Donald Trump presidency discussion thread V

Jamiekelly

As for the claim that American quality of life is getting better the average life expectancy has dropped 3 years in a row

https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/us-life-expectancy-drops-third-year-row-reflecting-rising-drug-overdose-suicide-rates-180970942/

The last time that happened was during the Spanish Flu.

rossie1977

Trump administration predict that $5 trillion will be added to national debt by the end of January 2021.

That's GDP growth broken down. Trump e.g hasn't hit the highs that Obama did so far

Brian?

Jamiekelly wrote: »

As for the claim that American quality of life is getting better the average life expectancy has dropped 3 years in a row

https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/us-life-expectancy-drops-third-year-row-reflecting-rising-drug-overdose-suicide-rates-180970942/

The last time that happened was during the Spanish Flu.

But they need to deregulate the pharmaceutical industry to make drugs cheaper, dontcha know.

RIGOLO

Midlife wrote: »

Wait, wasn't it a campagin promise of Trump's to eliminate the national debt in 8 years?

It's amazing that Trump fans can perform the mental contortion required to see Obama adding to the national debt as bad but Trump adding to the national debt as good.

You deserve nothing but redicule and mockery if you take that line.

No mental controtion required.
Obama added 8 Trillion and 1.64% growth

Trump has added 2 trillion and 3 % growth

The only things being contorted are the wonderful booming economic numbers for the US economy .

Only an anti-Trumper would ever stand over spending 8 trillion and getting 1.64 % growth and fell they dealt a winning hand.

Kimsang

duploelabs wrote: »

Within what parameters? To paraphrase the simpsons quote about fox news,although he may not be one, he's certainly popular amongst those pillow case wearers

Within the parameters of how my argument was originally used would be helpful.

I was replying to this post;

everlast75 wrote: »

So, if it were an average joe being accused, i could have some sympathy. But this is Trump here, a man with armies of lawyers and the mantra that he sues anyone who crosses him. Well, have at it then Donny.

With

Kimsang wrote: »

Trump is probably the most popular person in the world, (maybe ronaldo?) The amount of allegations should be weighted as such

And then i get argued from multiple people as to Trump not being the most popular. Is it only me that sees the ridiculousness of this argument?:eek::mad::mad::mad:

MrFresh

RIGOLO wrote: »

Great thanks for backing up my earlier post ...

It wasnt a spending program per se, not unless you consider only buying one product a spend .. Obams QE was just a bond buying program , or as some called it a $4 trillion gift to the rich and Wall Street.
Every dollar obama spent was paid for by a US savers savings dollar.

As one assett fund manager said to me a while back when he was discussing what to do with the millions under his control..

The problem for the rich isnt finding money to invest.. the problem is finding invsetments to get a return on their money.

At least Trump is offering alternatives to the rich to use that money .
Alternatives like the Corporate off shore funds repatriation scheme and the inner city re-investment schemes for asset profits, among others.

Just like many of obamas messes, the middle east, Iran, NK, the economy, syria , Isis .. Trump is just cleaning up Obamas mess.

Basically OBAMA gave the rich a gift of between 4 and 8 trillion , a gift every dollar of which was paid for by the middle class savers who had to endure Fed interest rates of 0% for nearly eight years.
Thh rich have that money now, its too late to change Obamas disaster. .
Trump is just trying to figure out ways to get some of it back and get them to reinvest it productively in the US .

Can you point to any successes from the inner city investment scheme?

Midlife

Kimsang wrote: »

I did make a a few points, they were challenged and multiple tangents were made. Maybe you picked up what I said in one of these tangents.

But really the only thing I've been trying to argue is that the Left doesn't accept any responsibility for Trump being elected. (there are of course multiple reasons). I truly believe if left leaning people realized this , then we can avoid Trumps and Brexits of the future.

Another point I've been trying to make is that left leaning people tend to insinuate intentions a lot these days, I don't see it as being helpful in anyway.

E.g.
Fair enough, I apologize if it comes across this way. But this is not my intent. Taking shots at conservatives is accepted by everybody. I take shots all day long no one ever calls me on them. Only liberals don't take shots at their own sides as offensive and personal. Why is this?? (<-- my question to you!)

I think this quote sums it up the best

I think it was the failure of the US political 'left' that saw Trump elected.

However, left here is incorrrect.

I think you're referring to censorship etc which I don't think it a 'left' thing, it's a PC internet thing. Trump emboldened racists, sexists, people who were pissed off the could no longer make fun of disabled people.

I think there was a backlash against PCness. Not sure if this was what got Trump elected.

As much top do with it I'd say is Trump brought out a new core group, similar to the first time Obama got in. This core group essentially don't like multiculturalism and want an old style white-america.

I don't agree with (or am not aware of) your last point so I can't really answer a question on it.


Regarding 'insinuating intentions', you're arguing for Trump while not supporting Trump on a Trump thread but are nnot apparently that interested in discussing Trump. I think it's fair enough to wonder what you're actually trying to do.

Addtionally, I am not representitive of 'the left' or 'left leaning' whatever group you think that is. I am a single person on a single thread which made it through your personal world filter. Don't make the mistake of thinking what you see or engage with is in any way representative of a bigger picture. Same with your love of a quote - doesn't make it true at all.

Kimsang

pixelburp wrote: »

American politics was already emotional and heavily binary, it has only got worse.

Honestly, I don't think Trump knows, or cares, that his words are being lapped up by those heavily & emotionally invested in his Presidency. I daresay even the death of a journalist wouldn't be enough - I'd put my neck out right now and say there'd be narratives of them "asking for it", for reporting "unfairly".

Interestingly Jo Cox's husband came out against the flux of milkshakers in the UK, and the left were lacklustre in their response.

“I don’t think throwing stuff at politicians you disagree with is a good idea,” he said. “It normalises violence and intimidation.”

Where were the left then?

I agree with you, what Trump did promising to pay legal fees at his rally was disgusting and abhorrent, and it is the reason I wouldn't have voted for him.

But what I have learned since, is that the left in media and academia had been doing just as bad for years. The amount of collusion and cronyism is disgusting. Maybe it takes someone like Trump to disrupt this system. It has led to many innocent people losing opportunity in life.

So if you believe as I do now, that there's no way to reach the left by honest discourse, Reductio Ad Absurdum may be the only way left.

RIGOLO

rossie1977 wrote: »

Trump administration predict that $5 trillion will be added to national debt by the end of January 2021.

That's GDP growth broken down. Trump e.g hasn't hit the highs that Obama did so far

you might want to get your calculator out on that and do the sums

Obamas average for his term was 1.6% or thereabouts , Trumps avg is closer to 3% .


Did I mention Obama added $8 TRILLION dollars to the debt , imagine tha he added $8 TRILLION dollars to the US DEBT

He had the FED hold interest rates at 0% , imagine that , savers in America were getting charged money to keep their money in the bank during Obamas 8 years.

Trump is doing all this and the Fed policy is working against him.

numbers are beautiful, very hard to make them lie.
The numbers on that period have already been written and are part of history, the anti-Trumpers cant change history.

pixelburp

Trump also ran on a campaign promising a hell of a lot to the various disenfranchised, moribund communities that were slowly dying; Washington left them rot and someone like Trump - promising horsesh*t like "clean coal" and the like - was always going to be lapped up. These towns and cities need long term rethinking but this wasn't Trump's plan.

"Drain the Swamp", as I've said before, is not necessarily a bad thing - who doesn't want less corruption in their politics?? - but Trump, Roger Stone et al saw the swell of angry, unemployed workers in the Rust Belt and used them. The heyday of these communities is long gone & not coming back, but Trump played them like the thirsty in a dessert.

rossie1977

RIGOLO wrote: »

Just like many of obamas messes, the middle east, Iran, NK, the economy, syria , Isis .. Trump is just cleaning up Obamas mess.

US saw a net increase of 11.6 million jobs during Obamas presidency and Dow rose by 148%. You call that a mess. The US economy was losing 800,000 jobs a month when he took over in January 2009 and Dow had lost 50% of its peak value..

Regarding Iran I don't remember the US and Iran being on the brink of war during Obamas two terms..

Isis was all but defeated in late 2016 https://www.express.co.uk/news/world/716306/ISIS-finished-When-will-Islamic-State-be-defeated-Iraq-Syria-daesh

pixelburp

Kimsang wrote: »

Interestingly Jo Cox's husband came out against the flux of milkshakers in the UK, and the left were lacklustre in their response.

Where were the left then?

So even when it's Trump, it's "The Left". Come on. Respectfully, you're obsessed with reframing this discussion as ultimately being the fault of the Left. We're not talking about milkshakes, you literally just brought this up in a pretty blatant case of Whataboutery I'm not going to speak on milkshaking, because it has nothing to do with US politics and the rise of anti-press sentiment (though I will say that acting like milkshakes are the first food item used to attack politicians with is hilariously selective. Cream Pies, eggs, there's a long history)

"The Left" in US politics doesn't exist; it's Bernie Sanders, maybe Warren, and only recently with Ocasio-Cortez. 2016 was The Establishment vs. The Establishment, and the only fault of the Left was the presumption CLinton would walk the election so the turnout was low & you got dithering support for Jill Stein.

RIGOLO

pixelburp wrote: »

Trump also ran on a campaign promising a hell of a lot to the various disenfranchised, moribund communities that were slowly dying; Washington left them rot and someone like Trump - promising horsesh*t like "clean coal" and the like - was always going to be lapped up. These towns and cities need long term rethinking but this wasn't Trump's plan.

"Drain the Swamp", as I've said before, is not necessarily a bad thing - who doesn't want less corruption in their politics?? - but Trump, Roger Stone et al saw the swell of angry, unemployed workers in the Rust Belt and used them. The heyday of these communities is long gone & not coming back, but Trump played them like the thirsty in a dessert.

you sound like OBAMA, when he said manufacturing jobs werent coming back.

The history has been written on that too .. TRUMP WINS - OBAMA takes an L

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/04/04/business/economy-manufacturing-jobs-trump.html

For President Trump’s first two years in office, an unexpected rebound in manufacturing jobs helped bolster his claims that he was restoring the United States’ battered industrial sector. Now, that surge may be nearing its end — in part because of his own trade policies.

American manufacturers have added nearly half a million jobs since Mr. Trump took office, including for the last 19 months in a row. That streak, the longest since the mid-1990s, could hit 20 when the government releases March hiring data on Friday.

Only an Anti-Trumper would claim Trump used people by getting their jobs back, improving wages and getting more people back in jobs and more people off food stamps.
Yeah he used them to go back to work and provide for their families and themselves.

Kimsang

Midlife wrote: »

Don't make the mistake of thinking what you see or engage with is in any way representative of a bigger picture. Same with your love of a quote - doesn't make it true at all.

What I see around me is not real, and quotes are stupid. Got it.

Its not nice when someone minimizes your arguments is it?

RIGOLO

rossie1977 wrote: »

US saw a net increase of 11.6 million jobs during Obamas presidency and Dow rose by 148%. You call that a mess. The US economy was losing 800,000 jobs a month when he took over in January 2009 and Dow had lost 50% of its peak value..

Regarding Iran I don't remember the US and Iran being on the brink of war during Obamas two terms..

Isis was all but defeated in late 2016 https://www.express.co.uk/news/world/716306/ISIS-finished-When-will-Islamic-State-be-defeated-Iraq-Syria-daesh

you might want to check the chart YOU POSTED a few minutes ago. Put 2 and 2 together

Sure it was a mess , check your own chart ... Obama gave a gift of 4-8 TRILLION to the RICH and WALL STREET .
AND HE CUT SAVERS INTEREST RATES TO 0 !
so noone could make a return on their savings, so had little choice but to chase an assett bubble returns.

Food Stamp recepients went up 33% under Obama .
Think about it , he spent $8 TRILLION and nearly 50 MILLION PEOPLE WERE ON FOOD STAMPS ....
thats an unqualified mess by any standards.

The only good part was the American electorate woke up to the con job cos it was such a blatant mess and thats what helped Trump win Term 1 and will help him win term 2 also.

Kimsang

pixelburp wrote: »

So even when it's Trump, it's "The Left". Come on. Respectfully, you're obsessed with reframing this discussion as ultimately being the fault of the Left. We're not talking about milkshakes, you literally just brought this up in a pretty blatant case of Whataboutery I'm not going to speak on milkshaking, because it has nothing to do with US politics and the rise of anti-press sentiment (though I will say that acting like milkshakes are the first food item used to attack politicians with is hilariously selective. Cream Pies, eggs, there's a long history)

"The Left" in US politics doesn't exist; it's Bernie Sanders, maybe Warren, and only recently with Ocasio-Cortez. 2016 was The Establishment vs. The Establishment, and the only fault of the Left was the presumption CLinton would walk the election so the turnout was low & you got dithering support for Jill Stein.

To me it seems like you are purposefully obfuscating the argument. But to the looks of it, you think the same of me.

So lets try to be clear. You said this

It doesn't matter whether (say) CNN are reporting untruths or exaggerations, you don't declare them "Enemy of the People",

This is the part I'm taking issue with and debating. This is how I think it relevent to milkshaking in the UK. because CNN and the likes are reporting untruths and exaggerations, and I think it does matter.

pixelburp

Kimsang wrote: »

We are talking about freedom of the press and as you alluded to politics is oh so encompassing. Some people are so quick to attack trump for the slightest things he said,

But when it comes to a practice of stopping people for standing for election? What where you gone? Why you gone silent?

I'm right here Kimsang, you just threw it in my lap like the ultimate "j'accuse", or that it has anything to do with the discussion on Trump's creation of hostility towards the press (accidental or otherwise). It doesn't, it's literal whataboutery, moving the goalposts to prove a point?

Nobody should be stopped running in an election, frankly it doesn't need saying. Farage wasn't either: he had a milkshake thrown on him during canvasing & the guy was arrested. And yes, it was a bloody stupid thing to do because like Trump, Farage now operates on a Cult of Personality rather than any set of actual principles (or manifesto, given he refused to release one prior to the EU elections). It only served to martyr Farage. But Jeremy Corbyn wasn't promoting the milkshaking of Farage, or that attacking politicians with foodstuffs should be considered the New Normal in resting behaviour.

Kimsang

pixelburp wrote: »

moving the goalposts to prove a point?

Nobody should be stopped running in an election, frankly it doesn't need saying. Farage wasn't either: he had a milkshake thrown on him during canvasing & the guy was arrested. And yes, it was a bloody stupid thing to do because like Trump, Farage now operates on a Cult of Personality rather than any set of actual principles (or manifesto, given he refused to release one prior to the EU elections).

Look dude, i'm trying to keep this on topic to our original disagreement. It is you that keeps trying to obfuscate from my perspective.

The original point of contention:

Come on here, you are being facetious. Not all correspondents were banned from the WH. Ones that paint Trump in an unfairly negative light were

That is where our argument spawned.
You then argued that gerrymandering is is a removal of press freedom(seriously you did)
Then you argue that words matter and

It doesn't matter whether (say) CNN are reporting untruths or exaggerations, you don't declare them "Enemy of the People", not in a climate that's already wound up past breaking point.

This is the part I'm taking issue with. I'm saying it does matter whether CNN are reporting mis truths. Then I give examples of how milkshaking was treated by the liberal press(akin to cnn), it wasn't just a blatant case of whataboutery.

pixelburp

Kimsang wrote: »

That is where our argument spawned.
You then argued that gerrymandering is is a removal of press freedom(seriously you did)
Then you argue that words matter and

Uh I really didn't. I think you need to go back and re-read, cos that's not remotely the point I was making. wasn't the clearest point but i was not saying "gerrymandering is a removal of press freedoms". That doesn't even make sense.

Kimsang wrote: »

this is the part I'm taking issue with. I'm saying it does matter whether CNN are reporting mis truths. Then I give examples of how milkshaking was treated by the liberal press(akin to cnn), it wasn't just a blatant case of whataboutery.

No media outlet should escape scrutiny, I don't disagree, but this is not the intent of Trump's words. You're assigning some sober rationalisation to inherent inflammatory, potentially violence inducing language. The punishment does not fit the 'crime' here, then crime is basically 'negative press'. The milkshake attack was prosecuted, as it should be. How it was reported is beside the point

Gbear

Kimsang wrote: »

How do you account for the 8 years of middle-out economics executed by Clinton's aide Robert Reich? Did this have any effect on us today?

I don't know what you mean.

Kimsang wrote: »

Not only are the rich getting richer, but the poor are getting richer also. Everyone's quality of life is getting better.

The problem is they're not. Technological advances have given people things they didn't have before, but purchasing power hasn't really risen in decades. What little growth there has been has been largely isolated to the highest wage earners.

duploelabs

Kimsang wrote: »

Within the parameters of how my argument was originally used would be helpful.

I was replying to this post;

With



And then i get argued from multiple people as to Trump not being the most popular. Is it only me that sees the ridiculousness of this argument?:eek::mad::mad::mad:

Oh yes, In the world right? and then you posted wikipedia page views? (hitler being 9th or something certainly negotiates that metric)

Kimsang

duploelabs wrote: »

Oh right? and then you posted hitler being something certainly negotiates that metric)

Do you see how removing parts of my quote removes the sense that can be made of that quote?

duploelabs

Kimsang wrote: »

Do you see how removing parts of my quote removes the sense that can be made of that quote?

I didn't remove any of it, I just hit the quote button and wrote underneath. My point stands, and was also made by another poster, that wikipedia is hardly to the metric to judge someone's popularity. Again as I said before, if only they had some kind of popularity contest in the US where people would vote as to see who was more popular????? If only they did.....:pac:

Kimsang

pixelburp wrote: »

No media outlet should escape scrutiny, I don't disagree, but this is not the intent of Trump's words. You're assigning some sober rationalisation to inherent inflammatory, potentially violence inducing language. The punishment does not fit the 'crime' here, then crime is basically 'negative press'. The milkshake attack was prosecuted, as it should be. How it was reported is beside the point

Assume you believe as I do for a moment. Assume that the media and academia are escaping scrutiny(i can supply for evidence for this if requested-don't just post " no evidence please"- I've been asked to keep my posts shorted).

If this is fact the case, then I hope you can see why so many peopel cheer when Trump says the things he does about the liberal media.

pixelburp

Kimsang wrote: »

Assume you believe as I do for a moment. Assume that the media and academia are escaping scrutiny(i can supply for evidence for this if requested-don't just post " no evidence please"- I've been asked to keep my posts shorted).

If this is fact the case, then I hope you can see why so many peopel cheer when Trump says the things he does about the liberal media.

Scrutiny (or the value that you hold to be sufficient) does not equal or justify violent rhetoric though. I think this the fundamental sticking point here, IMO nothing CNN, MSNBC have done deserves to be called traitors (I need to check but I THINK Trump did call "the media" this. Even Fox have been side eyed the few times they've bad mouthed him). It can't be considered normal, because it literally flies in the face of civilised discourse, or the notions of the political leader as a calming, mature voice in the chattering crowd. The pillars of democracy say that he should be. He calls the 4th estate traitors and equivocating a distinction is immaterial.

If people take glee and cheer this language, well that speaks more to the ongoing decline in American political discourse; but the country loves an enemy to fight.

Trump doesn't care about any of this, he simply hates bad publicity and is using the language of the demagogue and autocrat like a shotgun. Were talking about a man who phoned newspapers pretending to be "John Baron" so he could wax lyrical about himself, this is the most public cricticism he has ever had to face

Igotadose

RIGOLO wrote: »

you might want to check the chart YOU POSTED a few minutes ago. Put 2 and 2 together

Sure it was a mess , check your own chart ... Obama gave a gift of 4-8 TRILLION to the RICH and WALL STREET .
AND HE CUT SAVERS INTEREST RATES TO 0 !

Obama controlled the Fed?

so noone could make a return on their savings, so had little choice but to chase an assett bubble returns.

Was this before, or after the tGOP great recession? And, would you have preferred austerity like the did in the UK (still are), or QE? But, I do agree, the bank bailout overall seems like was a bad idea and they should've been allowed to fail. Don't forget, Hank Paulson went to GWB asking for $800bn near the end of 2007 otherwise the economy would "seize up." Imagine that.

Things like the CPFB and Dodd Frank were on the right track until the tGOP got control of Congress again, and Trump's gutted it of course, as he's loving on those wall streeters

Food Stamp recepients went up 33% under Obama .
Think about it , he spent $8 TRILLION and nearly 50 MILLION PEOPLE WERE ON FOOD STAMPS ....
thats an unqualified mess by any standards.

Nah. Imagine if he hadn't. They went up during the depths of the recession and have since started coming down.

And, it's only money, deficits don't matter, if they did the tGOP would've done something about them when they had control of all 3 branches of government (2017-2019). Lest we forget, they controlled 2 of them from 2010-2016. All that horrible spending, was authorized by Congress. Who was it, again, running the Congress?

The only good part was the American electorate woke up to the con job cos it was such a blatant mess and thats what helped Trump win Term 1 and will help him win term 2 also.

No, they were cleverly lied to by a gaggle of useful idiots, most importantly Donald J. Trump.

jochenstacker

RIGOLO wrote: »

No mental controtion required.
Obama added 8 Trillion and 1.64% growth

Trump has added 2 trillion and 3 % growth

The only things being contorted are the wonderful booming economic numbers for the US economy .

Only an anti-Trumper would ever stand over spending 8 trillion and getting 1.64 % growth and fell they dealt a winning hand.

Obama had to rebuild a shattered economy, destroyed by the Bush administration.
If you ignore this point any harder, you're gonna pop a vein.

Outlaw Pete

jochenstacker wrote: »

Obama had to rebuild a shattered economy, destroyed by the Bush administration.

He had eight years and said (while campaigning for Hillary) that Trump would need a 'magic wand' to raise the GDP to below what he has and to raise unemployment to below what he has.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DuhXkCF-L2E

Guess Trump found that magic wand.

StringerBell

RIGOLO wrote: »

which is why I didnt say they were . Check my post.

Seems odd an anti-Trumper is more concernend about whether or not I used the term 'illegal alien' when talking about the 4 animals who took a 13 year old girl, raped and abused her over 24 hours and then shot her in the back of the head as she lay there naked on the concrete parking lot ground ...

Seems odd an anti-Trumper is more concerned with the semantics of my post, than expressing support for a President who has declared a war on that gang MS-13.

Demonisation of one nationality/race/religion/whatever over others is both boring and foolish.

FatherTed

RIGOLO wrote: »

No mental controtion required.
Obama added 8 Trillion and 1.64% growth

Trump has added 2 trillion and 3 % growth

The only things being contorted are the wonderful booming economic numbers for the US economy .

Only an anti-Trumper would ever stand over spending 8 trillion and getting 1.64 % growth and fell they dealt a winning hand.

You neglect to consider that Obama was given by the GOP a recession, a bank bailout and the Iraq war to pay for, each of which he eliminated during his time. The GDP was -2.5% when he took over. He took unemployment from 10% to 4.7%. Trump has taken unemployment from 4.7 to 3.6 which is a good continuation so far but he was handed a good economy and low unemployment.

I know you have a hatred for anything to do with Obama(I wonder why?) but do you actually think Obama's and Trump's starting points were the same?