Donald Trump presidency discussion thread V

Midlife

AbusesToilets wrote: »

Your painting of the US as being responsible for Islamic extremism, ignores centuries of violence on the part of Islamic nations, under the guise of said religion. In a modern context, it both assumes more influence on the part of the US and denies the culpability of those nations and people for their choices and actions.

Nope, partly responsible.

Do you think that Western and Soviet interference in the Middle East had no part ot play in the rise of militant islam?

Because that's just wrong. That's my point.

Professor Moriarty

AbusesToilets wrote: »

Your painting of the US as being responsible for Islamic extremism, ignores centuries of violence on the part of Islamic nations, under the guise of said religion. In a modern context, it both assumes more influence on the part of the US and denies the culpability of those nations and people for their choices and actions.

Historically, Islam has been more peaceful and tolerant than Christianity. Perhaps it's just a coincidence that the Western countries that have suffered most 'Islamic' terrorism were the countries bombing the crap out of Islamic countries in North Africa.

AbusesToilets

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

Historically, Islam has been more peaceful and tolerant than Christianity. Perhaps it's just a coincidence that the Western countries that have suffered most 'Islamic' terrorism were the countries bombing the crap out of Islamic countries in North Africa.

What exactly are you basing that claim on?

Professor Moriarty

AbusesToilets wrote: »

What exactly are basing that claim on?

Easily accessible facts. I have no intention of delivering a history lesson. You either know that Western countries were and are militarily involved in North Africa or you don't.

Leroy42

Hold on, before we get into a debate about the starting points and were blame lies in terms of the ME, lets just take a step back.

This debate started because POTUS, the President of the United States of America, believes that the Soviet-Afghanistan war was due to Afghanistan terrorists in USSR.

And that from this invasion, the costs became so much that the USSR collapsed due to bankruptcy.

He actually said this in front of real people and in front of TV cameras.

He has no more idea about the fundamentals behind islamic terrorism and the issues in the ME than a cat has of the existence of the Kuiper belt.

AbusesToilets

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

Easily accessible facts. I have no intention of delivering a history lesson. You either know that Western countries were and are militarily involved in North Africa or you don't.

Yes, I'm well aware they were involved in North Africa. I'm also well aware of countless other military actions and violence accomplished by people from Africa and the Middle East all by themselves. What's your point?

Professor Moriarty

AbusesToilets wrote: »

Yes, I'm well aware they were involved in North Africa. I'm also well aware of countless other military actions and violence accomplished by people from Africa and the Middle East all by themselves. What's your point?

My point is that there is cause and effect for recent Islamic terrorism in Western countries. I thought that would have been self-evident.

demfad

AbusesToilets wrote: »

Yes, I'm well aware they were involved in North Africa. I'm also well aware of countless other military actions and violence accomplished by people from Africa and the Middle East all by themselves. What's your point?

Can you document all the military actions that were carried out in Africa and the Middle East before Western colonial arrival?

Midlife

AbusesToilets wrote: »

Yes, I'm well aware they were involved in North Africa. I'm also well aware of countless other military actions and violence accomplished by people from Africa and the Middle East all by themselves. What's your point?

In fairness, I dion't think you've made an actual point. Beyond sarcastic one-liners and calling things ironic.

This started with a strawman by you and to be honest I think you're bored and want to spend the afternoon creating a islam related argument and getting stuck in.

I asked a question a while back

midlife wrote:

Do you think that Western and Soviet interference in the Middle East had no part ot play in the rise of militant islam?

everlast75

NPR had a good pod about what to expect from the Dems in control of the house. There was a reference to my fav person of all time - Newt Gingrich and his 1000 subpoenas to Clinton's admin regarding every little and last sniff of controversy, ie. he weaponized the House committees.

Basically, their approach will be that each of the three departments focus in on a number of scandals and stay in that lane.

Whitaker, the immigration issue and Trump's tax returns appear to be very high up in the agenda.

Trump is already bleating on about "Presidential harassment". The short, sharp answer to that is that Cummings sent 63 letters req info and got zero replies. Nunes didn't do a jot over oversight and so now, there needs to be a correction. And of course, if he wants to know what real presidential harassment is, ask Gingrich.

AbusesToilets

Midlife wrote: »

In fairness, I dion't think you've made an actual point. Beyond sarcastic one-liners and calling things ironic.

This started with a strawman by you and to be honest I think you're bored and want to spend the afternoon creating a islam related argument and getting stuck in.

I asked a question a while back

At what point in its history, has Islam not been militant? Folks on here are so eager to lay the origins of violent extremism on the doorstep of Western countries, when in fact it has always been a strong facet of Islam.

The West gained ascendancy in the region after the world wars, and I'm not arguing that didn't take advantage of their position. Laying the blame for the current nature of radical islam solely on them is wrong however.

Havockk

AbusesToilets wrote: »

At what point in its history, has Islam not been militant?

When has Christianity?

Chips Lovell

Mod Note

Hi folks,
The topic of this thread is the presidency of Donald Trump, not Islam. Let's get back on topic please.

Thanks.

pixelburp

Leroy42 wrote: »

Hold on, before we get into a debate about the starting points and were blame lies in terms of the ME, lets just take a step back.

This debate started because POTUS, the President of the United States of America, believes that the Soviet-Afghanistan war was due to Afghanistan terrorists in USSR.

And that from this invasion, the costs became so much that the USSR collapsed due to bankruptcy.

He actually said this in front of real people and in front of TV cameras.

He has no more idea about the fundamentals behind islamic terrorism and the issues in the ME than a cat has of the existence of the Kuiper belt.

Also, didn't realise until now that he made all these comments on Afghanistan while, lying in front of him on the table, was a printed out version of that bizarre "Sanctions are Coming" meme he Tweeted months ago. Apparently no reference or comments were made about the poster - or indeed what sanctions and who they were aimed at - it just sat in front of Trump throughout the entire meeting.

everlast75

pixelburp wrote: »

Also, didn't realise until now that he made all these comments on Afghanistan while, lying in front of him on the table, was a printed out version of that bizarre "Sanctions are Coming" meme he Tweeted months ago. Apparently no reference or comments were made about the poster - or indeed what sanctions and who they were aimed at - it just sat in front of Trump throughout the entire meeting.

Trust Trump to reference the one TV show that proves building a wall doesn't work

mcmoustache

pixelburp wrote: »

Also, didn't realise until now that he made all these comments on Afghanistan while, lying in front of him on the table, was a printed out version of that bizarre "Sanctions are Coming" meme he Tweeted months ago. Apparently no reference or comments were made about the poster - or indeed what sanctions and who they were aimed at - it just sat in front of Trump throughout the entire meeting.

It's low expectations. Trump being a childish, self-obsessed idiot* isn't news anymore.




* according to intelligent people who worked in Trump's cabinet.

listermint

AbusesToilets wrote: »

At what point in its history, has Islam not been militant? Folks on here are so eager to lay the origins of violent extremism on the doorstep of Western countries, when in fact it has always been a strong facet of Islam.

The West gained ascendancy in the region after the world wars, and I'm not arguing that didn't take advantage of their position. Laying the blame for the current nature of radical islam solely on them is wrong however.

The west did what after what .



That second last sentence shows a complete disregard to all known history teachings.

Sierra Oscar

The Bad Stuff That the Stock Market Worried About Is Starting to Happen

It'll be interesting to see how Trump deals with the growing economic challenge in the months ahead. He has been somewhat blessed after inheriting a relatively strong economy, but the outlook isn't all that positive looking at the moment. We are undoubtadely at that stage in the economic cycle where growth weakens, but all the trade upheaval and general political chaos isn't helping to calm the situation. How will his supporters in the rust belt communities react if a recession sets in? Maybe just blame 'da libs & globalists' anyway?

listermint

Sierra Oscar wrote: »

The Bad Stuff That the Stock Market Worried About Is Starting to Happen

It'll be interesting to see how Trump deals with the growing economic challenge in the months ahead. He has been somewhat blessed after inheriting a relatively strong economy, but the outlook isn't all that positive looking at the moment. We are undoubtadely at that stage in the economic cycle where growth weakens, but all the trade upheaval and general political chaos isn't helping to calm the situation. How will his supporters in the rust belt communities react if a recession sets in? Maybe just blame 'da libs & globalists' anyway?

I don't he nor the GOP are equipped to deal with this crisis. And that's exactly what it is.

Interesting times for everyone ahead.

Pelvis

Trump is in the press briefing room for the first time now for an impromptu briefing.

Odd.

Itssoeasy

Pelvis wrote: »

Trump is in the press briefing room for the first time now for an impromptu briefing.

Odd.

Oh Christ someone watch it as I don't have to.

batgoat

Itssoeasy wrote: »

Oh Christ someone watch it as I don't have to.

It was the border agents union endorsing Trump for 2020. He didn't take questions.

https://twitter.com/owillis/status/1080940443037302784?s=19

Itssoeasy

batgoat wrote: »

It was the border agents union endorsing Trump for 2020. He didn't take questions.

https://twitter.com/owillis/status/1080940443037302784?s=19

Thank Christ for that.

everlast75

A BS tactic to take attention away from Pelosi getting the gavel IMHO

Headshot

everlast75 wrote: »

A BS tactic to take attention away from Pelosi getting the gavel IMHO

I was just about to post something along this line.

He just wanted to distract from the Dem's triumph. Such a child, it's all about Trump.......

everlast75

Headshot wrote: »

I was just about to post something along this line.

He just wanted to distract from the Dem's triumph. Such a child, it's all about Trump.......

Calling it a press conference and not taking any questions either.

A sham of an administration

Quin_Dub

Sierra Oscar wrote: »

The Bad Stuff That the Stock Market Worried About Is Starting to Happen

It'll be interesting to see how Trump deals with the growing economic challenge in the months ahead. He has been somewhat blessed after inheriting a relatively strong economy, but the outlook isn't all that positive looking at the moment. We are undoubtadely at that stage in the economic cycle where growth weakens, but all the trade upheaval and general political chaos isn't helping to calm the situation. How will his supporters in the rust belt communities react if a recession sets in? Maybe just blame 'da libs & globalists' anyway?

listermint wrote: »

I don't he nor the GOP are equipped to deal with this crisis. And that's exactly what it is.

Interesting times for everyone ahead.

Actually - The GOP are quite ready.. they've been doing it for 40+ years..

Now that the Dems have some level of control , it's time to roll out "The Two Santa Clauses"

Get ready to see it on your TV. The GOP is about to kick back into Two Santa Clauses mode and restart the scam they’ve been running since Reagan.

It’ll predictably begin in the first week or two of January, probably first on “Meet the Press” and other Sunday shows that feature “serious thinkers” and only rarely challenge Republicans. It’ll simultaneously roll out on Fox, on right-wing hate radio, and in the conservative media.

And there are more than a few “Third Way” Democrats eager to go along with it.

At its core, the strategy is simple and elegant: When Republicans are in power, run up as much debt as possible, mostly by borrowing and giving that cash to the Republican donor class through tax cuts and corporate subsidies; when Democrats have political power, Republicans suddenly become hysterical about the debt and demand that Dems keep taxes low while cutting social spending.

If successful, not only will Republicans (and corporate-funded Dems) block any genuinely progressive spending legislation in 2019 or 2020, but they’ll prevent any possibility of debt-free college, Medicare for All, or a Green New Deal in the entire next presidential term, clear through 2024 or beyond.

The overall article is a bit long , but it's fascinating..

pixelburp

It's push-pull, good-cop-bad-cop, etc and the horrible inescapable cycle of American politics & its two party system - and what I always presumed to be the inevitable course of Trump and post-Trump: the GOP crippling the economy with their tax cuts to businesses and the wealthy, with various social services like Medicaid gutted in many states; the Democrats come in on a wave of indignation and attempt to shore up the economy but ... that means restoring taxes and spending. Cue Republicans and their mouthpieces folding their collective brows into that well practised 'fiscal concern' model. And so it goes.

Wanderer78

pixelburp wrote:

It's push-pull, good-cop-bad-cop, etc and the horrible inescapable cycle of American politics & its two party system - and what I always presumed to be the inevitable course of Trump and post-Trump: the GOP crippling the economy with their tax cuts to businesses and the wealthy, with various social services like Medicaid gutted in many states; the Democrats come in on a wave of indignation and attempt to shore up the economy but ... that means restoring taxes and spending. Cue Republicans and their mouthpieces folding their collective brows into that well practised 'fiscal concern' model. And so it goes.

Can't see it changing anytime soon anyway, as we watch this experiment slowly and painfully fail

amandstu

Wanderer78 wrote: »

Can't see it changing anytime soon anyway, as we watch this experiment slowly and painfully fail

When partisanship is the problem a temporary cure can be for a common external threat to become apparent as in a war.

I am in favour/opinion of the fight to protect the environment as being such a trigger.

I feel it is such a natural impulse that most people** will eventually get in line and coalesce around its imperatives.

The new revolution is just around the corner (that or a slow or rapid demise-which may sadly already have begun)

** transcending political borders like a second wave of the hated/feared globalization