Donald Trump presidency discussion thread V

batgoat

Eric Cartman wrote: »

Thats how it works, work hard, upskill, educate yourself, network in the right circles, ask questions from people who have succeeded, try as hard as you can and even if you ended up making 100k a year thats still a pretty damn good result for falling short of a dream.

I'll use myself as an example, you ignored it last time I did but I'll go for it. I have crohns disease, at times this has resulted in me ending up in hospital a few times. I have to spend a day in hospital every 2 months, the treatment would cost 4/5 thousand each time I get it. I'm in a lucky position where I have a good health insurance plan and can afford it. However others cannot. But thankfully in Ireland, that treatment is free in the public health service.

In America, it would be unmanageable and it is for many people. This illness and others end up with people in a lifetime of debt from a young age. Health shouldn't be something that unattainable for some people because they can't afford it. This is why think your view on this and other things shows a completely inhumane viewpoint of the world.

PopePalpatine

That talk is for quitters! What's wrong with you, don't your parents have golf/polo buddies for networking?

Eric Cartman

FrostyJack wrote: »

Why doesn't everyone do that? Why are there poor in this country if it is that simple? Surely it is easier to earn 100k than work 3 or 4 jobs for 20k? Maybe you should look further into it.

Lack of ambition, in the past before contraception was widely available there was the issue of supporting kids that you couldnt really plan for, access to education in the past was an issue, its not like you can wake up one morning and go woohay 100k , it takes a damn lot of hard work and some people have other priorities or just arent motivated enough or are trapped with dependents which do not enable this.

banie01

batgoat wrote: »

I'll use myself as an example, you ignored it last time I did but I'll go for it. I have crohns disease, at times this has resulted in me ending up in hospital a few times. I have to spend a day in hospital every 2 months, the treatment would cost 4/5 thousand each time I get it. I'm in a lucky position where I have a good health insurance plan and can afford it. However others cannot. But thankfully in Ireland, that treatment is free in the public health service.

In America, it would be unmanageable and it is for many people. This illness and others end up with people in a lifetime of debt from a young age. Health shouldn't be something that unattainable for some people because they can't afford it. This is why think your view on this and other things shows a completely inhumane viewpoint of the world.

+1 on this.
The costs associated with just managing a chronic illness, let alone any hospitalisation costs in the US are eye watering.
Whereas here in Ireland we have the safety net of the Drug Payment Scheme, the maximum yearly In Patient charge, the long term illness scheme all available before such supports as the medical card are even warranted.

I have private health insurance and it's great, just had surgery on my hand with a doc and hospital of my choosing.
But I also have a long term chronic illness that is managed via a specialist team on the public system.
The charges that would accrue to me in the US system for a minimum 2 specialist visits a year along with drug costs of @€;2500 per month if not subsidised would bankrupt me relatively quickly, that's before any "normal" medical expenditure is considered.

I'm a firm believer in that you can judge a society by how it cares for it weakest and most vulnerable members.
By that measure, America is incredibly broken.

It's a strange irony that a country who's motto is "E pluribis unum" views any form of social medicine or welfare as anathema.

rossie1977

A third level education is completely unthinkable for millions of Americans gven the costs involved

26000 Elephants

looksee wrote: »

I was having a conversation with a Texan about the American 'system' and trying to argue that basic health care was a right in a 'first world' country. This argument was not making any impression at all, her attitude was that the system of charitable hospital care worked and that it benefited the donors by allowing them to fulfill Christian obligations of charity. The rights of the receivers of this charity were irrelevant and in fact giving them rights was socialism therefore automatically Not Good.

Straight out of Robert Lefavre's "Freedom School" playbook, the backbone of ultra-conservatism.

Water John

A good bit further to the right but essentially European Christian Democrat of the 19thC, frozen and not having evolved.

spacecoyote

batgoat wrote: »

I'll use myself as an example, you ignored it last time I did but I'll go for it. I have crohns disease, at times this has resulted in me ending up in hospital a few times. I have to spend a day in hospital every 2 months, the treatment would cost 4/5 thousand each time I get it. I'm in a lucky position where I have a good health insurance plan and can afford it. However others cannot. But thankfully in Ireland, that treatment is free in the public health service.

In America, it would be unmanageable and it is for many people. This illness and others end up with people in a lifetime of debt from a young age. Health shouldn't be something that unattainable for some people because they can't afford it. This is why think your view on this and other things shows a completely inhumane viewpoint of the world.

I'd be in a similar boat. I'm a type 1 diabetic (that's the genetic one as opposed to lifestyle driven one for simplicities sake). From what I can see, the average American with diabetes is spending 16-20k per year on their treatment. In Ireland insulin is free. Put simply, I can't live without it. So in the US I'd need to be earning at least 20k, after tax, more than I am today just to live.

That's not a system I'd want to be tied in to. But maybe you're right Eric, I've flawed genetics so maybe I should just be taken out of the gene pool

Eric Cartman

spacecoyote wrote: »

I'd be in a similar boat. I'm a type 1 diabetic (that's the genetic one as opposed to lifestyle driven one for simplicities sake). From what I can see, the average American with diabetes is spending 16-20k per year on their treatment. In Ireland insulin is free. Put simply, I can't live without it. So in the US I'd need to be earning at least 20k, after tax, more than I am today just to live.

That's not a system I'd want to be tied in to. But maybe you're right Eric, I've flawed genetics so maybe I should just be taken out of the gene pool

So as above with the other poster, "i like the irish system better because it benefits me and saves me money" , Well I like the US system better because less taxation would benefit me and save me money.

Nothing about taking people out of the gene pool etc..

My original point was that the US medical care system has a lot of advantages and believe me if you had some incredibly rare condition and went over for treatment then you'd see just how invaluable to humanity their health system is.

I wonder proportionally , how many people received inadequate care or died because of a lack of insurance coverage in the US vs how many people die every year here or in the UK from sitting on trollies, overworked staff or the government not funding some procedures / training / medicines.

Water John

Nobody dies from waiting on a trolley. I have ill family in US and its the pits, above all woefully inefficient.

Anthracite

Eric Cartman wrote: »

So as above with the other poster, "i like the irish system better because it benefits me and saves me money" , Well I like the US system better because less taxation would benefit me and save me money.

Nothing about taking people out of the gene pool etc..

My original point was that the US medical care system has a lot of advantages and believe me if you had some incredibly rare condition and went over for treatment then you'd see just how invaluable to humanity their health system is.

I wonder proportionally , how many people received inadequate care or died because of a lack of insurance coverage in the US vs how many people die every year here or in the UK from sitting on trollies, overworked staff or the government not funding some procedures / training / medicines.

I think you'll find that a lot more people in the US die needlessly. Are you familiar with the term, 'preventative medicine'?

As an aside, it strikes me as basic humanity to protect people who are ill due to no fault of their own. You must be a huge fan of that icon of adolescent conservatives, Ayn Rand.

listermint

Eric Cartman wrote: »

So as above with the other poster, "i like the irish system better because it benefits me and saves me money" , Well I like the US system better because less taxation would benefit me and save me money.

Nothing about taking people out of the gene pool etc..

My original point was that the US medical care system has a lot of advantages and believe me if you had some incredibly rare condition and went over for treatment then you'd see just how invaluable to humanity their health system is.

I wonder proportionally , how many people received inadequate care or died because of a lack of insurance coverage in the US vs how many people die every year here or in the UK from sitting on trollies, overworked staff or the government not funding some procedures / training / medicines.

Youre actually selling a stylised version of the US and it's healthcare system.

So much so that it sounds like you've f all experience of it and the Irish system too.

Its like something I'd read off Reddit its stuffed with that much byline nonsense

L1011

Eric Cartman wrote: »

A lot of the worlds best medical professionals are in the US.

Because its a big country. Not because of its insanely awful medical system.

Eric Cartman wrote: »

You can get medical insurance that covers 10x doctor visits a year and 31 days hospital stay and $2500 injury benefit for $126 a month, which isn't bad.

If you're healthy already. Try retaining that if you claim a lot.

Eric Cartman wrote: »

The US is an amazing country to live in if you make over $50,000 a year , below that and it can get very dicey at times

I think your idea of the figures for the US is about a decade out of date, possibly more.

jochenstacker

Eric Cartman wrote: »

Lack of ambition, in the past before contraception was widely available there was the issue of supporting kids that you couldnt really plan for, access to education in the past was an issue, its not like you can wake up one morning and go woohay 100k , it takes a damn lot of hard work and some people have other priorities or just arent motivated enough or are trapped with dependents which do not enable this.

This is absolute textbook of the sort of sneering, contemptuous attitude the top 5% in the US display towards the less well off.

relax carry on

Eric Cartman wrote: »

Lack of ambition, in the past before contraception was widely available there was the issue of supporting kids that you couldnt really plan for, access to education in the past was an issue, its not like you can wake up one morning and go woohay 100k , it takes a damn lot of hard work and some people have other priorities or just arent motivated enough or are trapped with dependents which do not enable this.

Anything to be said for another workhouse?

"Many can't go there; and many would rather die."
"If they would rather die," said Scrooge, "they had better do it, and decrease the surplus population."

banie01

jochenstacker wrote: »

This is absolute textbook of the sort of sneering, contemptuous attitude the top 5% in the US display towards the less well off.

Agreed, the poster has a tenuous grasp of the economic and educational realities behind a 100k income.

I am more than a little bemused at the claim that "hard work" will get the 100k per annum needed to enjoy a reasonably secure and stable lifestyle stateside.
As if all it takes to earn a high salary is hard work?
As if someone who only has a high school diploma can work hard enough to earn the 100k?
College in the US is expensive and entry to anything but community college is restrictive, competitive and very expensive!
It is beyond the scope of student loans and scholarships to make it affordable.

The federal minimum wage in the us is currently @$7.25 per hour and has not increased in years.
Individual states have legislated to have increased rates but even the highest current minimum in Seattle of $15.45 means someone in would have to work @125hrs a week to meet the 100k gross.
On the mandated federal minimum, it becomes a ridiculous 250hrs per week needed, only is there is only 144hrs in a week!

Eric Cartman

banie01 wrote: »

Agreed, the poster has a tenuous grasp of the economic and educational realities behind a 100k income.

I am more than a little bemused at the claim that "hard work" will get the 100k per annum needed to enjoy a reasonably secure and stable lifestyle stateside.
As if all it takes to earn a high salary is hard work?
As if someone who only has a high school diploma can work hard enough to earn the 100k?
College in the US is expensive and entry to anything but community college is restrictive, competitive and very expensive!
It is beyond the scope of student loans and scholarships to make it affordable.

The federal minimum wage in the us is currently @$7.25 per hour and has not increased in years.
Individual states have legislated to have increased rates but even the highest current minimum in Seattle of $15.45 means someone in would have to work @125hrs a week to meet the 100k gross.
On the mandated federal minimum, it becomes a ridiculous 250hrs per week needed, only is there is only 144hrs in a week!

I know people who work in various fields from software development to real estate to marketing who are making upwards of 100k without college degrees stateside. The minimum wage has no baring on somebodys ability to work at making 100k a year.

This thread just shifts a bit more left every day. I just expect to pay my own way in life and keep the money I worked hard to earn, clearly thats too much for many posters here.

batgoat

Eric Cartman wrote: »

So as above with the other poster, "i like the irish system better because it benefits me and saves me money" , Well I like the US system better because less taxation would benefit me and save me money.

Nothing about taking people out of the gene pool etc..

My original point was that the US medical care system has a lot of advantages and believe me if you had some incredibly rare condition and went over for treatment then you'd see just how invaluable to humanity their health system is.

I wonder proportionally , how many people received inadequate care or died because of a lack of insurance coverage in the US vs how many people die every year here or in the UK from sitting on trollies, overworked staff or the government not funding some procedures / training / medicines.

Oh Cartman, your preferred system is absolute greed. I pay plenty of tax, am in a well paying job and I have no issue with the fact that part of everyone's taxes subsidise medication costs and the likes. I held this stance prior to ever getting ill. Your preferred system abandons those who can't afford incredibly expensive treatments.

So I can conclude that your stance is if you suffer from a serious chronic illness, if you can't afford treatment then you should simply suffer to the point where you'll have no quality of life? How can you not see the barbarism in that?

Slightly related was I'm reminded of how US hospitals inflate the price of really basic items such as plastic bags, tylenol etc.

https://www.rd.com/health/wellness/wildly-overinflated-hospital-costs/

banie01

Eric Cartman wrote: »

I know people who work in various fields from software development to real estate to marketing who are making upwards of 100k without college degrees stateside. The minimum wage has no baring on somebodys ability to work at making 100k a year.

This thread just shifts a bit more left every day. I just expect to pay my own way in life and keep the money I worked hard to earn, clearly thats too much for many posters here.

For 2017 the median personal income in the US is $31786....
That's 68k less than the safety threshold...
The median household income for the same period was $61372.
Those are figures from the US census bureau.

Knowing a few people who are exceptions to the rule and earning 100k plus without further education is just that an exception, 1 that in actuality proves the rule and is notable for its uniqueness.
It is not the basis for an argument on the economic benefit of working hard
With all those exceptional people working as software Devs and real estate moguls, why is there even a need for a minimum wage?
Sure all they need do is work hard, spoof a bit and it all be ok?
Who needs McDonalds.

As for your assertion that minimum wage has no bearing on someone's ability to make a 100k...
Are you for real? Do you have a notion at all of market reality and labour pricing?

jochenstacker

Eric Cartman wrote: »

I know people who work in various fields from software development to real estate to marketing who are making upwards of 100k without college degrees stateside. The minimum wage has no baring on somebodys ability to work at making 100k a year.

This thread just shifts a bit more left every day. I just expect to pay my own way in life and keep the money I worked hard to earn, clearly thats too much for many posters here.

If you had paid attention it might have not escaped your very narrow, blinkered view that not everyone can earn €100k.
Unless you start paying a minimum wage of €100k per annum.
I'm sure the workers picking fruit, working in slaughterhouses or stacking shelves will be absolutely delighted.
Of course it will also have completely escaped you that if they did earn €100k, this will be the price of a loaf of bread.
Or every single worker will work as a software developer.
You probably honestly believe that this is possible.
And you will probably be surprised that there will be no meat or agricultural produce available, but that's ok, since the supermarket closed because no one works there anymore.
And of course there will be no nurses and porters in your oh so fantastic hospitals, because why work for beans when you can make €100k elsewhere?
You are so entirely blind to how the world works at a fundamental level, it is astounding.
Did mom and pop fund your college and since then you had a cushy number farting into a chair all day?
You're just missing "let them eat cake".

Eric Cartman

jochenstacker wrote: »

If you had paid attention it might have not escaped your very narrow, blinkered view that not everyone can earn €100k.
Unless you start paying a minimum wage of €100k per annum.
I'm sure the workers picking fruit, working in slaughterhouses or stacking shelves will be absolutely delighted.
Of course it will also have completely escaped you that if they did earn €100k, this will be the price of a loaf of bread.
Or every single worker will work as a software developer.
You probably honestly believe that this is possible.
And you will probably be surprised that there will be no meat or agricultural produce available, but that's ok, since the supermarket closed because no one works there anymore.
You are so entirely blind to how the world works at a fundamental level, it is astounding.
Did mom and pop fund your college and since then you had a cushy number farting into a chair all day?
You're just missing "let them eat cake".

Ive never said everyone should earn 100k, the world only keeps working because they don't . But there are however no systemic barriers to anyone earning 100k a year , if you are ambitious enough, dedicate enough time to it and make the right business decisions it is achievable. Ofcourse everyones income going up would cause inflation, nobody is saying it won't , Im well aware of how this works.

eagle eye

I lived in the US in the nineties and while there had an accident that left me with a severed vein and abrased artery.
When I arrived at the hospital covered in blood from neck to toe the first question I was asked was if I had medical insurance.
Luckily for me I did.

jochenstacker

Eric Cartman wrote: »

Ive never said everyone should earn 100k, the world only keeps working because they don't . But there are however no systemic barriers to anyone earning 100k a year , if you are ambitious enough, dedicate enough time to it and make the right business decisions it is achievable. Ofcourse everyones income going up would cause inflation, nobody is saying it won't , Im well aware of how this works.

Just fcuk everyone who doesn't, right?

Leroy42

People like Eric love telling all and sundry to simply pull up their socks, work hard etc.

But should that include the young, and how young? The old, what age counts as old? What about disabled? Those with learning difficulties? Those with cancer that can't work due to therary? What if you have an accident and can't work? Should those fedearl employees suffering from Trumps shutdown simply have planned better?

What always gets me is the amazing amount of money spent on the military over in the US, with Trump evening running on increasing hand outs to vets. Surely people like Eric hate that sort of talk. Simply reskill, network and get on with things.

And that is before we get to the whole Farmers bail out. 12bn in free money just because the farmers didn't diversify?

banie01

Leroy42 wrote: »

And that is before we get to the whole Farmers bail out. 12bn in free money just because the farmers didn't diversify?

Farmers!?
You'd swear it was Trump's fault that those pesky Chinese have massively cut the Soya bean orders from the biggest producer in the world
Who funnily enough got into Soya as a diversification strategy.

Eric Cartman

jochenstacker wrote: »

Just fcuk everyone who doesn't, right?

thats not what I said, the US has a lot of medical care programs for lower earners, there are insurance plans available, many companies pay out. Many people get by in the US on well under 100k ,

What did the world do before socialist medicine took hold ?

aloyisious

Senator Graham's prior-announced attempt at getting Don to change his mind on a total and rapid withdrawal of US forces from Syria seems to have failed. I cant help but feel that it was all a "blessed are the peacemakers for they are good" con-job cooked up by the publicity people behind Don & the GOP, mere distraction. Another way of viewing the Senator's announcement [pre-visit] and the second one [post-visit] is that Don sent him away with a flea in his ear and he's had to lie about his "success" with Don. Which it was I ain't quite certain. If there's some-one with an ear to the W/H ground, perhaps they can tell us what's going on with the Senator & the GOP over Don's pull-out plans after the departure of his last Defence Secretary.

amandstu

eagle eye wrote: »

I lived in the US in the nineties and while there had an accident that left me with a severed vein and abrased artery.
When I arrived at the hospital covered in blood from neck to toe the first question I was asked was if I had medical insurance.
Luckily for me I did.

In the 70s in N California I sliced my hand on a Hobart industrial food processing machine and had no insurance. My employers saw right by me but did let me go soon after (naively,perhaps I never saw any connection)

About 15 stitches,I think.

In France (less dramatically and before the EU) it was the same.

People can be better than the system

But in Boston I was run out of my job under threat of revealing my status

prawnsambo

Eric Cartman wrote: »

What did the world do before socialist medicine took hold ?

It bought snake oil.

L1011

Eric Cartman wrote: »

What did the world do before socialist medicine took hold ?

Died, mostly.

Life expectancy figures for the non-rich are quite starkly different since public healthcare became common in countries.