Donald Trump presidency discussion thread V

Franz Von Peppercorn

FreudianSlippers wrote: »

The offence is lying to the FBI as you seem to understand when it suits you. It's not lying to the FBI to obstruct an actual crime that we can prove right now.

I dont understand what you mean by an actual crime. It’s not actually illegal to lie non materially. In short the lie should be material to a case. What other case?

FreudianSlippers

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

No but I think his argument is correct.

Look you are all partisans for a party in another country. If this was a republican led special prosecutor against the Democrats (and my guess is every single administration from now on will have some of these shenanigans) then your attitude would be different. Mine would be the same.

My attitude is that the FBI has far too many powers. In this case. In the Martha Stewart case where she hadn’t engaged in a crime except lying. In the long campaign against Clinton where there were dozens of arrests for obstruction because the prosecutors weren’t getting the answers they wanted.

I mean there are people here who think Flynn should get the chair. Madness. I’ll bow out though as there’s no point attacking a echo chamber.

I've literally never heard someone suggesting that lying to a federal law enforcement agency about anything shouldn't be illegal. :eek:

Professor Moriarty

FreudianSlippers wrote: »

https://twitter.com/tjryan93/status/1075084217460105217

He wondered if he could have been charged with treason though. Semantics.

Franz Von Peppercorn

FreudianSlippers wrote: »

https://twitter.com/tjryan93/status/1075084217460105217

Judge got a talking to. Ok I’m out.

(Trump still deserves impeachment though)

Professor Moriarty

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

I dont understand what you mean by an actual crime. It’s not actually illegal to lie non materially. In short the lie should be material to a case. What other case?

What? So this case is based on a wrong premise? You should get on to the Justice Dept immediately and stop this show trial.

FreudianSlippers

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

I dont understand what you mean by an actual crime. It’s not actually illegal to lie non materially. In short the lie should be material to a case. What other case?

I'm a lawyer, albeit not a criminal lawyer, but I don't think it's very hard for a layperson to understand that what you're saying is just incorrect.

18 U.S. Code &#167 wrote: »

(a) Except as otherwise provided in this section, whoever, in any matter within the jurisdiction of the executive, legislative, or judicial branch of the Government of the United States, knowingly and willfully—

(1) falsifies, conceals, or covers up by any trick, scheme, or device a material fact;
(2) makes any materially false, fictitious, or fraudulent statement or representation; or
(3) makes or uses any false writing or document knowing the same to contain any materially false, fictitious, or fraudulent statement or entry;
shall be fined under this title, imprisoned not more than 5 years or, if the offense involves international or domestic terrorism (as defined in section 2331), imprisoned not more than 8 years, or both. If the matter relates to an offense under chapter 109A, 109B, 110, or 117, or section 1591, then the term of imprisonment imposed under this section shall be not more than 8 years.

Either the lie can be material of the fact can be material. We know this is a fundamental part of the Mueller investigation, plus, two indictments have been filed as a result of Flynn's cooperation. That makes both the lie and the fact material.

Leroy42

Jebus, its some fall from grace for Flynn all the same.

33 years of military service (I know nothing about it but assume since he was a General that he was highly decorated and served with honor) and had just become the NSA and now he is standing trial for lying to the FBI.

What a waste of a great legacy. What a waste of a great name, a proud serving to your country. And for what? So a millionaire could lie and debase the office of POTUS?

Regardless of the extent of what Flynn actually did, I trust that when he is alone with his thoughts that he realises that whatever about selling his country out, he sold himself out for the promises of a con man.

FreudianSlippers

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

Judge got a talking to. Ok I’m out.

(Trump still deserves impeachment though)

What are you talking about? Judge got a talking to?

He recessed alone in chambers whilst Flynn and his lawyers discussed whether to proceed with sentencing. Can we at least attempt to live in reality in the politics forum and leave the creative writing to elsewhere?

Itssoeasy

It seems the judge is walking back his comments back after he used the word treason.

UsedToWait

FreudianSlippers wrote: »

I'm a lawyer, albeit not a criminal lawyer, but I don't think it's very hard for a layperson to understand that what you're saying is just incorrect.

I don't believe the poster believes it himself.

Just popped in to occupy the thread for a few pages with more feigned ignorance / firehose tactics.

FreudianSlippers

Sentencing going to be delayed - defence "willing to take up Judge's offer" and have now asked to delay sentencing.

UsedToWait

FreudianSlippers wrote: »

Sentencing going to be delayed

Is there a stream anyone's listening to / watching on this, or is it all Twitter?
Stuck in work for another hour..

FreudianSlippers

UsedToWait wrote: »

Is there a stream anyone's listening to / watching on this, or is it all Twitter?
Stuck in work for another hour..

Twitter and I have CNN on in the office - I "had it on in the background" earlier, but who am I kidding I've completely abandoned doing actual work!

We're keeping you updated here anyway!

FreudianSlippers

FreudianSlippers wrote: »

Sentencing going to be delayed - defence "willing to take up Judge's offer" and have now asked to delay sentencing.

As if just to rebuke Franz's earlier point...

https://twitter.com/tjryan93/status/1075086729256886272


Prosecutors have also accepted sentencing delay.

20Cent

UsedToWait wrote: »

Is there a stream anyone's listening to / watching on this, or is it all Twitter?
Stuck in work for another hour..

The Guardian has a good livestream about it. White house has called a press briefing for today as well, Trumps charity shut down. Things starting to unravel for him.

circadian

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

I mean there are people here who think Flynn should get the chair. Madness. I’ll bow out though as there’s no point attacking a echo chamber.

I haven't seen anyone suggesting he should get the chair to be honest.

Hurrache

Itssoeasy wrote: »

It seems the judge is walking back his comments back after he used the word treason.

Just a clarification as to what he said.

batgoat

circadian wrote: »

I haven't seen anyone suggesting he should get the chair to be honest.

Yep, one poster said that it would be a bit harsh if he got the chair when treason got mentioned. Also the poster is surely aware that perjuring one's self is criminal in most countries so this isn't particularly different.

Professor Moriarty

batgoat wrote: »

Yep, one poster said that it would be a bit harsh if he got the chair when treason got mentioned. Also the poster is surely aware that perjuring one's self is criminal in most countries so this isn't particularly different.

I said it would be harsh if he got the chair when the judge mentioned treason. I was being facetious.

dr.fuzzenstein

The Trump charity affair almost goes unnoticed amidst all the hullabaloo.

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/live/2018/dec/18/michael-flynn-sentencing-donald-trump-latest-live-updates?page=with:block-5c191b5de4b0cebe76177075#block-5c191b5de4b0cebe76177075

Underwood alleges Trump used his foundation for personal benefit, including aiding his presidential campaign.

“Our petition detailed a shocking pattern of illegality involving the Trump Foundation – including unlawful coordination with the Trump presidential campaign, repeated and willful self-dealing, and much more. This amounted to the Trump Foundation functioning as little more than a checkbook to serve Mr. Trump’s business and political interests,” Underwood said.

prawnsambo

Leroy42 wrote: »

Jebus, its some fall from grace for Flynn all the same.

33 years of military service (I know nothing about it but assume since he was a General that he was highly decorated and served with honor) and had just become the NSA and now he is standing trial for lying to the FBI.

What a waste of a great legacy. What a waste of a great name, a proud serving to your country. And for what? So a millionaire could lie and debase the office of POTUS?

Regardless of the extent of what Flynn actually did, I trust that when he is alone with his thoughts that he realises that whatever about selling his country out, he sold himself out for the promises of a con man.

As my mother used to say "He fell in with a bad crowd".

Probably not too far from the truth. But there's also the lure of big money in civvie street when you retire and that always comes with a moral price tag unless you are like Caesar's wife. And I'd say that's difficult enough in the grubby precincts of Washington.

Water John

The AG of NY removing the Directors from sitting on any non profit Board in NY.
Basically failed in their fiduciary duties, that's serious. Also funds must be returned.

Itssoeasy

I have to say the AG of New York and the SDNY don't mess about.

mcmoustache

Captain Obvious wrote: »

An entire floor of the DC courthouse was sealed off for a secret grand jury case today. A lot of speculation that Trump has been subpoenaed to testify.

https://www.ajc.com/news/national-govt--politics/entire-floor-federal-courthouse-sealed-off-for-mystery-case/JyerATnO5wL4gJKcS6nVJP/

More on this. It appears to be about a business form another country.





While it could be Russia, it could also be others and I'm not being sarcastic. If I had to guess, I'd go with Rosneft or Deutsche Bank but honestly, it's only a guess.


Lets just say that it has nothing to do with Hillary Clinton, 911 or Uranium One.

EDIT:

It's a company owned by a country so not Deutsche Bank. I'm going with Rosneft.

everlast75

Itssoeasy wrote: »

I have to say the AG of New York and the SDNY don't mess about.

Underwood is a national treasure.

Maddow did a small segment on her months ago, before her appointment. She takes no prisoners

everlast75

VTB is my guess.

They were under sanctions from the US and had agreed the finance for Trump Tower.

If they have the docs on approval for the tower it'll prove how far along the project went before it was scuppered and if there were promises made in exchange for the finance.

Itssoeasy

everlast75 wrote: »

Underwood is a national treasure.

Maddow did a small segment on her months ago, before her appointment. She takes no prisoners

On her show was it ? I'll have to look for that. She does seem to take the "spare no timber" approach when going after people.

mcmoustache

everlast75 wrote: »

VTB is my guess.

They were under sanctions from the US and had agreed the finance for Trump Tower.

If they have the docs on approval for the tower it'll prove how far along the project went before it was scuppered and if there were promises made in exchange for the finance.

This is a more realistic possibility than my guess. Mine was more hopeful - I'd like that part of the Steel Dossier to be confirmed.


But VTA is certainly a good one.

brendanwalsh

How's the e3 visa status looking for us? Is senate sitting today to vote?

amandstu

everlast75 wrote: »

Underwood is a national treasure.

Maddow did a small segment on her months ago, before her appointment. She takes no prisoners

I remember that. Didn't someone have to resign before she took the job?