Donald Trump presidency discussion thread V

everlast75

Christy42 wrote: »

I feel like I am missing obvious here something here but every hero venerated in the Irish state I can think of off hand was captured in 1916.

Japan's views are also different from Trump in that they accepted not everyone succeeded and that suicide was an honourable way out (I disagree with this heavily but it is different to Trump's beliefs).

Trump gave out to them for failure. For not always succeeding. It isn't like he believed that McCain should have killed himself to avoid capture (which would still be wrong) he believes that he should be magically able to dodge any and all incoming fire.

So I am left wondering why you are bringing these up instead of focusing on Trump.

I respect MM, but IMHO that was the weakest defence I've seen to date from him.

Do you think Trump made such a remark because he knows what Japan or any other country's historical position is? Of course not! He said that because he felt insecure because of what McCain did for his country and he had to just sh1t all over it because that's what he does when he's got nothing else to come back with.

Trump dodged the draft. The idea that he would have any authority to speak on the subject completely lacks any self-awarenesss and to take that an obscene level further, to criticise McCain is just repulsive, petty and, to be frank 100% on brand.

greenfield21

How is there never any in-between on this thread, it seems to me like there is just people that are 100% for trump and 100% against. It seems strange on an Irish forum that we can't have a more open view on the negatives and benefits of his policy's. Maybe there needs to be another thread setup to talk about US policy in general or another thread to discuss each of Trump's policies. I just feel like the honest debates are been silenced by the radicals on either side.

FreudianSlippers

greenfield21 wrote: »

How is there never any in-between on this thread, it seems to me like there is just people that are 100% for trump and 100% against. It seems strange on an Irish forum that we can't have a more open view on the negatives and benefits of his policy's. Maybe there needs to be another thread setup to talk about US policy in general or another thread to discuss each of Trump's policies. I just feel like the honest debates are been silenced by the radicals on either side.

But what are Trump's actual policies? As far as I can see, he doesn't actually have any. He makes a broad statement which causes a knee-jerk reaction from his cabinet or else he signs some pointless Executive Order. Then nothing happens, he makes some other statement which is usually a lie and then changes course completely. New issue: repeat the cycle.

pixelburp

greenfield21 wrote: »

How is there never any in-between on this thread, it seems to me like there is just people that are 100% for trump and 100% against. It seems strange on an Irish forum that we can't have a more open view on the negatives and benefits of his policy's. Maybe there needs to be another thread setup to talk about US policy in general or another thread to discuss each of Trump's policies. I just feel like the honest debates are been silenced by the radicals on either side.

Feel free to suggest some policies you wish to discuss that you feel aren't given enough discussion, it's an open topic despite what you're implying.

Manic Moran

everlast75 wrote: »

I respect MM, but IMHO that was the weakest defence I've seen to date from him.

Not sure how "Just as wrong in all cases" is a defense, but I guess I can't stop you from interpreting it as such. I'm just observing that it's not a uniquely held position.

I feel like I am missing obvious here something here but every hero venerated in the Irish state I can think of off hand was captured in 1916

Yes, that's precisely the problem. A Coy/35th Infantry Battalion performed probably the greatest feat of arms in Irish military history, but given that they surrendered, those Irish troops who performed magnificently in 1961 were not considered heros or venerated. They had no choice, they had survived for five days outnumbered about 30:1, not losing a man, and running out of ammunition and water, but it didn't matter: They had surrendered. As a result, the "Jadotville Jacks," as they were known, were osctracised, career-kllled, and generally swept under the carpet until about 2005. Those still alive only received their medals in 2017. All recommendations submitted by the CO for awards for valor were rejected.

So I am left wondering why you are bringing these up instead of focusing on Trump.

A little history teaching does not go amiss. You guys are doing a reasonable enough job focusing on Trump, you'll note there are a lot of things I'm not disagreeing with the thread over.

Christy42

Manic Moran wrote: »

Not sure how "Just as wrong in all cases" is a defense, but I guess I can't stop you from interpreting it as such. I'm just observing that it's not a uniquely held position.



Yes, that's precisely the problem. A Coy/35th Infantry Battalion performed probably the greatest feat of arms in Irish military history, but given that they surrendered, those Irish troops who performed magnificently in 1961 were not considered heros or venerated. They had no choice, they had survived for five days outnumbered about 30:1, not losing a man, and running out of ammunition and water, but it didn't matter: They had surrendered. As a result, the "Jadotville Jacks," as they were known, were osctracised, career-kllled, and generally swept under the carpet until about 2005. Those still alive only received their medals in 2017. All recommendations submitted by the CO for awards for valor were rejected.



A little history teaching does not go amiss. You guys are doing a reasonable enough job focusing on Trump, you'll note there are a lot of things I'm not disagreeing with the thread over.

Jadotville seems more like an unwillingness to admit massive failure in the (overseas) command and the soldiers, as proof of their failure, were swept under the carpet. Though it is an interesting read (sincerely thank you as I didn't know of it).

I have not seen any called out for cowardice and this was an Irish government happy to highlight others who surrendered (1916) so it seems unlikely to be the main reason. More that surrender of 1916 was expected while a country starting on peace keeping missions making such a horrific error as sending their own troops into a no win scenario was shameful (as opposed to the surrender itself).

Unfortunately those who made the mistakes had more power and less honour than those who suffered for those mistakes and gave everything to undo them.

I am glad to have read about it and am ashamed that my country did such a thing. It does not qualify Trump's remarks though.

I mean I sure some people have derided capture as other failures on the troops part. However there existence does not help Trump's case. They are equally as wrong and idiotic.

everlast75

Manic Moran wrote: »

Not sure how "Just as wrong in all cases" is a defense, but I guess I can't stop you from interpreting it as such. I'm just observing that it's not a uniquely held position.

yes - I understand that point.

The point I am making is that his reason for believing that to be the case differs from the various countries that have thought that in the past. The basis is different, and his is just plain malice.

In any event, can anyone please tell me whether this is normal?

https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/1138413497858101249?s=20

spacecoyote

Christy42 wrote: »

Jadotville seems more like an unwillingness to admit massive failure in the (overseas) command and the soldiers, as proof of their failure, were swept under the carpet. Though it is an interesting read (sincerely thank you as I didn't know of it).

Going off topic but an FYI...There was a movie made about it a couple of years ago...The Siege of Jadotville. Not sure how historically accurate it is. I'm sure there are aplenty of liberties taken in the name of entertainment

Brian?

Manic Moran wrote: »

Not sure how "Just as wrong in all cases" is a defense, but I guess I can't stop you from interpreting it as such. I'm just observing that it's not a uniquely held position.



Yes, that's precisely the problem. A Coy/35th Infantry Battalion performed probably the greatest feat of arms in Irish military history, but given that they surrendered, those Irish troops who performed magnificently in 1961 were not considered heros or venerated. They had no choice, they had survived for five days outnumbered about 30:1, not losing a man, and running out of ammunition and water, but it didn't matter: They had surrendered. As a result, the "Jadotville Jacks," as they were known, were osctracised, career-kllled, and generally swept under the carpet until about 2005. Those still alive only received their medals in 2017. All recommendations submitted by the CO for awards for valor were rejected.



A little history teaching does not go amiss. You guys are doing a reasonable enough job focusing on Trump, you'll note there are a lot of things I'm not disagreeing with the thread over.

I’m going to take a slight issue here. Quinlan, the CO at Jadotville, finished his career as a full colonel which is quite an achievement in the Irish army.

My grandad was in the Congo at the same time as the siege of Jadotville, he didn’t see much combat, but he spoke in glowing terms of the soldiers who fought there. They were seen as hero’s by other soldiers, but not by the command or government of the day.

Manic Moran

spacecoyote wrote: »

Going off topic but an FYI...There was a movie made about it a couple of years ago...The Siege of Jadotville. Not sure how historically accurate it is. I'm sure there are aplenty of liberties taken in the name of entertainment

There was a paper submitted to the US Army's Command and General Staff College by an Irish officer who was training there a few years ago, which was a pretty in-depth review of the engagement. The opposition really did approach over open terrain. There were only two major deviations from reality in the movie which I copped, one was the fact that part of the reason the Irish were able to hold out was because they had two (ancient) Ford armored cars, but equipped with Vickers HMGs, which can fire all day as long as they have ammunition (Very useful against a mass of folks approaching over open terrain), and the other was that the fouled water was as a result of the helicopter bringing fuel-contaminated-water, not the unexplained poisoning of the village's water tower.

Otherwise, the inevitable deviations from reality were not what I might consider 'major' in the big scheme of the story.

I’m going to take a slight issue here. Quinlan, the CO at Jadotville, finished his career as a full colonel which is quite an achievement in the Irish army.

Granted, but it's worth noting that the Jadotville folks generally did what they could do avoid mentioning their service there. Fair bit of discussion on the matter over on the military subforum, especially if you go back to the time period that the movie came out.

RIGOLO

Major achievement by the Trump adminsitration this week.

Even the Washington Post have lauded the Mexico deal ..

https://www.washingtonpost.com/gdpr-consent/?destination=%2fopinions%2f2019%2f06%2f08%2fwith-mexico-deal-trump-deals-another-blow-media-elites%2f%3f&utm_term=.e530ff6b76ed

Its behind a pay wall I will give you a snippet..

“Because President Trump emerges as a clear winner from his week-long confrontation with Mexico over our neighbor’s lax enforcement of its southern border, reflexive Trump critics will scramble to find some way of containing what is a clear Trump triumph, which came with assists by Vice President Pence and Secretary of State Mike Pompeo, who conducted the key negotiations.”

And the NY POST Editorial board also gave the deal a glowing tribute ..

https://nypost.com/2019/06/09/trumps-big-score-on-mexico-and-immigration/

“All the hysteria over President Trump’s latest tariff threat to Mexico proved wrong Friday, as the two sides reached a deal that gave Trump what he’d demanded: much more vigorous cooperation in stopping illegal Central American migrants from travelling 1,200-plus miles across Mexico to sneak into the United States.”

If this keeps up 2020 will be a landslide.

TomOnBoard

There are at least 2 elements to this, as I see it:

1) the performance of the Irish contingent as a U.N. force operating under orders; and
2) the Politicial intrigue and shenanigans that led to their having to defend against the triggered Katangan forces in the first place.


In respect of 1, the Irish were truly heroic and their achievement ignored for decades, largely because of 2... An appalling amount of cack-handed manipulation by Dag Hammersjold and his staff of the whole Congo situation, including massive deflection by his surviving staff following his death (probably from assassination while on board his airplane travelling in the area) which placed highly questionable blame on Conor Cruise O'Brien for the way the Jadotville matter was handled.(Indeed, the movie referred to earlier was very critical of O'Brien, and probably that was it greatest departure from reality. The wash-out of all those shenanigans led to the grunts on the ground being the scapegoats for decisions taken and cock-ups made in the lofty heights of the United Nations. And, the Irish Government and the Min for Defense did a huge injustice to men who were heroic in act and subsequently in their "suck-it-up" silence.

Which brings us nicely back (purely co-incidentally) to Trump: One of the few matters on which I actually agree with some of his thinking... The U.N. is an absolute disaster and Trump has called it out repeatedly for being so.. If ever a good example of dreadful U.N. behaviour, one needs look no further than how that whole Congo/Katanga situation was handled.

Anyway, for the record,

a) thanks to MM for the history lesson... Yes, we do need to reflect on the totality of events, including the roadmap of how we got here from there; and
b) why is it that when some posters (like MM) make an informed comment here, it so easily seems to lead to a flaming that would put a volcano to shame?

TomOnBoard

RIGOLO wrote: »

Major achievement by the Trump adminsitration this week.

Even the Washington Post have lauded the Mexico deal ..

https://www.washingtonpost.com/gdpr-consent/?destination=%2fopinions%2f2019%2f06%2f08%2fwith-mexico-deal-trump-deals-another-blow-media-elites%2f%3f&utm_term=.e530ff6b76ed

Its behind a pay wall I will give you a snippet..



If this keeps up 2020 will be a landslide.

You clearly neither get nor deal in nuance!

Your post is entirely unfair and is grossly misleading. The Washington Post, like many other organs of the "Main Stream Media", while regularly depicted as rabid, leftist, 'Fake News', offers space to folks who hold views that might not resonate with its overall take on the political scene as part of its commitment to ensuring the survival of a free press .

The piece that you leant upon was one such opinion piece, offered by Hugh Hewitt, who is a Post contributing columnist and "hosts a nationally syndicated radio show and is author of “The Fourth Way: The Conservative Playbook for a Lasting GOP Majority.” Mr Hewitt holds very Conservative views, and therefore to depict him and what he says as representative of, or anointed by the WaPo is simply dishonest. Mr Hewitt is entitled to his view and it is laudable that the WaPo provides him with a platform; for you to selectively quote him (especially given that he is behind a paywall) and to imply that he is speaking for the WaPo is disingenuous in the extreme!

As for quoting the NY Post, at least have the decency to acknowledge that particular organ is deemed (by Media Bias assessment) to lie to the right of the Daily Mail and just left of Fox News, and is judged be propagandist and to report misleading facts, and lies in a group of media outlets that report "nonsense that is damaging to public discourse".... That slight footnote would help us all to understand whether or not their reporting might be in any way biased.

That kind of selective propagandising is exactly why the current political discourse is so polarised....

Oh, and BTW, the MediaBias chart can be used from time to time to judge the provenance of news items. Its available on:

https://www.adfontesmedia.com/the-chart-version-3-0-what-exactly-are-we-reading/#iLightbox[gallery138]/null

Brian?

RIGOLO wrote: »

Major achievement by the Trump adminsitration this week.

Even the Washington Post have lauded the Mexico deal ..

https://www.washingtonpost.com/gdpr-consent/?destination=%2fopinions%2f2019%2f06%2f08%2fwith-mexico-deal-trump-deals-another-blow-media-elites%2f%3f&utm_term=.e530ff6b76ed

Its behind a pay wall I will give you a snippet..



And the NY POST Editorial board also gave the deal a glowing tribute ..

https://nypost.com/2019/06/09/trumps-big-score-on-mexico-and-immigration/



If this keeps up 2020 will be a landslide.

You know the plan to send troops the Mexico’s southern borders was started at least 8 weeks ago? About 7 weeks before the tariff nonsense

aloyisious

TomOnBoard wrote: »

There are at least 2 elements to this, as I see it:

1) the performance of the Irish contingent as a U.N. force operating under orders; and
2) the Politicial intrigue and shenanigans that led to their having to defend against the triggered Katangan forces in the first place.


In respect of 1, the Irish were truly heroic and their achievement ignored for decades, largely because of 2... An appalling amount of cack-handed manipulation by Dag Hammersjold and his staff of the whole Congo situation, including massive deflection by his surviving staff following his death (probably from assassination while on board his airplane travelling in the area) which placed highly questionable blame on Conor Cruise O'Brien for the way the Jadotville matter was handled.(Indeed, the movie referred to earlier was very critical of O'Brien, and probably that was it greatest departure from reality. The wash-out of all those shenanigans led to the grunts on the ground being the scapegoats for decisions taken and cock-ups made in the lofty heights of the United Nations. And, the Irish Government and the Min for Defense did a huge injustice to men who were heroic in act and subsequently in their "suck-it-up" silence.

Which brings us nicely back (purely co-incidentally) to Trump: One of the few matters on which I actually agree with some of his thinking... The U.N. is an absolute disaster and Trump has called it out repeatedly for being so.. If ever a good example of dreadful U.N. behaviour, one needs look no further than how that whole Congo/Katanga situation was handled.

Anyway, for the record,

a) thanks to MM for the history lesson... Yes, we do need to reflect on the totality of events, including the roadmap of how we got here from there; and
b) why is it that when some posters (like MM) make an informed comment here, it so easily seems to lead to a flaming that would put a volcano to shame?

Just for info only, there are still a lot of Congo Vets alive today contactable via the Irish UN Vets Assoc [IUNVA] on facebook and the association has posts in a lot of towns around Ireland. Post No 1 is located at the back pf Arbour Hill Garrison Church and Graveyard. Whilst there has been a natural decline in Vet numbers over the years, some of the Congo Vet deaths were not.

TomOnBoard

Manic Moran wrote: »

There was a paper submitted to the US Army's Command and General Staff College by an Irish officer who was training there a few years ago, which was a pretty in-depth review of the engagement.

Is that paper publicly available?

Quin_Dub

All,

The Jadotville topic is interesting and worthy of discussion, but it's not for this thread, so let's park it and get back on topic.

If someone wants to open a thread, I'm happy to move the posts over.

Thanks

Outlaw Pete

Brian? wrote: »

You know the plan to send troops the Mexico’s southern borders was started at least 8 weeks ago? About 7 weeks before the tariff nonsense

Not the numbers recently agreed to, which was on the back of the latest "tariff nonsense".....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kOd7oJQk_x0

.....but let's pretend you're right, essentially what you're saying is that Trump's making progress alright, but he's lying about the timeline. Ridiculous.

End of the day, who cares once progress is being made. Progress he has had to accomplish in ways he didn't set out to, given congress refused to help him or his administration. Many democrats even going as far as to say there was no crisis at all the past two years.

Although they deny this now despite footage of them doing just that:

https://twitter.com/TimRunsHisMouth/status/1129384994324058112

Yesterday they at least admitted in congress that there was indeed a crisis, nice of them, but guess what, now they blame Trump for causing it. That's right, they blame Trump for causing the crisis they said didn't exist :P

Truth is democrats sat on their hands for the last year refusing to provide emergency funding for the Trump administration to tackle the issues they highlighted needed to be and now when they finally come round and admit there is indeed a crisis, they have the neck to say Trump's not doing enough to remedy it.

No doubt in a year's time, if illegal border crossings and child trafficking are down in a significant way, lower than at any time in the last 25 years, let's say, the democrats will find some way of claiming Obama is the one really responsible.

Outlaw Pete

Indeed we had a thread regular who claimed there was no crisis at the border:

everlast75 wrote: »

There is no crisis at the border.

There is no urgency.

It's a manufactured problem and Trump knows it.

Unreal.

Manic Moran

TomOnBoard wrote: »

Is that paper publicly available?

I'll just post this requested link and then drop the side discussion, begging Mod indulgence.

http://cgsc.contentdm.oclc.org/utils/getdownloaditem/collection/p4013coll2/id/2990/filename/3041.pdf/mapsto/pdf/type/singleitem

everlast75

Outlaw Pete wrote: »

Indeed we had a thread regular who claimed there was no crisis at the border:



Unreal.

When was that posted?


Oh, and any chance you could address this, as you are the bastion of correcting the MSM?

everlast75 wrote: »

Can some Trump defender please tell me he didn't actually say what we see him say?

https://twitter.com/renato_mariotti/status/1137002774300889088?s=19

Midlife

everlast75 wrote: »

When was that posted?


Oh, and any chance you could address this, as you are the bastion of correcting the MSM?

The thing is Trump lies all the time to everyone. He could well have been lying to Ingram or he could have not. He will lie if asked about this. So she calls it 'fake news'.

Similarly with the above that Outlaw pete is arguing. Trumps strategy is to claim victory no matter what, eseentially lie about everything always and always claim victory and total success.

Given that's his obvious tactic, and that his backers will always agree with this interpretation of events (always, no matter what, even when they know they're wrong), of course when something may actually go right, or he's not lying, people will just assume he will.

So unfortunatly, when someone doesn't believe Trump, dismissing it as 'unreal' is wrong. They're totally justified.

Team Trump lost their rights to be given any credibility on EVERYTHING a long long time ago.

I don't believe a word that comes out of his mouth and personally, I seeeveryone here arguing for him on a par with a 13 year old kids telling me why Man Utd are the greatest football team in the world. And I'm entirely justified in that, it makes perfect sense.

Trump fans don't get to hold people to some kind of intellectual standard, or claim fake news or bias. They abandoned that path long ago. Just because one thing ligitimetly goes your way, it doesn't mean you get to adopt rational argument again.

salmocab

Midlife wrote: »

Trump fans .

Isn’t this the issue though? He has fans not political supporters. He has some strange cult status that stops people seeing anything else. It’s turned from politics into show business and is appealing to people who aren’t interested in real politics but being able to shout that our guy is great.
Not all his supporters of course but enough that the noise is very loud.

Professor Moriarty

salmocab wrote: »

Isn’t this the issue though? He has fans not political supporters. He has some strange cult status that stops people seeing anything else. It’s turned from politics into show business and is appealing to people who aren’t interested in real politics but being able to shout that our guy is great.
Not all his supporters of course but enough that the noise is very loud.

Very good point.

greenfield21

RIGOLO wrote: »

Major achievement by the Trump adminsitration this week.

Even the Washington Post have lauded the Mexico deal ..

https://www.washingtonpost.com/gdpr-consent/?destination=%2fopinions%2f2019%2f06%2f08%2fwith-mexico-deal-trump-deals-another-blow-media-elites%2f%3f&utm_term=.e530ff6b76ed

Its behind a pay wall I will give you a snippet..



And the NY POST Editorial board also gave the deal a glowing tribute ..

https://nypost.com/2019/06/09/trumps-big-score-on-mexico-and-immigration/



If this keeps up 2020 will be a landslide.

Has trump not increased troop numbers at the border by thousands over his presidency anyway and here we have Mexico adding an extra 8k troops and it is lauded as a major achievement. Am I missing something in this deal or is it complete rubbish that will have little effect. I also don't know why trump capitulated when he it looked like there was a lot more to gain. Also on the landslide in 2020 surely if these Hugh border numbers keep up this will be a big negative for him going in to re-election?

https://www.cbp.gov/newsroom/stats/sw-border-migration

FreudianSlippers

RIGOLO wrote: »

Major achievement by the Trump adminsitration this week.

Even the Washington Post have lauded the Mexico deal ..

https://www.washingtonpost.com/gdpr-consent/?destination=%2fopinions%2f2019%2f06%2f08%2fwith-mexico-deal-trump-deals-another-blow-media-elites%2f%3f&utm_term=.e530ff6b76ed

Its behind a pay wall I will give you a snippet..



And the NY POST Editorial board also gave the deal a glowing tribute ..

https://nypost.com/2019/06/09/trumps-big-score-on-mexico-and-immigration/



If this keeps up 2020 will be a landslide.

It's an opinion piece and one of the most inane opinion pieces I've read in a long time. It's a rambling incoherent article which makes no relevant points and relies on the usual Trump tactics of deflection and obfuscation.

eagle eye

salmocab wrote:

Isn’t this the issue though? He has fans not political supporters. He has some strange cult status that stops people seeing anything else.

There's two sides to that coin though. There are lots of Trump haters too. Similar to the other side which are making up lies about him and are non-stop with their insults and trash talking. They are every bit as bad as he is.
It's like reality TV.

Professor Moriarty

eagle eye wrote: »

There's two sides to that coin though. There are lots of Trump haters too. Similar to the other side which are making up lies about him and are non-stop with their insults and trash talking. They are every bit as bad as he is.
It's like reality TV.

There is no doubt that he is a polarising figure. However, IMO, fanatical Trump haters are infinitely more informed and rational than fanatical Trump supporters.

eagle eye

Professor Moriarty wrote:

There is no doubt that he is a polarising figure. However, IMO, fanatical Trump haters are infinitely more informed and rational than fanatical Trump supporters.

I can't agree with that, there are politics followers who are well informed and hate Trump but then there's the brainless group which is quite large.

volchitsa

eagle eye wrote: »

There's two sides to that coin though. There are lots of Trump haters too. Similar to the other side which are making up lies about him and are non-stop with their insults and trash talking. They are every bit as bad as he is.
It's like reality TV.

"making up lies about him" : a few examples of actual lies please, as opposed to things Trump has designated as lies?

"and are non-stop with their insults and trash talking." : well this is funny, from a Trump supporter. Meghan Kelly "bleeding from her whatever", just to take one example of both his habit of insulting and trash talking all in one?

Anyway, as POTUS, Trump is responsible for setting the tone. And that's the tone he sets, because it has been his MO for decades. So please, no pretence that he is only responding to insults, he's not. It's how he functions.