took a victory lap on when the Barr letter was released and said what they wanted. And Trump said that mueller had acted honourably but is now yelling to anyone who will listen about how bad the investigation was. Which is it ?

Leroy42

It's any and all of them.

Trump doesn't have a position, he has soundbites until he works out what he can actually get away with.

With multiple positions and multiple statements his supporters can claim victory no matter what actually happens on any issue

duploelabs

Itssoeasy wrote: »

What time is the mueller report being released Irish time tomorrow ? And as has been said, why do the Trump team need to be writing a counter report to something they took a victory lap on when the Barr letter was released and said what they wanted. And Trump said that mueller had acted honourably but is now yelling to anyone who will listen about how bad the investigation was. Which is it ?

I'm also wondering how they're writing a counter argument to a report they've yet to see?

everlast75

https://twitter.com/johnson_carrie/status/1118611838701273088?s=19

He will hold a press conference with the press likely not to have time to read the report beforehand.

TomOnBoard

While I may take a different view depending on how Barr deals with the presser, I don't see a particular issue with Barr holding a press conference as part of the report's release.

Reporters should focus their questions on the redaction process and the decisions that were made during that process, including why he did not see fit to seek Court approval to make Grand Jury evidence (that is not part of ongoing investigations) available / visible within the report. At this point, the only value that Barr can bring to the table is to provide a strong rationale for the redactions decisions.

All other questions are meaningless until Congress and people have had an opportunity to read the report.

peddlelies

TomOnBoard wrote: »

So, now before the Mueller (redacted in technicolor) is presented to Congress and made public, Rudi Giuliani says Trump's teams of lawyers have prepared a counter-report, currently at some 140 pages that they are whittling down to 35 pages.

Giuliani was saying that long before Barr received the report from Mueller. From what I remember, it details what he considers improper conduct like intimidation, misleading court filings, conduct of FBI in 2016 etc. It's probably fairly soft stuff. I don't know if his tune has changed to be specifically about countering exact points in the Mueller report itself.

Here's a link from August 2018.

https://www.thedailybeast.com/rudy-giuliani-is-putting-together-a-counter-report-to-question-robert-muellers-legitimacy

"Though this latter section will focus on the meat of Mueller’s investigation, Giuliani acknowledged that he doesn’t actually know what Mueller’s findings will look like, making the act of putting a counter-report together a bit more challenging.

“Since we have to guess what it is, [our report so far] is quite voluminous,” Giuliani said, claiming that he would spend much of this weekend “paring it down” and that he was editing the document created by the “whole team.”

“The first half of it is 58 pages, and second half isn't done yet… It needs an executive summary if it goes over a hundred,” he added."

Cheerful Spring

Personally i like to see Trump gone. He shown himself to be a lackey of Israel and Saudi Arabia. He clearly a neoncon stooge and it bad for the world in the long run.

I don't expect anything new about collusion, that part is done. I expect more details about the obstruction of justice claims maybe tomorrow? I always felt Trump finances should be investigated, i not sure if Muller ever had this power to look above beyond the Russian conspiracy?

Itssoeasy

So it seems that one part(only part ?) of the report that will redacted according to federal prosecutors is parts relating to roger stone due to the rulings made by that judge as it’s an ongoing court case.

Hande hoche!

Seems the North Koreans have tested a weapon albeit a tactical one. Could be a once off or signalling some escalation.

everlast75

https://twitter.com/nytimes/status/1118628368910569472?s=19


This is shady as hell

mcmoustache

Hande hoche! wrote: »

Seems the North Koreans have tested a weapon albeit a tactical one. Could be a once off or signalling some escalation.

I thought Trump got them to stop testing? There was a beautiful letter and everything and there were Trump supporters telling us what an awesome job he had done, because the tests had stopped.

aloyisious

everlast75 wrote: »

https://twitter.com/nytimes/status/1118628368910569472?s=19


This is shady as hell

If Barr is doing the redacting (with AG/DOJ staffers) then surely this means the cat is already out of the bag - unless there are some things that Barr knows are better left undone. If the3 cat is out of the bag, then there may be more job vacancies in the Admin.

Manic Moran

mcmoustache wrote: »

I thought Trump got them to stop testing? There was a beautiful letter and everything and there were Trump supporters telling us what an awesome job he had done, because the tests had stopped.

Different sort of system, it was the test of a limited-range platform. Details are slim, but it seems far more likely to be something like a an ATACMS than anything which has been causing headlines. Nobody has expected the DPRK to stop building or testing tactical systems.

DPRK was in the news last week saying they were willing to go for summit number three. Seems unlikely that they'd scupper it by going back to the old ways quite yet.

From the Time report:
The recent activity, however, is likely not a banned ballistic missile test, which would jeopardize diplomatic talks meant to provide the North with concessions in return for disarmament. One of the lower level officials mentioned in the North’s report on the test — Pak Jong Chon — is known as an artillery official.

That seems to indicate a non-nuclear platform, as the nukes would be run by the Strategic Forces, not Artillery.

mcmoustache

Manic Moran wrote: »

Different sort of system...

My comment was in jest but I do appreciate your well-informed posts, particularly when it comes to military matters.

Manic Moran

As a minor detail on the nature of the US, the DoJ has decided yesterday not to appeal a District court decision stating that the Federal legislation making female genital mutilation a criminal offense is unconstitutional. The problem is that there are no grounds under which the Federal government has jurisdiction. It is already illegal at the State level anyway, but more importantly the offense does not touch anything the Feds are authorized to deal with. Most Federal laws rely on the Commerce Clause, but the court could not find a correlation between FGM and Interstate Commerce. This matches with previous court cases striking down Federal crimes of bringing a gun to a school (1995) or violence against a woman (2000), in that instance, double rape.

TomOnBoard

There's a very interesting article in today's Independent, titled "How to avoid being gaslighted by Trump when you hear what's in the Mueller report". I won't re-present the whole article here, but I thought the following excerpts were helpful in trying to deal with any 'gaslighting' that does take place, whether from Barr or other White House officials.

"With so much bad information in the ether, it’s especially important to review the facts: Throughout the campaign, during the transition period, and after inauguration, Donald Trump and his surrogates vehemently denied meeting with Russians of any stripe, for any purpose. They all lied. There were, in fact, many meetings between associates of Donald Trump and agents of Vladimir Putin. Not two or three. Not a few. Many.

"Donald Trump and his key associates really did meet with Russian ambassador Sergei Kislyak at the Mayflower Hotel on 27 April 2016. Donald Trump Jr, Jared Kushner, and Trump campaign chair Paul Manafort really did meet with Russian agents at Trump Tower on 9 June 2016; Trump really did begin tweeting about Hillary Clinton’s “missing” emails for the first time that same afternoon. Trump foreign policy adviser Carter Page and Jeff Sessions — the first senator to endorse Trump — really did meet with Kislyak at the Republican National Convention in Cleveland that same month, and they really did change the Republican platform to align the GOP’s position on Ukraine/Crimea with Putin’s.

"Sessions really did meet Kislyak in his offices on 8 September 2016. Kushner and Mike Flynn really did sneak Kislyak into a meeting at Trump Tower in December 2016, and at the time, Kushner really did seek to establish a backchannel to Putin via the Russian embassy.

"Kushner really did meet with the Russian president of a sanctioned bank in mid-December 2016. Trump surrogates Erik Prince and Elliott Broidy really did meet with a Russian wealth fund manager in the Seychelles in January 2017. And President Donald Trump really did laugh it up with Kislyak and Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov in the Oval Office on 9 May 2017, the day after firing FBI director James Comey.

"All of that really happened, despite all the denials, despite all the lies. Later today, I assume Trump will try to spin Barr’s document to fit his “no collusion, full exoneration” narrative. Indeed, his legal team has already prepared a rebuttal. Don’t believe him. To my mind at least, a document that doesn’t include reference to all of those Trump-Russian liaisons — especially if delivered second-hand by a partisan Attorney General with a history of misleading Congress — must be viewed as incomplete, and regarded with scepticism."

Here's a link to the full piece: https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/trump-response-mueller-report-twitter-russia-investigation-a8875341.html

everlast75

In addition to the above, journalists and tv stations need to up their game. They should not simply quote Barr as if what he is saying is factual.

The reality here is that Barr has behaved outrageously and the purpose of the press conference can only be to dictate the narrative, to lead people to think a certain way, when the redacted report is released.

Some have suggested that the press should not turn up. 6 Dems have requested that Barr cancel the press conference until after the release of the report.

When the press attend, I would like them to ask Barr about his previous conduct regarding his handling of the FBI incident until Bush Snr when he was Assistant A.G. and ask him how people can be expected to believe he is an honest broker in light of that, and in light of his briefing the WH before the redacted report was released.

Rod Rosenstein will be there too. He should be pressed on whether he believed the Investigation was a witch hunt, and did he really consider wearing a wire, and does he agree with Barr. that people may have been spying on Trump and his people, in circumstances where he signed some of the FISA Applications.

The questions should not relate to the report, but hone in on the inconsistent actions of Barr and Rod, in light of his defence of Barr's conduct.

Leroy42

Manic Moran wrote: »

Different sort of system, it was the test of a limited-range platform. Details are slim, but it seems far more likely to be something like a an ATACMS than anything which has been causing headlines. Nobody has expected the DPRK to stop building or testing tactical systems.

DPRK was in the news last week saying they were willing to go for summit number three. Seems unlikely that they'd scupper it by going back to the old ways quite yet.

From the Time report:
The recent activity, however, is likely not a banned ballistic missile test, which would jeopardize diplomatic talks meant to provide the North with concessions in return for disarmament. One of the lower level officials mentioned in the North’s report on the test — Pak Jong Chon — is known as an artillery official.

That seems to indicate a non-nuclear platform, as the nukes would be run by the Strategic Forces, not Artillery.

Agreeing to a new summit? Where did you hear that? What have the US done to change the dynamic after the collapse and failure of the last summit?

It was brushed away, but the last summit was a complete failure for Trump. HE had given NK pretty much everything they had wanted but got very little in return.

This new test, regardless of the exact nature of the weapon, is clearly NK signalling that they still are working on their military and making a statement. One thing I think we can all agree on it that NK are past masters at pushing the boundries, seeing just how far the US is willing to allow them to go before pulling back.

This fits perfectly into that process.

RIGOLO

mcmoustache wrote: »

I thought Trump got them to stop testing? There was a beautiful letter and everything and there were Trump supporters telling us what an awesome job he had done, because the tests had stopped.

NK has had 6 Nuclear tests

1 in 2006 approx 2 KiloTon - BUSH II

1 in 2009 approx 5 kiloton - OBAMA I
1 in 2013 approx 12 kiloton - OBAMA I
2 in 2016 16 kiloton - OBAMA II
and 25 kiloton - OBAMA II

(we all remember Obama admin "strategic patience " policy )

1 in 2017 US inteligence estimate 140 KILOTON - TRUMP I

I take it posters will see the pattern , you can see how they have increased in size.

Since the summits have started there have been no NK Nuclear tests.
Im happy with that.

Anti-Trumpers call that a loss for Trump, ergo I expect they would call the Obama 'strategic patience policy' a win for Obama, Im not sure 4 tests and a 400% increase in tactical kiloton is success.

We differ thats okay.

Peace deals take years , (IRA, Cold War, etc ) .. the anti-Trumpers call that a loss for Trump cos its taking longer than a few hours, a few days, weeks or even months.
In the meantime there have been no nuclear device tests since the summits began.

I have patience I can wait for results over time, history has already been written on how many peace deals were brokered , and that history tells us it takes time.
I guess the anti-Trumpers dont have that patience, or dont feel the same standard should be applied to Trump administration, and they want a new history to be written where international peace deals involving rogue states , and many nations should be done in under 12 months, otherwise its a failure .

They are welcome to their viewpoint I trust we all live in a free country .

Leroy42

It is not that people are impatient, Trump himself said it was all done and dusted. Calls for the Noble Prize were made.

Yet again, the fault lies with Trump himself. Rather than be willing to let things naturally happen, to let the time needed to pass, to take the small steps needed, Trump needs and wants the big win. He needs his supporters to laud him as the second coming.

When the reality, which nearly all non biased commentators stated from the outset, that this will take time, there will be ups and downs and most of it will be done behind closed doors and away from the cameras, when that reality sets in then it is only against Trump own standards that people are judging him.

He set the tone, he set the bar, you can't then come on here complaining that people are not being fair to him.

The last summit was a total abject failure. It was a failure in diplomacy, a failure in preparation and a complete failure for Trump claim of what he had achieved. He was played by NK, pure and simple.

RIGOLO

Leroy42 wrote: »

It is not that people are impatient, Trump himself said it was all done and dusted. Calls for the Noble Prize were made.

Yet again, the fault lies with Trump himself. Rather than be willing to let things naturally happen, to let the time needed to pass, to take the small steps needed, Trump needs and wants the big win. He needs his supporters to laud him as the second coming.

When the reality, which nearly all non biased commentators stated from the outset, that this will take time, there will be ups and downs and most of it will be done behind closed doors and away from the cameras, when that reality sets in then it is only against Trump own standards that people are judging him.

He set the tone, he set the bar, you can't then come on here complaining that people are not being fair to him.

The last summit was a total abject failure. It was a failure in diplomacy, a failure in preparation and a complete failure for Trump claim of what he had achieved. He was played by NK, pure and simple.

Obama is the one who left time pass..
4 NK Nuclear Tests and no summits

Trump 1 nuclear test and 2 (1/2 summits)

The last summit collapse reminded me of the collapse of the Rekjavik summit between Reagan and Gorbachev in 1986.
Thankfully at the time we had enough mature people involved in the negotiations to put that last minute collapse aside and move on with the negotiations and look where those got us.
Same as now in the Trump administration , the negotiations , embargos, talks, back channels , public statements go on .


Sure its been a win so far for the Trump Administration.

2 (1/2) summits (plus many other measures including return of US servicemen, opening up of SK-NK exchanges , NK leader visits , and most importantly 1 nuclear test, the last guy had no summits and 4 escalating tests.

Thats a win in my books.

If you prefer the last guy,
NO SUMMITS ... 4 NUCLEAR TESTS .. NO RETURN OF US SERVICEMEN .... NO THAWING IN SK-NK RELATIONS/EXCHANGES ...
your free to .

kilns

RIGOLO wrote: »

Obama is the one who left time pass..
4 NK Nuclear Tests and no summits

Trump 1 nuclear test and 2 (1/2 summits)

The last summit collapse reminded me of the collapse of the Rekjavik summit between Reagan and Gorbachev in 1986.
Thankfully at the time we had enough mature people involved in the negotiations to put that last minute collapse aside and move on with the negotiations and look where those got us.
Same as now in the Trump administration , the negotiations , embargos, talks, back channels , public statements go on .


Sure its been a win so far for the Trump Administration.

2 (1/2) summits (plus many other measures including return of US servicemen, opening up of SK-NK exchanges , NK leader visits , and most importantly 1 nuclear test, the last guy had no summits and 4 escalating tests.

Thats a win in my books.

If you prefer the last guy,
NO SUMMITS ... 4 NUCLEAR TESTS .. NO RETURN OF US SERVICEMEN .... NO THAWING IN SK-NK RELATIONS/EXCHANGES ...
your free to .

I think you hit the nail on the head there, in 1986 there were enough mature people in involved in the negotiations to ensure it survived. Unfortunately, and even his most ardent supporters will admit Trump is impulsive and vain which does not bode well

Leroy42

The last guy stuck to the agreed principle that there would be no summits unless and until NK agreed to dismantle their Nuclear program. Luckily Trump simply ignored what seemed like such a hard and fast rule so give NK the pne thing they valued more than anything else, international credibility

But again, you seem to always want to change the goalposts. I am not judging Trump summit on anything other than his own standards. He said that the NK threat had been removed, he set up a 2nd summit on the basis of getting an agreement. Clearly, had anyone been listening to people who actually understood NK, they were never likely to sign an agreement.

It is strange that you continually base your evalutation on Trump, apparently the greatest POTUS ever, against what he and many GOP would count as one of the worst.

To get this 'win' as you call it, Trump had to throw out all the previous conditions that the US had.

RIGOLO

kilns wrote: »

I think you hit the nail on the head there, in 1986 there were enough mature people in involved in the negotiations to ensure it survived. Unfortunately, and even his most ardent supporters will admit Trump is impulsive and vain which does not bode well

So far its bode'ing very well under Donald Trump 45th POTUS leadership
2 (1/2) Summits .. no nuclear tests.
Seems to me there are plenty mature people in the Trump administration taking care of the NK issue.


Perhaps you preferred the 'mature people ' in the previous administration
NO SUMMITS ... 4 NUCLEAR TESTS .. NO RETURN OF US SERVICEMEN .... NO THAWING IN SK-NK or US-NK RELATIONS/EXCHANGES ...
your free to .

On a light hearted note, the only dissapointment I have with the current US-NK situation is the Vietnam Summit commemorative coins sold out of the White House gift shop before I could get them, and so I will I have to source them elsewhere to add to my Trump Administration coin set which is growing with each major accomplishment he and his WH achieve.

Timberrrrrrrr

RIGOLO wrote: »

Obama is the one who left time pass..
4 NK Nuclear Tests and no summits

Trump 1 nuclear test and 2 (1/2 summits)

The last summit collapse reminded me of the collapse of the Rekjavik summit between Reagan and Gorbachev in 1986.
Thankfully at the time we had enough mature people involved in the negotiations to put that last minute collapse aside and move on with the negotiations and look where those got us.
Same as now in the Trump administration , the negotiations , embargos, talks, back channels , public statements go on .


Sure its been a win so far for the Trump Administration.

2 (1/2) summits (plus many other measures including return of US servicemen, opening up of SK-NK exchanges , NK leader visits , and most importantly 1 nuclear test, the last guy had no summits and 4 escalating tests.

Thats a win in my books.

If you prefer the last guy,
NO SUMMITS ... 4 NUCLEAR TESTS .. NO RETURN OF US SERVICEMEN .... NO THAWING IN SK-NK RELATIONS/EXCHANGES ...
your free to .

Yep, and the Trump the genius says he will rip up that treaty and build bigger/better weapons :rolleyes:

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/oct/20/trump-us-nuclear-arms-treaty-russia

“We’ll have to develop those weapons,” the president told reporters in Nevada after a rally. “We’re going to terminate the agreement and we’re going to pull out.”

Trump was referring to the 1987 Intermediate-range Nuclear Forces treaty (INF), which banned ground-launch nuclear missiles with ranges from 500km to 5,500km. Signed by Ronald Reagan and Mikhail Gorbachev, it led to nearly 2,700 short- and medium-range missiles being eliminated, and an end to a dangerous standoff between US Pershing and cruise missiles and Soviet SS-20 missiles in Europe.

Leroy42

NK developed their nuclear weapons, why would they need any further testing? The last test was enough to scare Trump into dropping all preconditions and agreeing to not only meet Kim but to laud him from the heavens. Saying he was a great guy, great leader, NK had great potential. Not bringing up the human rights abuses. Not even holding him responsible for the death of the US Citizen (Otto Warmbier)

As an aside, when was the last Nuclear test that the US carried out? I assume that if they haven't done so recently it proves that they no longer are interested in nuclear weapons.

TomOnBoard

everlast75 wrote: »

https://twitter.com/nytimes/status/1118628368910569472?s=19


This is shady as hell

And added to that shadyness is the fact that Barr will hold his presser 90 minutes (at least) before Congress (whatever about the public) gets the redacted report. And it will be more days before selected Members of Congress gets a less redacted version on an 'eyes only' basis.

If I was a Congressman/woman, regardless of Party, I'd be fuming at how this is being handled.

peddlelies

So... what time is the press conference? WaPo says it will be very lightly redacted.

peddlelies

TomOnBoard wrote: »

If I was a Congressman/woman, regardless of Party, I'd be fuming at how this is being handled.

They probably only talked about grand children and golf.

I find it hilarious people are in an uproar over semantics after what happened in 2016. Mueller completed an actual real investigation unimpeded and used the full force of the law in doing so.