Donald Trump presidency discussion thread V

MadYaker

Eric Cartman wrote: »

Where ?

Why is it the same people that clap for a $15 an hour 'living wage' are also the ones that want to allow cheap illegal labour into the country

Trump isn’t serious about solving illegal immigration. If he was he’d be getting the justice dept to implement a zero tolerance policy on illegals working in America. The laws are there but they aren’t being enforced and that isn’t by accident. These people form a huge chunk of the agriculture workforce in southern states and powerful republican businessmen like Trump don’t want that to change.

If they couldn’t get jobs they wouldn’t come. The wall might slow the flow for a year or two until people find ways over, under, around etc but people will always find a way. The wall is essentially a vanity project for him imo.

volchitsa

Eric Cartman wrote: »

Ok firstly thats a story about 1998 , if were going to take everyones views from 1998 as their record for actions today then youd have a lot more to give out about than trump.

Poor answer. Most people don't go on to become president of the country based largely on their opposition to illegal immigration.

Also, he's particularly secretive about his financial affairs compared to most politicians, so that information only becomes available after he has lost long court battles.

It's not that he briefly acted unwisely, and that some really old stuff is being cast to him unfairly, it's that there is no recent information because he habitually fights any attempt to shed light on his financial affairs with, let's say, unusual ferocity for someone who should (normally) be considered to be setting an example of moral behaviour.

And the same people who often champion the living wage / $15 minimum wage are those who also campaign against border restrictions or campaign for allowing illegal immigrants to stay, which ofcourse is whats hurting wages in the service sector in the US. Anyone for a 'living wage' should be staunchly anti illegal immigrant .

As a poster correctly stated above, it is often liberatrian types who are for no mimimum wage and keeping illegal immigrants too.

As you said he requested visas. Nobody has complained about legal migrants who went through the process at all.

Not true, though, because on the stump, Trump himself talked about American jobs, America first and all that. So most politicians have no problem with giving immigrants more visas - except Trump, who railed against them. Unless you think he meant creating jobs in America and bringing immigrants in to do them??

dr.fuzzenstein

Anyways, I'm calling.
Trump will cave.

everlast75

From

Mexico will pay for it

To

Mexico will pay for it indirectly

To

Gofundme a wall

To

Why won't the Dems pay for it? (Meaning the american tax payer)



And from

"I'm proud to own the shutdown. I won't blame the Dems"

To

"It's the Dems fault there is a shutdown"


The guy is an utter, utter joke.

pixelburp

Reports that the administration are also freezing (non military) federal salaries for 2019. Now, there have been freezes during the last administration (only restored again in 2013) lest the lurking cry bias or hysteria, but just from a PR point of view it seems pretty sloppy to announce pay freezes during a federal shutdown - over a boondoggle at that. Not exactly a way to get those affected - immediately or tangentially - onside.


Are government shutdowns even common elsewhere? Just seems like another quintessentially American eccentricity and hyperbolic approach to government that doesn't exist in other (dys)functioning democracies.

mcmoustache

Eric Cartman wrote: »

Ok firstly thats a story about 1998 , if were going to take everyones views from 1998 as their record for actions today then youd have a lot more to give out about than trump.

In a story that came out today, it seems like the Trump golf course was hiring illegals. But that's not all. The golf course was giving them fake documentation. If i remember correctly, it was reported to Mueller and he sent the case to the NewJersey AG.


I should also point out that he runs the golf courses - it's not one of those deals where he charges people for putting the trump name on a building or a slab of beef.


Here's a link that should put to bed the idea that Trump is so innocent that he wouldn't hire illegals or allow fraud to take place in order to do so.


https://lawandcrime.com/high-profile/mueller-has-referred-another-trump-related-criminal-case-to-the-fbi/

Nody

mcmoustache wrote: »

In a story that came out today, it seems like the Trump golf course was hiring illegals. But that's not all. The golf course was giving them fake documentation. If i remember correctly, it was reported to Mueller and he sent the case to the NewJersey AG.

It will be called a "smart business move to lower cost" by his base and will be taken as further proof of how great Trump is (exactly as it was done when his base was asked how increasing the number of visas for hospitality members at his resorts in Florida was required with over 5000 Americans available at one job agency alone to start directly in the state). Trump will of course sell out some lower rank people for it as usual and pay the usual fines (to bad for him his trust is not around anymore to take the cost).

dr.fuzzenstein

Meanwhile in Trumpistan

https://www.timeslive.co.za/news/world/2018-12-30-trump-blames-democrats-for-migrant-childrens-death-amid-budget-impasse/

US President Donald Trump on Saturday blamed opposition Democrats for the death of two immigrant children in US custody, comments set to heighten tensions as the second week of a government shutdown began over his demands for a wall on the US-Mexico border.

I do hope he ends up in jail.

salmocab

Bit tangential but could federal workers find other jobs during these shut downs and not go back to their jobs after the shutdown? As in their contracts are broken and they don’t need to give notice periods etc. I amn’t trying to make any point here regards Trump just wondering the mechanics of it.

volchitsa

salmocab wrote: »

Bit tangential but could federal workers find other jobs during these shut downs and not go back to their jobs after the shutdown? As in their contracts are broken and they don’t need to give notice periods etc. I amn’t trying to make any point here regards Trump just wondering the mechanics of it.

Yes I've been wondering myself how workers caught up in this system manage, closing down, or at least the threat of one, is something of a regular occurrence after all, even if this one seems set to be one of the worst.

I saw something about employees being issued with letters for banks and the like, but it seems crazy that there isn't a legal obligation to pay employees, or at least to give them sort of financial aid to bridge the gap. To my mind, a job with that level of uncertainty would need to have really exceptional conditions the rest of the time in order to make up. I'm really not sure that's the case for many of those jobs.

Couldn't there be some sort of emergency fund that would cover employees' salaries, or a significant proportion of their pay at least? Basically workers are being temporarily laid off - they should be entitled to some sort of unemployment benefit, shouldn't they?

aloyisious

Ref illegal immigration, it doesn't matter to some bosses that illegal immigrants work for them when the $ is taken into account. Those workers don't have the vote as a weapon to make the elected pay them any [other than crocodile] attention. It's those bosses who've been selling off the family silverware [US jobs for US citizens] for decades now with willing [blind-eye and other] assistance from the Pols.

The people who are supposed to look after the US citizens natural rights don't give a damn [Dems as they will be slammed for ignoring the rights of the poor illegals and those heading to the US for a bite of the big cherry - GOP's as they are tied to Don who has a finger in both national politics and US industry pies] as to tackle the problem with illegals working internal to the US would cost them votes and expose their two-faced attitude to ensuring US citizens keep their US jobs.

It seems even the average US citizen doesn't give a damn now about the immigrants working illegally in the US as Don has successfully got their attention by splitting the US national family apart, all for his personal profit while he lays the blame for his ills and faulty thinking at the door of his hired staff, the judges, the senate and house [both parties]. The only people he doesn't seem to have held to account is the US voter and worker. I haven't heard him bashing the US unions. On a bye the bye, are the unions neutered?

alchemist33

I've thought for a while that the only thing that will bring Don is for the base to desert him. If they somehow* make the link between these thousands of "rapists" crossing the border and Trumo and his gang encouraging them to come by hiring them, could this be it?


* cognitive dissonance probably says no. The base will ignore this while still bleating about the wall

MadYaker

alchemist33 wrote: »

I've thought for a while that the only thing that will bring Don is for the base to desert him. If they somehow* make the link between these thousands of "rapists" crossing the border and Trumo and his gang encouraging them to come by hiring them, could this be it?


* cognitive dissonance probably says no. The base will ignore this while still bleating about the wall

I agree with you but I don't think this will be it. I think if he had caved on the wall to avert the shutdown that might have done it. But it's hardly going to be just one thing he does, more likely a series of bad decisions that piss off the base.

everlast75

His approval is at 38%.

Nixon's was at 34% when he was impeached

Itssoeasy

everlast75 wrote: »

His approval is at 38%.

Nixon's was at 34% when he was impeached

Yeah but Nixon had democratic controlled congress I think. Also Nixon wasn't actually technically impeached.

Christy42

salmocab wrote: »

Bit tangential but could federal workers find other jobs during these shut downs and not go back to their jobs after the shutdown? As in their contracts are broken and they don’t need to give notice periods etc. I amn’t trying to make any point here regards Trump just wondering the mechanics of it.

The US has little sympathy for lower rung workers. Sure they could get a new job but the mechanics would be difficult and who knows when they are expected to turn up to work again.

However, as is frequently the case in the US, I suspect the answer to any hardship is that it is their fault for being poor.

amandstu

everlast75 wrote: »

His approval is at 38%.

Nixon's was at 34% when he was impeached

Are you anticipating an attempt at impeachment?

(maybe you have already told us this but I think the consensus is that it is just not possible with his present "support" in the Senate)

I doubt Mueller is (or can be ) holding back any "aha" revelation for the right impeachable moment.

everlast75

amandstu wrote: »

Are you anticipating an attempt at impeachment?

(maybe you have already told us this but I think the consensus is that it is just not possible with his present "support" in the Senate)

I doubt Mueller is (or can be ) holding back any "aha" revelation for the right impeachable moment.

They moved to impeach Clinton without the majority IIRC

amandstu

everlast75 wrote: »

They moved to impeach Clinton without the majority IIRC

Hmm ,was that just to put it up to the Dems?

There is a difference between impeaching ,successfully impeaching and also forcing from office.

Are you hopeful* in the present situation?

* in this limited context

PropJoe10

amandstu wrote: »

Are you anticipating an attempt at impeachment?

(maybe you have already told us this but I think the consensus is that it is just not possible with his present "support" in the Senate)

I doubt Mueller is (or can be ) holding back any "aha" revelation for the right impeachable moment.

I've said this before, but I hope they don't move to impeach him unless they have absolutely no choice. Considering how divided the country is, Trump would only be seen as a martyr forced out by a Democratic conspiracy, and he'd have no qualms about stirring up his base on Twitter either.


I hope they spend the next two years completely shutting down his agenda, and then beat him at the polls at 2020. That's the best way to consign this presidency to history, it seems to me.

looksee

Christy42 wrote: »

The US has little sympathy for lower rung workers. Sure they could get a new job but the mechanics would be difficult and who knows when they are expected to turn up to work again.

However, as is frequently the case in the US, I suspect the answer to any hardship is that it is their fault for being poor.

I was having a conversation with a Texan about the American 'system' and trying to argue that basic health care was a right in a 'first world' country. This argument was not making any impression at all, her attitude was that the system of charitable hospital care worked and that it benefited the donors by allowing them to fulfill Christian obligations of charity. The rights of the receivers of this charity were irrelevant and in fact giving them rights was socialism therefore automatically Not Good.

amandstu

looksee wrote: »

I was having a conversation with a Texan about the American 'system' and trying to argue that basic health care was a right in a 'first world' country. This argument was not making any impression at all, her attitude was that the system of charitable hospital care worked and that it benefited the donors by allowing them to fulfill Christian obligations of charity. The rights of the receivers of this charity were irrelevant and in fact giving them rights was socialism therefore automatically Not Good.

Meandering off topic now,what dictates (in their doctrine) when charity has gone far enough?

Is that the concept of moral hazard?

Eric Cartman

looksee wrote: »

I was having a conversation with a Texan about the American 'system' and trying to argue that basic health care was a right in a 'first world' country. This argument was not making any impression at all, her attitude was that the system of charitable hospital care worked and that it benefited the donors by allowing them to fulfill Christian obligations of charity. The rights of the receivers of this charity were irrelevant and in fact giving them rights was socialism therefore automatically Not Good.

Well they don't have to deal with A&E trolley queues, bed blocking and homeless addicts looking for pain meds. Every time theres a really sick child with a rare condition we end up sending them to the US. A lot of the worlds best medical professionals are in the US. You can get medical insurance that covers 10x doctor visits a year and 31 days hospital stay and $2500 injury benefit for $126 a month, which isn't bad. Not trying to get into a massive debate about the healthcare system but its better than our own in a lot of ways and worse in other ways.

The US is an amazing country to live in if you make over $50,000 a year , below that and it can get very dicey at times , but that said most of europe isnt somewhere you'd want to be tax resident if you earn over $300,000 a year as you'll just be shafted every way and theres restrictions on a lot of things money can buy stateside.

rossie1977

Impeachment is a waste of time in this upcoming cycle as they would never get votes in Senate.

Best thing house can do is investigate Trump and his families many shady dealings. Trump is up to his eyes in it and a Rod Rosenstein led investigation is never going to implicate Trump himself.

amandstu

rossie1977 wrote: »

Impeachment is a waste of time in this upcoming cycle as they would never get votes in Senate.

Best thing house can do is investigate Trump and his families many shady dealings. Trump is up to his eyes in it and a Rod Rosenstein led investigation is never going to implicate Trump himself.

Certainly best to discover as much as possible where he has operated in illegal ways (and where it has relevance to the presidency)

It must be obvious that his Republican allies and supporters would (for the most part) bury, obfuscate or deny all that.

The electorate also need to be confronted with who it was they let in the front door(if there is any chance they will learn from it)

A contentious impeachment would cloud all that ,although it has to be said that every further day with such a president they are walking (us) further into disaster.

It seems like it is the partisan nature itself of American politics is to blame**; maybe the Dems should start the ball rolling on some form of electoral reform pretty sharpish.


**unless it is equallythe transition from traditional media to the new forms of social media communication that is to blame.

jochenstacker

Eric Cartman wrote: »

The US is an amazing country to live in if you make over $50,000 a year , below that and it can get very dicey at times , but that said most of europe isnt somewhere you'd want to be tax resident if you earn over $300,000 a year as you'll just be shafted every way and theres restrictions on a lot of things money can buy stateside.

That just means that the vast majority have to live under dicey conditions

https://www.abcdiamond.com/tag/median-wage-in-united-states/

But it's ok, they're only poor people, so that doesn't matter?
As for the people earning more than €300k, the poor bastards, I'll make sure to light a candle in church for them. Where is Mother Theresa when you need her?

Water John

Ah but if you really really really work hard you too can earn €300K.
The American dream.

Eric Cartman

Water John wrote: »

Ah but if you really really really work hard you too can earn €300K.
The American dream.

Thats how it works, work hard, upskill, educate yourself, network in the right circles, ask questions from people who have succeeded, try as hard as you can and even if you ended up making 100k a year thats still a pretty damn good result for falling short of a dream.

FrostyJack

PropJoe10 wrote: »

I've said this before, but I hope they don't move to impeach him unless they have absolutely no choice. Considering how divided the country is, Trump would only be seen as a martyr forced out by a Democratic conspiracy, and he'd have no qualms about stirring up his base on Twitter either.


I hope they spend the next two years completely shutting down his agenda, and then beat him at the polls at 2020. That's the best way to consign this presidency to history, it seems to me.

I would almost agree with you if it was Pence or say Romney in office, but with Trump in 2 years he can do a lot more damage. Even if he loses fair and square he could just say he was cheated and the elections were rigged, that could set off his easily swayed base. Even if it passes off perfectly and he graciously concedes (can you even dream of that happening), the country could be in the tank and the Democrat who has to pick up the pieces like Obama did, will be slammed no matter what they do and they will be turfed out again in 4/8 years by another Trump. So like a plaster I think it is better just to rip it off and get him out asap and put up with President Pence for 2 failing years and then hope there is a country left to save.

FrostyJack

Eric Cartman wrote: »

Thats how it works, work hard, upskill, educate yourself, network in the right circles, ask questions from people who have succeeded, try as hard as you can and even if you ended up making 100k a year thats still a pretty damn good result for falling short of a dream.

Why doesn't everyone do that? Why are there poor in this country if it is that simple? Surely it is easier to earn 100k than work 3 or 4 jobs for 20k? Maybe you should look further into it.