Donald Trump presidency discussion thread V

everlast75

RIGOLO wrote: »

So you dont support PUTIN attempts to make RUSSIA the largest Organic Farm Producer in the world ?
Do you support PUTINS complete ban of ALL GM food crops ?

I thought the liberal left were predominantly organic, and anti GM foods and big phama-bio nvolvement in the growing of our food.

Shouldnt they be lauding Putin for the measures he has taken to turn the wast Steppes of Russia into an organic oasis.

This article is from 2015, Putins work on organic farming stretches back that far...
I guess the liberal left organinc Green supporters will have to figure out if they embrace Putins orgnanic farming measures or if as they do with ALL uncomfortable truths , simply ignore it and trash the orange hair man ..

Putin: Russia Will be World’s Largest Supplier of Healthy Organic Food
https://sustainablepulse.com/2015/12/03/putin-russia-will-be-worlds-largest-supplier-of-healthy-organic-food/

That's hands down one of three funniest things I've ever read online.

A defence to Putin murdering people is he grows certain types of vegetables!?

Hilarious. Kudos!

RIGOLO

everlast75 wrote: »

That's hands down one of three funniest things I've ever read online.

A defence to Putin murdering people is he grows certain types of vegetables!?

Hilarious. Kudos!

Is Russia a product of Putin or is Putin a product of Russia.

If it wasnt Putin , there would be a million other Russians lining up to take his place and do exactly what he has done.
You do know how Russian regional elections work and how succesfull the All Russia party is, you do know they took over 75% in the last presidential election.

The world is complicated , often too complicated for many to embrace.

So do Greens embrace Putins efforts to create an Organic oasis in the Steppes or do they condem Putin and wait for a replacement they can endorse , whihc is not going to happen in anyones lifetime.

Only a left anti-Trumper with excessive TDS could find million of deaths funny .. heh its a free country , if you find 100 million deaths under socialism gone awry funny , then your free too.

listermint

3 out of 10.


You are only getting worse. Might be a symptom of your sources of news. Presuming RT is core to that.

Brian?

RIGOLO wrote: »

Is Russia a product of Putin or is Putin a product of Russia.

If it wasnt Putin , there would be a million other Russians lining up to take his place and do exactly what he has done.
You do know how Russian regional elections work and how succesfull the All Russia party is, you do know they took over 75% in the last presidential election.

The world is complicated , often too complicated for many to embrace.

So do Greens embrace Putins efforts to create an Organic oasis in the Steppes or do they condem Putin and wait for a replacement they can endorse , whihc is not going to happen in anyones lifetime.

Only a left anti-Trumper with excessive TDS could find million of deaths funny .. heh its a free country , if you find 100 million deaths under socialism gone awry funny , then your free too.

So it’s changed from “liberal left” to “greens” who should support Putin?

Who’s laughing at 100m people dying? No one. People are laughing at your posts.

Christy42

everlast75 wrote: »

Ah right.

You asked for an example and I gave you one. Now you say that's not good enough. Not a strawman argument - but surely there's a name for that?

You then go on to say that Putin is your example of what presedential means (magnitsky would disagree). That's quite the indication of how you believe a person in power should act, given he's a dictator who jails his political opponents at the very least and assassinates others.

You then cite Trump sticking a finger up at political correctness as one good thing he did. This is exactly the type of minimalistic thing he could do. Give him a cookie!

He is the most powerful men in the world and ?*that's* what he has done that springs to your mind?

Utter utter nonsense.

I would add that Trump is not anti PC. He just wants to change who it refers. Insulting Mexicans is good and anti PC. Kneeling at a football game is entirely politically incorrect and anyone who does it should lose their job.

Similarly people who insult Trump are mean or nasty. Trump is free to insult who he likes.

Saying Trump is anti PC is a complete lie. He has just tried to change who gets protected by it.

Midlife

Kimsang wrote: »

Trump got elected and BRexit happened because of the left.

You seem to be very eager to oversimplify things to fit your current viewpoint.

I can easily state that Trump got elected and Brexit happened because continued and rising inequality caused a rejection of the status quo.

Or Trump got elected and Brexit happened because in both cases the opponent ran a bad campaign.

Or Trump got elected and Brexit happened because they both legitimised racism

All of these are correct.

pixelburp

Kimsang wrote: »

While quippy, your strawman forgets the part of my argument where extremism is allowed to breed within the left. Trump got elected and BRexit happened because of the left.

Completely off-topic but that assertion isn't just false, it's a gross simplification of the troubled 40 year relationship Britain has had with the EU, coupled with David Cameron's arrogant gamble with a poorly thought, poorly structured referendum. And that's before you get into the rank deceit of the campaign itself. Left and Right had nothing to do with it (especially as Corbyn, possible the most left Labour leader in years, is vehemently anti-EU himself).

If you insist on othering & making "The Left" to blame for every political foible, then at least choose those over which they had actual blame or control. And trying to conflate European leftism with American leftism is again a gross simplification; Bernie Sanders would not be a maverick in many EU countries.

As to Trump, no, The Left can't be blamed here either, because there's no way on earth you could claim that 2016 election came down to Left vs. Right. It was Establishment vs. well, the Establishment masquerading itself as a voice for the disenfranchised. The most you could say was that many centrists or left-of-centrists passed their vote to a 3rd party due to the presumption Clinton (about as right wing a candidate as the Democrats could conjure up, and woefully unelectable. "Pokémon Go to the polls" being possibly the worst soundbite I've heard from a serious politican) would walk the election. You can spin identity politics here and there but this was not the main narrative by any stretch.

The greatest success Trump managed was convincing the Flyover & Swing States that a New York Real Estate Billionaire with questionable credit lines, was a plucky underdog against the Washington Swamp. Trump cares about Trump, and injecting ones belief systems (he's so anti PC!) is the height of projection.

Igotadose

RIGOLO wrote: »

Black unemployment rate is at its lowest .

Going up, though: https://www.apnews.com/e1afa3f19a054540a7c34ca193bdd9ae

Still 2x white unemployment. And basically, continued the drop that it, along with all the unemployment rates, has been undergoing since 2010 when they were at their highest. https://www.theroot.com/black-unemployment-rate-for-april-90-percent-higher-tha-1834567625

Midlife

Piece in the guardian today that black citizens of Chicago live 30 years shorter than their white counterpart.

That is so massivly massivly ****ed. The inequality in that country is simply unreal and it's gotten significantly worse in the last 20 years.

Professor Moriarty

Midlife wrote: »

Piece in the guardian today that black citizens of Chicago live 30 years shorter than their white counterpart.

That is so massivly massivly ****ed. The inequality in that country is simply unreal and it's gotten significantly worse in the last 20 years.

Nothing to with The Donald. He's doing everything he can to drain the swamp, bring people together and eliminate socio-economic inequality. Someone will be along shortly to explain how.

Kimsang

SNIP.

everlast75

Can't figure out whether DJT supporters were big fans of Putin before DJT got elected or if its just a recent thing.

Kimsang

Leroy42 wrote: »

Kim sang, what is your definition of political correctness as I fear we may be talking about two different things?

You mentioned that it had some merit, but is either too much or massaged wrong. Could you clarify what you mean?

And you mentioned shame and guilt. There is nothing inherently wrong with either of these, in fact society relies on them. It is when they are abused, for example religion using guilt to control, that they become a problem.

Do you think it wrong that people should feel shame for hurting others?

Do you think its wrong for others to completely mis represent other people?

I wrote some large posts, with lots of links to what I'm talking about, so I'm not happy defining one word out of context.

I'm saying we're MOVING FROM a GUILT to a SHAME CULTURE.

the left has culturally adopted:
Group Sin
Group Offence
Vicarious Sin
Vicarious Offence
OR DO YOU DISAGREE?

Are you seriously insinuating, I don't know "it wrong that people should feel shame for hurting others?" Talk about going for low hanging fruit.

Kimsang

everlast75 wrote: »

Ah right.

You asked for an example and I gave you one. Now you say that's not good enough. Not a strawman argument - but surely there's a name for that?

You then go on to say that Putin is your example of what presedential means (magnitsky would disagree). That's quite the indication of how you believe a person in power should act, given he's a dictator who jails his political opponents at the very least and assassinates others.

You then cite Trump sticking a finger up at political correctness as one good thing he did. This is exactly the type of minimalistic thing he could do. Give him a cookie!

He is the most powerful men in the world and ?*that's* what he has done that springs to your mind?

Utter utter nonsense.

Are you for real? This completely flies in the face of the spirit of my posts. But to be expected from the people that continue to mis-represent me in this thread.

I asked for an example of how Trump is shown in a good light by the media.
You said he was called presidential.
I said Putin is also described as presidential, and this is hardly a good light.
Then you say

"You then go on to say that Putin is your example of what presedential means "

When I debate Christians, Jews, Creationists, climate deniers etc. they are unfailingly polite, respectful, thoughtful, discerning, & listen to my arguments. Far Left SJWs do not. They simply look for fault & pounce - Michael Shermer

StringerBell

Kimsang wrote: »

StringerBell wrote: »

Out of curiosity kimsang, what site is it you would most often copy paste from?

What... You can't tell?!?!?

First I was a far right troll, then stupid and ignorant, then a daily caller reader, then my morale compass was off, then a Joe Rogan fan, now finally i'm 'a copy paster'.

You guys are hilarious, good job. Completely ignore arguments and focus on ad hominem. You toe the party line well, well done NPC.

Huh? You guys?

If you don't want to say that's cool, I was just curious after seeing a few of your posts.

All you had to do was say you didn't wanna say, I've no idea what the rant is about. Are you ok dude?

Kimsang

Midlife wrote: »

You seem to be very eager to oversimplify things to fit your current viewpoint.

I can easily state that Trump got elected and Brexit happened because continued and rising inequality caused a rejection of the status quo.

Or Trump got elected and Brexit happened because in both cases the opponent ran a bad campaign.

Or Trump got elected and Brexit happened because they both legitimised racism

All of these are correct.

I believe it is you that has proved to oversimplify things with this three sentence post.

I have outlined and detailed my position in several longer posts earlier, if you care to critique them. Only professor moriarty has tried yet, but he has since given up to only construct strawmen.

Kimsang

StringerBell wrote: »

Huh? You guys?

If you don't want to say that's cool, I was just curious after seeing a few of your posts.

All you had to do was say you didn't wanna say, I've no idea what the rant is about. Are you ok dude?

I genuinely apologize if you meant it in good faith. I felt attacked by the insinuation that I copy and paste things from websites.

I have been paying attention to politics especially closely since Trump got elected, and what I'm seeing worries me. I hope you can see by the reactions and replies I get. There are always underlying insinuation and it gets tiresome.

I hear arguments from people, then remember something I've read or seen, and google it and reference it.

For example, this dogpiling on me reminds of what Douglas Murray spoke about when he talks about the 'self-correcting left'.

Thargor

Kimsang wrote: »

What you don't realize is that when these people win power, they are the first lined up against a wall and shot. Then the real revolution begins.

Yuri Bezmenov - KGB Defector on "Useful Idiots" and the True Face of Communism

1984 (!)

WTF does that have to with the post you were replying to? Its just rambling infowars nonsense lol

everlast75

Kimsang wrote: »

I genuinely apologize if you meant it in good faith. I felt attacked by the insinuation that I copy and paste things from websites.

I have been paying attention to politics especially closely since Trump got elected, and what I'm seeing worries me. I hope you can see by the reactions and replies I get. There are always underlying insinuation and it gets tiresome.

I hear arguments from people, then remember something I've read or seen, and google it and reference it.

Some straight questions then for you.

1) did you read the Mueller report
2) if so, do you agree with the content. If not, what parts do you not agree with
3) if not why have you not read it
4) do you have any problem with trump lying 10,000 plus times
5) do you have any issue with his history of tax fraud
6) do you think the 16 women who have accused him of sexual assault or rape are liars
7) do you think he is immoral
8) do you think he is a narcissist
9) do you think that he should disclose his tax records

You claim people misrepresent what you say here. Above are questions which should set out your stall quite well.

Kimsang

everlast75 wrote: »

Some straight questions then for you.

1) did you read the Mueller report

God no

2) if so, do you agree with the content. If not, what parts do you not agree with

N/A Can't disagree if I haven't read it.

3) if not why have you not read it

I know everyone was happy with Mueller leading the investigation.
I watched the statement from Mueller.
1st part)(Interference into the 2016 presidential election"
-Russia did interfere(big surprise)
-Insufficient evidence to charge a broader conspiracy

2nd part) Results and analysis of obstruction of justice investigation involving the president.
I have no doubt Trump has attempted to obstruct justice. Thankfully the Americans have a good system of checks in balances in place.
-Sitting president can not be charged with a federal crime while sitting in office(big surprise)(unconstitutional)
-No evidence the president did not commit a crime either.

4) do you have any problem with trump lying 10,000 plus times

Sometimes yes, sometimes no. Give it can better explain.

5) do you have any issue with his history of tax fraud

Yes this is the biggest problem I have with him. It shows a stark change in our culture from people on the right to allow him to run without releasing his tax returns.

6) do you think the 16 women who have accused him of sexual assault or rape are liars

This is the kind of s*** that is wrong that I'm pointing out. Exactly this. Do you have any evidence that these 16 women were telling the truth should be the way to frame the question in a decent civil society.

7) do you think he is immoral

Yes

8) do you think he is a narcissist

I have stated many times, nearly everyone who knows anything about Trump agrees he is.

9) do you think that he should disclose his tax records

yes...


I have 2 question for you.

1. Why do my arguments continually get mis-represented in this thread, by otherwise sane and intelligent people. The same people that are oh so happy to nit-pick the smallest details from the Mueller report?

Do you think it wrong that people should feel shame for hurting others?

You then cite Trump sticking a finger up at political correctness as one good thing he did. This is exactly the type of minimalistic thing he could do. Give him a cookie!

uou seem to be very eager to oversimplify things to fit your current viewpoint.

Stop comparing people to Trump. They are no where near as bad he is. 10,000 lies. Calling people walking by a Nazi flag fine people. No one else in the west is matching that except some who support him.

Your argument is "lefties bad!". If this is the entirety of your argument, we get. Well done. Thanks for stopping by. Good lad.

2. Do you agree we are allowing the left to censor intellectualism, and that the left is making sweeping changes in our culture in regards to group and individual identity and guilt/shame, swapping the innocent until proven guilty and how that affects our society.

everlast75

Kimsang wrote: »

I have two question for you.

1. Why do my arguments continually get mis-represented in this thread, by otherwise sane and intelligent people. The same people that are oh so happy to nit-pick the smallest details from the Mueller report.


2. Do you agree we are allowing the left to censor intellectualism, and that the left is making sweeping changes in our culture in regards to group and individual identity and guilt/shame and how that affects our society.

1) to be honest, your answers can be all over the place. This is why i asked specific questions - to get specific answers.

2) in a word, no.

I think the pendulum has swing a little too far back and has over corrected what went before. But on balance, I'd prefer to live in a word where people have to watch what they say as opposed to living in a world where people can say what the **** they like and be damned if anyone is offended or hurt.

I believe that some trump supporters see him as a leader who says what he wants and that gives them licence to do so too. However, i find that most who have a problem with PC want to use racial, misogynist or other slurs and feel like they couldn't before Trump "gave the finger" to the PC brigade.

PC isn't the reason why people can't call black people the n word. Respect is the reason why they can't. Trump won't change that.

You also mentioned the allegations against Trump. You have a point. If woman A accusers a man of rape, the only way he can vindicate his name is to sue. He can then be portrayed as the villain either way. Its a tricky question indeed.

However, 16 women have accused him and it's hard to believe they are all lying. One notable case is his second wife who accused him of rape while married under oath. Couple that with the access Hollywood tape when he describes dodgy at best and sexual assault at worst behaviour. The latest accuser told two witnesses at the time and her story has remained consistent since then, nor has she profited from in in achieving her current highly regarded job.

So, if it were an average joe being accused, i could have some sympathy. But this is Trump here, a man with armies of lawyers and the mantra that he sues anyone who crosses him. Well, have at it then Donny.

relax carry on

Look, those who still support Trump at this stage will never be convinced on any single argument you make here. They've dug themselves in for the long haul.

What I'm interested in is why do they still support him knowing what we know about Trump the man, Trump the businessman and Trump the president? I mean the only good thing I can say about Trump's presidency is that maybe it may make Americans pay more attention to their political systems, their society and their economy a bit more, because somehow a clearly unfit individual was able to rise to their highest office and impact everything.

Professor Moriarty

People who support their arguments by simply dropping in random YouTube videos or linking to the Daily Caller are clutching at straws.

Kimsang

everlast75 wrote: »

1) to be honest, your answers can be all over the place. This is why i asked specific questions - to get specific answers.

2) in a word, no.

I think the pendulum has swing a little too far back and has over corrected what went before. But on balance, I'd prefer to live in a word where people have to watch what they say as opposed to living in a world where people can say what the **** they like and be damned if anyone is offended or hurt.

I believe that some trump supporters see him as a leader who says what he wants and that gives them licence to do so too. However, i find that most who have a problem with PC want to use racial, misogynist or other slurs and feel like they couldn't before Trump "gave the finger" to the PC brigade.

PC isn't the reason why people can't call black people the n word. Respect is the reason why they can't. Trump won't change that.

You also mentioned the allegations against Trump. You have a point. If woman A accusers a man of rape, the only way he can vindicate his name is to sue. He can then be portrayed as the villain either way. Its a tricky question indeed.

However, 16 women have accused him and it's hard to believe they are all lying. One notable case is his second wife who accused him of rape while married under oath. Couple that with the access Hollywood tape when he describes dodgy at best and sexual assault at worst behaviour. The latest accuser told two witnesses at the time and her story has remained consistent since then, nor has she profited from in in achieving her current highly regarded job.

So, if it were an average joe being accused, i could have some sympathy. But this is Trump here, a man with armies of lawyers and the mantra that he sues anyone who crosses him. Well, have at it then Donny.

I'll work backwards if that's ok. I appreciate your considered response.

Trump is probably the most popular person in the world, (maybe ronaldo?) The amount of allegations should be weighted as such

Pc isn't the reason people call black people N, i agree with you. PC is the reason why the FA in England tried to stop Spurs fans from using the word(which they reclaimed) as Yid. It was a slur used by rivals to attack them, similar to how gay people in the 90s reclaimed words used against them. Imagine if the PC police were around back then telling gay people not to use what words they want to use.

“If Spurs fans genuinely are going to stop using this word then it should be our decision,” chairman Darren Alexander said at the time.

“We sincerely believe that no Spurs fan ever uses the Y-word or shouts ‘Yid Army’ in an effort to offend anyone.”

I think if you read much liberal media, you will believe these people to these things(racist, sexist,etc..) Too often are quotes taken out of context like what happened to Roger Scruton by the New Statesman. He was immediately fired for these quotes taken out of context.
This audio is very telling

That something was left out that would have made it impossible to interpret that remark in the way that he does

And to your point about living in a world where you watch what you say, you are describing North Korea. This leads to the gulags.

everlast75

Kimsang wrote: »

God no



N/A Can't disagree if I haven't read it.


I know everyone was happy with Mueller leading the investigation.
I watched the statement from Mueller.
1st part)(Interference into the 2016 presidential election"
-Russia did interfere(big surprise)
-Insufficient evidence to charge a broader conspiracy

2nd part) Results and analysis of obstruction of justice investigation involving the president.
I have no doubt Trump has attempted to obstruct justice. Thankfully the Americans have a good system of checks in balances in place.
-Sitting president can not be charged with a federal crime while sitting in office(big surprise)(unconstitutional)
-No evidence the president did not commit a crime either.


Sometimes yes, sometimes no. Give it can better explain.


Yes this is the biggest problem I have with him. It shows a stark change in our culture from people on the right to allow him to run without releasing his tax returns.


This is the kind of s*** that is wrong that I'm pointing out. Exactly this. Do you have any evidence that these 16 women were telling the truth should be the way to frame the question in a decent civil society.


Yes


I have stated many times, nearly everyone who knows anything about Trump agrees he is.


yes...


I have 2 question for you.

1. Why do my arguments continually get mis-represented in this thread, by otherwise sane and intelligent people. The same people that are oh so happy to nit-pick the smallest details from the Mueller report?







2. Do you agree we are allowing the left to censor intellectualism, and that the left is making sweeping changes in our culture in regards to group and individual identity and guilt/shame, swapping the innocent until proven guilty and how that affects our society.

So - you accept Trump obstructed justice, that there was evidence of a conspiracy but not enough to bring a criminal charge, that you only sometimes have an issue with his 10,000 plus lies, you have a huge issue with his hiding of tax records, you accept that he's a narcissist and is immoral.

All of that being true, can you honestly say he's fit for office?

If he is fit for office, what exactly must he do for you to believe he's not?

If you don't believe he's fit for office, do you believe those checks and balances you speak if should be brought to bear and an impeachment enquiry launched?

Non-Imflammatory post here.

When Trump got elected, I said one of the good things would be the general administration being way more looked at. That is certainly the case.

Over the last few days, there have been arguments made that the left is moving more left. Do ye reckon this is happening? It feels like open borders is continually gaining traction for example.

Could it be the Dems disadvantage in the future? Most of ye think I'm a Trump supporter. I'm not. I wanted Sanders in 2016 and will again if he is a contender.

Kimsang

everlast75 wrote: »

So - you accept Trump obstructed justice, that there was evidence of a conspiracy but not enough to bring a criminal charge, that you only sometimes have an issue with his 10,000 plus lies, you have a huge issue with his hiding of tax records, you accept that he's a narcissist and is immoral.

All of that being true, can you honestly say he's fit for office?


If he is fit for office, what exactly must he do for you to believe he's not?

If you don't believe he's fit for office, do you believe those checks and balances you speak if should be brought to bear and an impeachment enquiry launched?

Sometimes beggars can't be choosers. Who from the dems would do a better job, that has a chance of being elected?

I don't think people realize how left leaning Trump was considered before he ran as a republican.

Trump registered as a Republican in Manhattan in 1987 and since that time has changed his party affiliation five times.

Kimsang

Deleted User wrote: »

Non-Imflammatory post here.

When Trump got elected, I said one of the good things would be the general administration being way more looked at. That is certainly the case.

Over the last few days, there have been arguments made that the left is moving more left. Do ye reckon this is happening? It feels like open borders is continually gaining traction for example.

Could it be the Dems disadvantage in the future? Most of ye think I'm a Trump supporter. I'm not. I wanted Sanders in 2016 and will again if he is a contender.

To answer your question, I believe this SOTU from Bill Clinton in 1995 provides context.

All Americans, not only in the States most heavily affected but in every place in this country, are rightly disturbed by the large numbers of illegal aliens entering our country. The jobs they hold might otherwise be held by citizens or legal immigrants. The public service they use impose burdens on our taxpayers. That's why our administration has moved aggressively to secure our borders more by hiring a record number of new border guards, by deporting twice as many criminal aliens as ever before, by cracking down on illegal hiring, by barring welfare benefits to illegal aliens. In the budget I will present to you, we will try to do more to speed the deportation of illegal aliens who are arrested for crimes, to better identify illegal aliens in the workplace as recommended by the commission headed by former Congresswoman Barbara Jordan. We are a nation of immigrants. But we are also a nation of laws. It is wrong and ultimately self-defeating for a nation of immigrants to permit the kind of abuse of our immigration laws we have seen in recent years, and we must do more to stop it.

everlast75

Kimsang wrote: »

Sometimes beggars can't be choosers. Who from the dems would do a better job, that has a chance of being elected?

I don't think people realize how left leaning Trump was considered before he ran as a republican.

This is what i mean about your answers being all over the place. I mean that respectfully.

Can you please answer the questions I asked?

Thank you.

everlast75

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Non-Imflammatory post here.

When Trump got elected, I said one of the good things would be the general administration being way more looked at. That is certainly the case.

Over the last few days, there have been arguments made that the left is moving more left. Do ye reckon this is happening? It feels like open borders is continually gaining traction for example.

Could it be the Dems disadvantage in the future? Most of ye think I'm a Trump supporter. I'm not. I wanted Sanders in 2016 and will again if he is a contender.

The Dems are not for open borders. That's misinformation.

There was a system in place that was working according to Trump administration statistics.

Trump broke the system, manufacturing the problem and then blames it on Obama.

Its nonsense.