Donald Trump presidency discussion thread V

circadian

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

Judge now wondering about 'treason'. The electric chair would be a bit harsh.

While I don't agree with the death penalty, the judge isn't wrong in suggesting these crimes amount to treason. The odds of Flynn getting the chair are extremely slim but if it did happen you could be certain there'd be massive fallout from Trump's base.

Call me Al

FreudianSlippers wrote: »

According to CNN, Flynn was asked directly whether he was entrapped by the FBI and his legal team have responded that he was not.

I don't suggest that takes away any merit from what you're saying, but still very damaging to the Flynn supporters' arguments.

I completely agree, but in their minds these diehards will rationalise it all. Its the swamp, they're trying to get at Trump, And the fact that Trump says there is a witch hunt is evidence enough for them. Trump is the only one they trust. These voters don't drill down through these realities enough to challenge their alternative facts. Invariably they don't want to know the actual facts as it challenges and contradicts their world view and that's a place they aren't comfortable to go.

Professor Moriarty

Just thinking, not a great day for The Donald. His old buddy facing jail for being a liar, his 'charity' facing closure due to misappropriation of funds (by The Donald) and The Donald facing humiliation as he backs away from closing down the government. Bad day for The Donald, good day for everyone else.

Franz Von Peppercorn

circadian wrote: »

While I don't agree with the death penalty, the judge isn't wrong in suggesting these crimes amount to treason. The odds of Flynn getting the chair are extremely slim but if it did happen you could be certain there'd be massive fallout from Trump's base.

The actual crime is lying. There’s no other crime. Don’t know why the judge is even talking about treason.

Professor Moriarty

circadian wrote: »

While I don't agree with the death penalty, the judge isn't wrong in suggesting these crimes amount to treason. The odds of Flynn getting the chair are extremely slim but if it did happen you could be certain there'd be massive fallout from Trump's base.

There's no way that will happen. Can't be seen to electrocute a general. If it happens though, I'd like The Donald to hold his hand as a gesture of solidarity with his old friend.

Professor Moriarty

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

There's no way that will happen. Can't be seen to electrocute a general. If it happens though, I'd like The Donald to hold his hand as a gesture of solidarity with his old friend.

Having said that, here's the judge just now:

“You were an unregistered agent of a foreign country will serving as the National Security Adviser to the president of the United States, arguably this undermines everything this flag over here stands for.”

Pelvis

circadian wrote: »

While I don't agree with the death penalty, the judge isn't wrong in suggesting these crimes amount to treason. The odds of Flynn getting the chair are extremely slim but if it did happen you could be certain there'd be massive fallout from Trump's base.

The odds of Flynn getting the chair are 0. He's not being tried for treason. The crimes he's being accused of carry a sentence of between 0-6 months in prison.

Franz Von Peppercorn

Despite all the supposed rationality here the posts remind me of the mirror images of crazed anti obama posters when people thought him a traitor.

Of course he’s not a traitor. He lied to the fbi in an investigation that now seems to have no underlying crime. This ability of the FBI is pretty authoritarian if you ask me.

FreudianSlippers

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

The actual crime is lying. There’s no other crime. Don’t know why the judge is even talking about treason.

As the judge correctly pointed out Flynn, "A high ranking senior official of the government making false statements to the Federal Bureau of Investigation while on the physical premises of the White House [...] Arguably, you sold your country out."

Franz Von Peppercorn

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

Having said that, here's the judge just now:

“You were an unregistered agent of a foreign country will serving as the National Security Adviser to the president of the United States, arguably this undermines everything this flag over here stands for.”

Very odd to bring up Turkey.

WinnyThePoo

I see you've been following this close Franz.

Franz Von Peppercorn

FreudianSlippers wrote: »

As the judge correctly pointed out Flynn, "A high ranking senior official of the government making false statements to the Federal Bureau of Investigation while on the physical premises of the White House [...] Arguably, you sold your country out."

No I dont think that’s unarguable at all. It’s a scary country.

Franz Von Peppercorn

WinnyThePoo wrote: »

I see you've been following this close Franz.

Nope. Just today. I dint live there so it’s generally not my thing.

I’ve always believe the US law enforcement has too many powers though.

Professor Moriarty

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

Very odd to bring up Turkey.

Maybe the judge knows what he's talking about? Just a thought.

Franz Von Peppercorn

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

Maybe the judge knows what he's talking about? Just a thought.

There’s one guilty plea here. Lying to the FBI. It doesn’t look like Flynn has been charged with any other crime. That’s my understanding anyway.

FreudianSlippers

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

He lied to the fbi in an investigation that now seems to have no underlying crime.

You sure about that?

The Turkey lie was a big one and there are two indictments issued in relation to that this week.

The discussions with Kislyak may be very relevant to the broader Mueller investigation.

In any event, lying to the FBI is rightfully a serious crime and Flynn knew about it. Regardless of the outcome, it is correct to prosecute people for lying to the FBI.

FreudianSlippers

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

There’s one guilty plea here. Lying to the FBI. It doesn’t look like Flynn has been charged with any other crime. That’s my understanding anyway.

I think you're taking a (presumably) glib statement about the death penalty by a poster here, and a question asked by the Judge to Flynn a bit too seriously.

Professor Moriarty

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

There’s one guilty plea here. Lying to the FBI. It doesn’t look like Flynn has been charged with any other crime. That’s my understanding anyway.

It's the importance of the lies and their implications that are important. It's not like he was telling them the shop had run out of ice cream.

jooksavage

Will be very surprised if Flynn doesn't get jail time now.

I don't know about Flynn but his jumped-up scumbag of a son who was apparently involved in his father's scheming with Turkey, has showed zero contrition, regularly mouthing off on Twitter. Whatever about Flynn Sr, it seems like junior was underestimating the seriousness of the crime.

FreudianSlippers

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

There’s one guilty plea here. Lying to the FBI. It doesn’t look like Flynn has been charged with any other crime. That’s my understanding anyway.

You understand that's how plea deals work, right?

FreudianSlippers

jooksavage wrote: »

Will be very surprised if Flynn doesn't get jail time now.

I don't know about Flynn but his jumped-up scumbag of a son who was apparently involved in his father's scheming with Turkey, has showed zero contrition, regularly mouthing off on Twitter. Whatever about Flynn Sr, it seems like junior was underestimating the seriousness of the crime.

That's the crux of it I think. If Flynn goes ahead with sentencing today (after what the Judge has hinted about regarding jail time) then he's willing to take the hit to protect his son from something.

Franz Von Peppercorn

FreudianSlippers wrote: »

You sure about that?

The Turkey lie was a big one and there are two indictments issued in relation to that this week.

The discussions with Kislyak may be very relevant to the broader Mueller investigation.

In any event, lying to the FBI is rightfully a serious crime and Flynn knew about it. Regardless of the outcome, it is correct to prosecute people for lying to the FBI.

Can’t agree with that unless there’s an underlying crime.

jooksavage

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

Despite all the supposed rationality here the posts remind me of the mirror images of crazed anti obama posters when people thought him a traitor.

Of course he’s not a traitor. He lied to the fbi in an investigation that now seems to have no underlying crime. This ability of the FBI is pretty authoritarian if you ask me.

I was listening to the Lawfare guys talk about this recently. Not all lies are equal. I remembers some legal experts being quite surprised at how everyone was presuming Flynn would get a lenient sentence, opining that when the judge considered Flynn's position at the time of the crime and the potential consequences if his wrongdoing had gone undiscovered, it would be unusual indeed if Flynn didn't do some time.

Franz Von Peppercorn

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

It's the importance of the lies and their implications that are important. It's not like he was telling them the shop had run out of ice cream.

What’s the underlying crime? What justice was he obstructing?

mcmoustache

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

Can’t agree with that unless there’s an underlying crime.

Are you getting legal advice from Alan Dershowitz?

FreudianSlippers

jooksavage wrote: »

I was listening to the Lawfare guys talk about this recently. Not all lies are equal. I remembers some legal experts being quite surprised at how everyone was presuming Flynn would get a lenient sentence, opining that when the judge considered Flynn's position at the time of the crime and the potential consequences if his wrongdoing had gone undiscovered, it would be unusual indeed if Flynn didn't do some time.

A bit more flesh to what the Judge said earlier and, I have to say, that I agree 100%

"I'm going to be frank with you -- this crime is very serious," Sullivan told Flynn. He noted that the crimes had been committed by a high-level security official, "in the West Wing" of the White House. The judge also said he would take Flynn's 33 years of military service into consideration, but expressed dismay that "all along, you were an unregistered agent of a foreign country while serving as the national security adviser to the United States."

Emphasis mine.

mcmoustache

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

What’s the underlying crime? What justice was he obstructing?

Logan Act and FARA type violations. The sentencing memo from Mueller is online and perfectly readable.

FreudianSlippers

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

What’s the underlying crime? What justice was he obstructing?

The offence is lying to the FBI as you seem to understand when it suits you. It's not lying to the FBI to obstruct an actual crime that we can prove right now.

Franz Von Peppercorn

mcmoustache wrote: »

Are you getting legal advice from Alan Dershowitz?

No but I think his argument is correct.

Look you are all partisans for a party in another country. If this was a republican led special prosecutor against the Democrats (and my guess is every single administration from now on will have some of these shenanigans) then your attitude would be different. Mine would be the same.

My attitude is that the FBI has far too many powers. In this case. In the Martha Stewart case where she hadn’t engaged in a crime except lying. In the long campaign against Clinton where there were dozens of arrests for obstruction because the prosecutors weren’t getting the answers they wanted.

I mean there are people here who think Flynn should get the chair. Madness. I’ll bow out though as there’s no point attacking a echo chamber.

FreudianSlippers

https://twitter.com/tjryan93/status/1075084217460105217