Donald Trump presidency discussion thread V

everlast75

Manic Moran wrote: »

Because they might get a number of other concessions out of it?

It wasn't that long ago that deals were made in Congress. "Yeah, we don't like A, and you don't like B, but I'll give you A if you give us B".

Government actually worked, back then...

Now, it's "We don't like A, you don't like B, but we will accept not getting B in order to make sure you don't get A."

There should be some sort 'price' at which both sides will compromise.

Like when Trump was offered 25mil in Feb for the wall and rejected it?

Or when both houses approved a spending Bill, Ann Coulter and Rush Limbaugh chucked a wobbler and Trump panicked and refused to sign it?

Don't give me that "both sides" nonsense. People are sick of it.

Trump had 2 years full control and didn't think it was important, despite making it one of his pledges.

The Dems get the house and all of a sudden, its an emergency, despite the facts saying otherwise.

He wanted a fight and he's got one. He just hasn't a clue what to do about it.

Eric Cartman

20Cent wrote: »

Previous presidents have been at least rational though, a bit different now. Trump could re open the government while negotiations take place but he is choosing not to.

I think its a power play to be able to say he got a clean sweep on his big election promises* , I think the dems are using this wrong, if they gave him the wall, which if its just a metal fence they all agreed to vote for for years anyway , and didnt ask to take away any of his other big promises then they could have literally everything else. The man just wants to go to an election saying " i promised there 5-10 things and delivered* all of them" He wants the dems to capiitulate so he can say they agreed with the wall so they cant use it in 2020

*before anyone in the cheap seats starts skwalking, Im aware that most of the delivery is compromises or still in progress, but we all know that doesnt matter to donny or most of the americans watching him on tv saying he delivered it all.

Christy42

Manic Moran wrote: »

WinnyThePoo wrote: »

There will be no negotiations on a 'wall'. The dems aren't going sign off on it.

Why on earth would anybody.

Because they might get a number of other concessions out of it?

It wasn't that long ago that deals were made in Congress. "Yeah, we don't like A, and you don't like B, but I'll give you A if you give us B".

Government actually worked, back then...

Now, it's "We don't like A, you don't like B, but we will accept not getting B in order to make sure you don't get A."

There should be some sort 'price' at which both sides will compromise.

That is how negotiations work.

I might note that at no point in your post did you make note of thousands of ordinary people being made suffer as part of these negotiations.

Dems have stated no negotiations before the government is reopened. Then we have a proper negotiation without this childish brinkmanship.

If republicans want a wall then they can negotiate without holding thousands to ransom.

prawnsambo

Manic Moran wrote: »

Because they might get a number of other concessions out of it?

It wasn't that long ago that deals were made in Congress. "Yeah, we don't like A, and you don't like B, but I'll give you A if you give us B".

Government actually worked, back then...

Now, it's "We don't like A, you don't like B, but we will accept not getting B in order to make sure you don't get A."

There should be some sort 'price' at which both sides will compromise.

For a vanity project? Seriously? This is not serious business. This is lunacy which cannot be allowed continue. And all the time Trump had control of both houses and now it's suddenly so important, people aren't getting paid their due wages. Words fail me.

Manic Moran

Christy42 wrote: »

That is how negotiations work.

I might note that at no point in your post did you make note of thousands of ordinary people being made suffer as part of these negotiations.

Dems have stated no negotiations before the government is reopened. Then we have a proper negotiation without this childish brinkmanship.

If republicans want a wall then they can negotiate without holding thousands to ransom.

Isn't that what happened last year? There was a backdown, a promise for further discussion... then nothing. I can see why Trump might be a little stubborn now.

What's the long game, here?

Let us stipulate that this is a vanity project. It may not be the most efficient use of $5bn, but it's not entirely useless either, neither is it a huge budget item in the federal government's scheme of things. In return for this vanity project, the Democrats have their best chance of getting some significant pet project through.

If Trump is forced to back down, and the Democrats then attempt to put whatever project or legislation through in the normal environment, do you think there is any chance that Trump or the Republican Senate will allow it to get any further than the House Floor?

Is refusing the $5bn going to be worth another year of the government not getting anything useful done?

Leroy42

Because Trump himself has shown time and again that he doesn't do negotiation or compromise. It is his way or nothing. The DNC already forwarded a deal to him a few months ago, which he stated to the press that he would sign, but when he received it he refused. Where was his compromise.

Now all of a sudden, like TM in the UK, we are supposed to think he is all about compromise?

If the DNC give an inch he will go for the juggular. It is pretty much stated in his book. Lie, cheat say whatever you have to say to get the deal and once you have it you can start to pull back on all the promises as people will have moved on.

Trumps real problem in all this is how so utterly transparent he is. He has, and continue to, call Nancy and Chuck names like a school child. Does that give you confidence that he is looking to make a deal? That he stated that he would take responsibility for the shutdown before spending nearly everyday trying to blame the DNC. Does that sound like a man getting ready to compromise?

batgoat

The thing is Manic, I'd put money on it that the GOP will block anything that the dems try to get through regardless. It's what they did throughout Obama's time in office and Trump basically spent his first two years trying to revert Obama era policies. So to think Trump is up for real negotiation or that the GOP will become more amicable if they let Trump have his xenophobic wall, that seems like wishful thinking.:rolleyes:

Igotadose

Manic Moran wrote: »

Let us stipulate that this is a vanity project. It may not be the most efficient use of $5bn, but it's not entirely useless either.
/QUOTE]


Please. Do you think they'll build more than about 3 feet of this wall for $5bn? It's the USG after all. This is a giveaway to Trumpco. Who'll get the contracts? How long will the overruns be? It's entirely useless as a wall.

$5bn pays for lots of firearms for the military, or increases in food stamps to people, or reduces the deficit that tiny amount.

pixelburp

Manic Moran wrote: »

Isn't that what happened last year? There was a backdown, a promise for further discussion... then nothing. I can see why Trump might be a little stubborn now.

What's the long game, here?

Let us stipulate that this is a vanity project. It may not be the most efficient use of $5bn, but it's not entirely useless either, neither is it a huge budget item in the federal government's scheme of things.

It also needs stipulating that the $5 billion is a completely phantom figure, with no basis in any concrete plan or reality. It's entirely possible that were the 5 billion a vaguely itemised figure - an extra billion for increased patrols, a new inter-departmental agency, something - to deliver some demonstrable output, it might have snuck into a budget. But it's not - it's literally a random figure (that kept changing throughout Trumps candidature) where even the physicality of 'the wall' itself isn't decided on. It's a "big, beautiful wall".

This is a blank-cheque situation for something that's just a slogan, where nobody seriously put together a costing. It has no business being part of a serious country's budget discussion nor should be humoured for the sake of a candidate who ran on bitesize slogans.

Thargor

Mass flight groundings and cancellations should crank the pressure up a bit:

https://www.mediaite.com/tv/aviation-unions-say-mass-flight-cancelations-soon-likely-due-to-shutdown-the-system-will-completely-unravel/

mcmoustache

Manic Moran wrote: »

Is refusing the $5bn going to be worth another year of the government not getting anything useful done?

It would be silly to give in here because there's nothing to stop Trump and McConnell pulling the same trick a month later. Not to mention the precedent that would allow a hypothetical Democratic Senate and Presidency to come after your guns and fetuses.

salmocab

5 billion isn’t enough to build the wall it will cost a multiple of that and then needs constant maintenance. It’s a money pit and is unlikely to be even finished inside the 6 years of a possible Trump presidency.
It’s a completely ridiculous way to spend money and all politics aside it’s just a waste of tax payers money.

aloyisious

Manic Moran wrote: »

Isn't that what happened last year? There was a backdown, a promise for further discussion... then nothing. I can see why Trump might be a little stubborn now.

What's the long game, here?

Let us stipulate that this is a vanity project. It may not be the most efficient use of $5bn, but it's not entirely useless either, neither is it a huge budget item in the federal government's scheme of things. In return for this vanity project, the Democrats have their best chance of getting some significant pet project through.

If Trump is forced to back down, and the Democrats then attempt to put whatever project or legislation through in the normal environment, do you think there is any chance that Trump or the Republican Senate will allow it to get any further than the House Floor?

Is refusing the $5bn going to be worth another year of the government not getting anything useful done?

Good question about the long game here. Regardless to the political game being played by the regular Washington insiders, do you yourself trust Don to follow through on anything he says he'll do if the Dems give him the requested billions? He has a proven track record of welshing on deals AND actual contracts he's signed with others. It seems to me from his long-term play [even over the last two years] that, for him, its all about him being seen as No 1 dealmaker and insisting the other party in the deal acknowledge that. The actual outcome to the deal proper is not important to him. If he was concerned about the deal proper for the US itself, he'd cede some ground to the Dems to allow for a long game win for the GOP and the US.

No matter what is built along the border, it won't work except as an expensive delaying tactic which will be got around. You know that anything being built now is under watch by the smugglers engineers 24/7 for weaknesses. So the only way out of the impasse is for the GOP and the Dems to make a Washington insider deal which will not be mentioned to Don or Lindsey and for the Dems to let him have a partial victory without him smelling a rat. That will be the trick.

IMO, Mike Pence would probably play along with such a deal but Lindsey would run & squeal. I've a fair idea that Mitch McConnell would just love to see the back of Don & Lindsey.

On an aside, I also reckon that Lindsey would love the idea [as far fetched as it might seem now] for Don to have him as his running mate in 2020 [hadn't realised it is next year] and that is why he's been such a loyalist to Don [while being just critical enough about Dons actions to keep in with the Washington set] that he has ambitions outside the Senate. along with probably filling Mitch's seat as an alternative.

everlast75

Are Rudy and Trump the worst Solicitor and client combination ever?

https://twitter.com/GeoffRBennett/status/1087446605786218498?s=19

26000 Elephants

I like how the GOP feel the need to pay UC_RUSAL before they will pay their own state workers. Trumps 'deal' to lift sanctions on oligarchs puts them right back in the driving seat.

The level of complicity in the Trump organisation is simply astounding.

https://twitter.com/kenvogel/status/1087446448793403393

aloyisious

everlast75 wrote: »

Are Rudy and Trump the worst Solicitor and client combination ever?

https://twitter.com/GeoffRBennett/status/1087446605786218498?s=19

Is this an indication that the SC's team has been in contact with another Trump lawyer?

smurgen

Manic Moran wrote: »

Whatever the truth behind this (and I'm sure everyone is editing the heck out of things), I strongly suspect the story is not what is initially going around.

smurgen wrote: »

Good to see you pick the side of a trump maga brat than a veteran.shows your true colours.

Firstly, if there's a public badge I'm supposed to be wearing saying "I'm a combat vet, I deserve better treatment and respect than the average person", someone forgot to issue it to me.

Secondly, now the New York Times ( https://www.nytimes.com/2019/01/20/us/nathan-phillips-covington.html ) and CNN https://www.cnn.com/videos/us/2019/01/20/teens-mock-native-elder-sidner-pkg-nr-vpx.cnn/video/playlists/top-news-videos/ have chimed in saying that "there is more to the story than what you see online." (quoting CNN), what true colors are they showing compared

So turns out this kentucky catholic school has form and videos and pictures of the students wearing blackface at basketball games and goading black players. https://heavy.com/news/2019/01/covington-catholic-blackface-videos-photos/

Christy42

Manic Moran wrote: »

Christy42 wrote: »

That is how negotiations work.

I might note that at no point in your post did you make note of thousands of ordinary people being made suffer as part of these negotiations.

Dems have stated no negotiations before the government is reopened. Then we have a proper negotiation without this childish brinkmanship.

If republicans want a wall then they can negotiate without holding thousands to ransom.

Isn't that what happened last year? There was a backdown, a promise for further discussion... then nothing. I can see why Trump might be a little stubborn now.

What's the long game, here?

Let us stipulate that this is a vanity project. It may not be the most efficient use of $5bn, but it's not entirely useless either, neither is it a huge budget item in the federal government's scheme of things. In return for this vanity project, the Democrats have their best chance of getting some significant pet project through.

If Trump is forced to back down, and the Democrats then attempt to put whatever project or legislation through in the normal environment, do you think there is any chance that Trump or the Republican Senate will allow it to get any further than the House Floor?

Is refusing the $5bn going to be worth another year of the government not getting anything useful done?

Others have pointed out that the 5bn is not the full cost of this.

Second Trump was offered 25 billion last year. I believe negotiations ended with him deciding he wasn't bothered.

The Democrats know it is not a good chance for their favourite project as Trump has already dismissed that deal. So, nope still on Trump here. He knows what Dems want for the wall. Giving up token temporary offers won't swing them (nor was it meant to).

As for future stuff the Democrats want to get through, well negotiations can be made for various GOP items to go through the house as well when those negotiations don't actively harm American people who they are meant to represent.

FatherTed

salmocab wrote: »

5 billion isn’t enough to build the wall it will cost a multiple of that and then needs constant maintenance. It’s a money pit and is unlikely to be even finished inside the 6 years of a possible Trump presidency.
It’s a completely ridiculous way to spend money and all politics aside it’s just a waste of tax payers money.

Exactly. It is supposed to be $20B in the end.

Anyways, if this illegal immigration is such an emergency now, why didn't Trump & GOP pass this a year ago when the number of illegal immigrants coming across the southern border was much higher and they had to power to pass it without the Dems?

Also, the vast majority of illegals come to the US via airports by overstaying their visa. Not a word on that from Trump the GOP.

Manic Moran

batgoat wrote: »

The thing is Manic, I'd put money on it that the GOP will block anything that the dems try to get through regardless. It's what they did throughout Obama's time in office and Trump basically spent his first two years trying to revert Obama era policies. So to think Trump is up for real negotiation or that the GOP will become more amicable if they let Trump have his xenophobic wall, that seems like wishful thinking.:rolleyes:

Which is exactly why this is the better time for the Democrats to put something through, if they want to do it.

Republicans as a group aren't interested in a wall. It's why Congress never sent one to Trump even when they had total control of Congress. Trump is interested in the wall, and it seems he's willing to run the country into the ground to get it. And as he's doing so, opinion polls show, Republicans are getting the blame.

You are quite right that in normal government operations, the Republicans will block anything that the Democrats will submit, but today, as we are sitting in front of our keyboards, they are getting slated for the block in government. Can you come up with a time in the next two years where there will be this much pressure on Republicans in Congress to let something through that the Democrats want? It is a golden opportunity to actually get some significant concessions, whilst also getting folks paid again.

So turns out this kentucky catholic school has form and videos and pictures of the students wearing blackface at basketball games and goading black players. https://heavy.com/news/2019/01/covington-catholic-blackface-videos-photos/

And if they wore blackface or goaded anyone at the Lincoln Memorial, I'm sure you can provide me a timestamp on the video. (Or, looking at the link, if anyone wore blackface in the last six years, which longer than the students in question have been in the school)

mcmoustache

Manic Moran wrote: »

And if they wore blackface or goaded anyone at the Lincoln Memorial, I'm sure you can provide me a timestamp on the video.

I've stayed out of this because the redcaps weren't the main shít-stirrers in all this but if you want to see some goading, here you go.


https://twitter.com/cbouzy/status/1087403613754978305

mcmoustache

technics121O wrote: »

hey guys buzzfeeed have an amazing new story about trump

click here >>>

??


That's just a link to a site selling penis enlargements. I'm not sure what your point is.

everlast75

mcmoustache wrote: »

??


That's just a link to a site selling penis enlargements. I'm not sure what your point is.

I think the joke is that it's clickbait, like buzzfeed.

And yes, Rudy confirmed that they were in touch with SC and asked to them to make a statement about that story. Could be very suspect or innocent, depending on what way the question was asked.

I'm beginning to worry about Rudy's mental health. I used to think his slip ups were on propose, to get out in front of they story about to drop. This though....

https://twitter.com/kylegriffin1/status/1087563055226146816?s=19

#OhLordyThereAreTapes

frag420

mcmoustache wrote: »

??


That's just a link to a site selling penis enlargements. I'm not sure what your point is.

He has referal codes as a regular buyer he can share I guess...

RIGOLO

A very bad week for the main stream media , and the dissemination of FAKENEWS.
They are just proving, if proof were needed of their bias, hate and in ept reporting skills.

First we had last weeks whole Buzzfeed Cohen Trump story that blew back in the lefts face spectacularly. The totalitarian left rushes off in their haste for impeachment thinking they finally have their man, only for Mueller himself to come out and state theres no truth in the Buzzfeed story. The same Buzzfeed that broke the dossier story in the first place.

And no sooner had the left retreated with their tails between their legs, than they came right back and swallowed hook line and sinker the whole Covington High School story, with the MAGA hats and white privilege. Before once again when the real facts came out the left establishment nearly broke Twitter in their rush to delete their presumptious and hateful tweets.

It all reminds me of the heyday days of the Russian Communist party, when there were 2 ‘OFFICIAL’ Newspapers sanctioned by the Soviet Communist Politburo.
One was called PRAVDA – loosely translated as ‘THE TRUTH’
One was called IZVESTIA – loosely translated as ‘THE NEWS’
Meanwhile the Russian people had a saying …
Theres no news in The Truth, and no truth in The News……. …..
40 years later we have mainstream media fakenews on steroids.

As one astute commentator said, the main stream media cant spell HATE, without HAT… MAGA.

Oh and yes congrats to the Dems on taking the House, it will keep their self-destuctive policys front and centre.

everlast75

RIGOLO wrote: »

A very bad week for the main stream media , and the dissemination of FAKENEWS.
They are just proving, if proof were needed of their bias, hate and in ept reporting skills.

First we had last weeks whole Buzzfeed Cohen Trump story that blew back in the lefts face spectacularly. The totalitarian left rushes off in their haste for impeachment thinking they finally have their man, only for Mueller himself to come out and state theres no truth in the Buzzfeed story. The same Buzzfeed that broke the dossier story in the first place.

And no sooner had the left retreated with their tails between their legs, than they came right back and swallowed hook line and sinker the whole Covington High School story, with the MAGA hats and white privilege. Before once again when the real facts came out the left establishment nearly broke Twitter in their rush to delete their presumptious and hateful tweets.

It all reminds me of the heyday days of the Russian Communist party, when there were 2 ‘OFFICIAL’ Newspapers sanctioned by the Soviet Communist Politburo.
One was called PRAVDA – loosely translated as ‘THE TRUTH’
One was called IZVESTIA – loosely translated as ‘THE NEWS’
Meanwhile the Russian people had a saying …
Theres no news in The Truth, and no truth in The News……. …..
40 years later we have mainstream media fakenews on steroids.

As one astute commentator said, the main stream media cant spell HATE, without HAT… MAGA.

Oh and yes congrats to the Dems on taking the House, it will keep their self-destuctive policys front and centre.

Bad 2 years for Trump.

8500+ lies in 2 years.

Leroy42

Manic Moran wrote: »

Which is exactly why this is the better time for the Democrats to put something through, if they want to do it.

Republicans as a group aren't interested in a wall. It's why Congress never sent one to Trump even when they had total control of Congress. Trump is interested in the wall, and it seems he's willing to run the country into the ground to get it. And as he's doing so, opinion polls show, Republicans are getting the blame.

You are quite right that in normal government operations, the Republicans will block anything that the Democrats will submit, but today, as we are sitting in front of our keyboards, they are getting slated for the block in government. Can you come up with a time in the next two years where there will be this much pressure on Republicans in Congress to let something through that the Democrats want? It is a golden opportunity to actually get some significant concessions, whilst also getting folks paid again.

The other way to look at it is that if this continues with the GOP getting the blame the DNC will win the POTUS and possible the Senate and they will have complete control to do anything they want so why help dig the GOP out of the hole that Trump has dug for them, when they simply have to wait this out.

The GOP could force Trump to drop the wall (as they effectively did for the last two years) and I am sure they could get the DNC to agree to other things they want.

The GOP and Trump are setting a very dangerous precedent here. That the POTUS is quite entitled to shutdown government whenever he feels like he is not getting his way and his party will dutifully fall in behind him.

Hopefully if the DNC get the POTUS they will do the same with gun control and I am sure you will be on here asking the GOP to simply give in on gun control to get the workers paid

pixelburp

RIGOLO wrote: »

[...]
First we had last weeks whole Buzzfeed Cohen Trump story that blew back in the lefts face spectacularly. The totalitarian left rushes off in their haste for impeachment thinking they finally have their man, only for Mueller himself to come out and state theres no truth in the Buzzfeed story. The same Buzzfeed that broke the dossier story in the first place.
[...]

Just thought I'd actually have a look at what it was Mueller's office specifically said - ya know, for the sake of having an honest opinion - he does not say there's "No truth". This is the exact quote from the buzzfeed article itself:

“BuzzFeed’s description of specific statements to the Special Counsel’s Office, and characterization of documents and testimony obtained by this office, regarding Michael Cohen’s Congressional testimony are not accurate,”

"Not accurate" is not the same as "no truth" and were you being an honest debater here, you'd acknowledge this important difference too. This is an ongoing legal investigation: aside from the fact no competent legal team would jeopardise their investigation with tipping their hat, the entirety of that statement is coded in delicate, ambiguous language. This is not the total repudiation you and others seem to wish it to be...

It's obvious BuzzFeed (who are standing by their report, there have been no retractions so they obviously feel it's 100%) made a balls of the report - but the delight with which the likes of yourself jump onto it like some 'fake news' smoking gun is itself telling and informative.

It's well and good talking of 'rushing off in their haste' when you're doing it yourself.

RIGOLO

Leroy42 wrote: »

The other way to look at it is that if this continues with the GOP getting the blame the DNC will win the POTUS and possible the Senate and they will have complete control to do anything they want so why help dig the GOP out of the hole that Trump has dug for them, when they simply have to wait this out.

The GOP could force Trump to drop the wall (as they effectively did for the last two years) and I am sure they could get the DNC to agree to other things they want.

The GOP and Trump are setting a very dangerous precedent here. That the POTUS is quite entitled to shutdown government whenever he feels like he is not getting his way and his party will dutifully fall in behind him.

Hopefully if the DNC get the POTUS they will do the same with gun control and I am sure you will be on here asking the GOP to simply give in on gun control to get the workers paid

The Democrats already had that, when Obama took office in 2009 they had a 257>178 majority in the House and a majority in Congress also (59 seats in their caucus just one shy of the 60 filibuster)
And look how that turned out .. what was it over 1700 National, state and local seats lost be Democrats during his reign

nah the Dems blew it when they had TOTAL CONTROL and America will never let that happen again.

The Trump Administration has gotten more done in 2 years , the Obama did in 8 . Trump admin is goign to crank up the heat for the next 2 years, and democrats will be so consumed with in-fighting they wont see whats coming.

Leroy42

So we are no longer discussing Trump, we are back to 2009!

Is your point that the DNC should give in to Trump's silly demand to "build the wall", (the type of wall, where it is and how much is not specified) because they lost seats in 2009?

Why not look at the massive success in the 2018 elections. Control of the house, more women, more minorities. The GOP have reacted to that by shutting down the government and are being blamed for it.

Do you think the current policy of Trump and the GOP, to continue the shutdown indefinitely unless Trump gets the arbitrarily created $5.7bn for a vanity project with no statistical backup and which doesn't deal with the vast majority of illegal immigration or incoming drugs, is the right way to go and why do you think it is up to the DNC to give in?

Surely your own example of 2009, where the GOP basically positioned itself to refuse to even contemplate negotiation with Obama, and the massive level wide seats gains they made is proof that the DNC are on the right strategy?