Donald Trump presidency discussion thread V

everlast75

J.
F.
Christ.


https://twitter.com/IngrahamAngle/status/1087783479247552513?s=19

Gbear

This is ultimately just another example of the how the US government is an archaic institution long overdue a refresh in procedure.

It should not be possible for the functioning of government to just stop by default if things aren't actively done to make sure it keeps running.

I would hope that, like the filibuster, gerrymandering, voter suppression and other anti-democratic tools that are innate to the US system, the Democrats put the ability to hold the civil service and various other branches of government to ransom firmly in their crosshairs when they next have the opportunity to pass legislation (2020 at the earliest, you'd have to think).

Manic Moran

mcmoustache wrote: »

Yep and one party wants to open the government and the other does not. It really is that simple.

And it is also utterly irrelevant. The shutdown could be caused by The Great Green Arkelsesure for all the people not getting paid care. Fine, the Democrats have the moral high ground on this shutdown faceoff. This helps nothing. Republican blame feeds nobody.

Further, am I wrong in saying that there are actually three sides to this?
Trump, who wants the wall, and will shut down the government to get it.
Republicans, who don’t much care about the wall, have managed to avoid sending him wall money thus far, but are now willing to fund it in order to get the government open because they’re getting blamed for it at the polls. And if this means doing a deal with the a Democrats to do it, so be it.
Democrats, who actively oppose the wall, and are happy enough to see the government shut down as long as they don’t fund the wall and Republicans are getting most of the blame.

If you wanted the government open because food is more important to you than political points, which of the three positions seems to be fastest to a resolution? The blame for the situation is purely on Trump. I think most people are aware of this. Since he seems to be rather stubborn and detached from the realities on the ground, is the solution the furloughed staff are going to hope for going to be “convince trump to see reason”, or “just give him the damned wall already?”

everlast75

I see how people can be frustrated at the shutdown, but effectively Trump here is holding their wages to ransom.

What happens if the Dems give in to this?

The next time Trump throws a tantrum and threatens to shut down the government, the precedent is set.

And what credit do you think the Dems might get if they did capitulate? Nothing but grief from the Reps, and criticism from the workers who wanted them to hold out.

Water John

Trump decided this was his way of dealing with a House, controlled by the Dems.
It's straight out of his business practises. He chose it rather than negotiate.

mcmoustache

Manic Moran wrote: »

And it is also utterly irrelevant. The shutdown could be caused by The Great Green Arkelsesure for all the people not getting paid care. Fine, the Democrats have the moral high ground on this shutdown faceoff. This helps nothing. Republican blame feeds nobody.

Further, am I wrong in saying that there are actually three sides to this?
Trump, who wants the wall, and will shut down the government to get it.
Republicans, who don’t much care about the wall, have managed to avoid sending him wall money thus far, but are now willing to fund it in order to get the government open because they’re getting blamed for it at the polls. And if this means doing a deal with the a Democrats to do it, so be it.
Democrats, who actively oppose the wall, and are happy enough to see the government shut down as long as they don’t fund the wall and Republicans are getting most of the blame.

If you wanted the government open because food is more important to you than political points, which of the three positions seems to be fastest to a resolution? The blame for the situation is purely on Trump. I think most people are aware of this. Since he seems to be rather stubborn and detached from the realities on the ground, is the solution the furloughed staff are going to hope for going to be “convince trump to see reason”, or “just give him the damned wall already?”

I appreciate the response but the argument is still a case of giving him what he wants this time so that he stops hurting people for now. If they give him what he wants now, what's to stop him pulling the same nonsense again? Don't forget that there are people around him who see the shutdown as an end in itself. If the Dems cave, he and those who have his ear will definitely create another shutdown.

Midlife

mcmoustache wrote: »

I appreciate the response but the argument is still a case of giving him what he wants this time so that he stops hurting people for now. If they give him what he wants now, what's to stop him pulling the same nonsense again?

Sure, what could go wrong with a strategy of appeasment towards a right wing demagogue?

dr.fuzzenstein

Water John wrote: »

Trump decided this was his way of dealing with a House, controlled by the Dems.
It's straight out of his business practises. He chose it rather than negotiate.

I don't think he ever wanted to do this the easy way.
Putting on my (very light) tinfoil hat, I'd wager Trump didn't just want to plow through a wall (no pun), it would be build, big whoop and people would gradually realise nothing has changed. So what.
Instead he waited until everything was against him, so he would have to fight to the very end to force it through against maximum resistance. Unless he's stupid as bread, he would have realised the Reps would lose the house.
It is now his own little sadistic game to demonstrate his power and to prove that nothing can hold him back.
The actual end result won't matter. Even if he gets 5 meters of picket fence, he will gloat to the world how he defeated the Dems, how nothing can hold him back and his moronic followers will break out in a gigantic circle jerk not seen since his election.
If he loses, he will play the victim, maximize the "us Vs them" narrative and his base will also lap that up.
I am very sad to say that, as far as Trump's base is concerned, the harder the democrats are fighting Trump, the harder they will cling on to him.

salmocab

5 billion won’t build it, if they give in now he’ll be back in 6 months looking for more. Shutting down government will quickly become his go to move.

brooke 2

everlast75 wrote: »

J.
F.
Christ.


https://twitter.com/IngrahamAngle/status/1087783479247552513?s=19

Am surprised it took this long!! :rolleyes:

everlast75

McConnell just objected 3 hours ago to the 10th Bill proposed to end the shutdown..... but what about them Dems, eh?

aloyisious

everlast75 wrote: »

McConnell just objected 3 hours ago to the 10th Bill proposed to end the shutdown..... but what about them Dems, eh?

Is it a bill in this reported agreed plan?

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2019/jan/22/senate-republicans-shutdown-bill-trump-plan

Maybe this might happen in the near future. Under Article 1 Section 7 of the Constitution, the president can veto a bill, but Congress can override the president's veto with a two-thirds majority vote in both chambers if enough pressure builds up on the GOP senators backing Dons stance, they'll stand up against his involving them in blackmail, that they are there to serve the people and not the president.

Christy42

Manic Moran wrote: »

mcmoustache wrote: »

Yep and one party wants to open the government and the other does not. It really is that simple.

And it is also utterly irrelevant. The shutdown could be caused by The Great Green Arkelsesure for all the people not getting paid care. Fine, the Democrats have the moral high ground on this shutdown faceoff. This helps nothing. Republican blame feeds nobody.

Further, am I wrong in saying that there are actually three sides to this?
Trump, who wants the wall, and will shut down the government to get it.
Republicans, who don’t much care about the wall, have managed to avoid sending him wall money thus far, but are now willing to fund it in order to get the government open because they’re getting blamed for it at the polls. And if this means doing a deal with the a Democrats to do it, so be it.
Democrats, who actively oppose the wall, and are happy enough to see the government shut down as long as they don’t fund the wall and Republicans are getting most of the blame.

If you wanted the government open because food is more important to you than political points, which of the three positions seems to be fastest to a resolution? The blame for the situation is purely on Trump. I think most people are aware of this. Since he seems to be rather stubborn and detached from the realities on the ground, is the solution the furloughed staff are going to hope for going to be “convince trump to see reason”, or “just give him the damned wall already?”

Nope you are wrong. The Republicans have blocked all bills that would reopen the government to protect Trump. They are not interested in opening the government.

The Republicans are getting blamed because the wall is a really stupid hill to die on. They are helping Trump. They keep giving out about him and then enabling him. Either they take a stand against him or more people will get voted in who will.

Republicans share the blame here as they are supporting Trump in this issue (let's be fair most of them are trying to play both sides, give out about Trump in the media before falling into line meekly when vote time comes around). Had they put a bit of pressure on Trump to sign we might have gotten somewhere.

mcmoustache

Why can't Trump pursue his wall with an open government anyway? Opening the government doesn't mean that the wall gets shelved. It takes a special kind of thinking to view this as a both-sides issue.

Regardless of that, Trump hasn't even explained what he wants beyond 5 big ones for a wall. How is one supposed to compromise over some pie in the sky with no planned out details?

Back when the wall was rumoured to be 20bn or something, I worked out it was around 6 days worth of the constantly growing US national debt. So 5bn is what, a day or two of the national debt?

This is hurting the Dems big time. Americans are better at big numbers than Irish people who squak at the mention of a million. They're used to their bombers costing billions each, and now they have a shutdown over a paltry five.


The kids in MAGA and the Cohen thing just add to the dumpster fire. A small few, many of whom are in this thread, love this stuff. The vast majority see it as nonsense.

Zubeneschamali

Deleted User wrote: »

This is hurting the Dems big time.

In 2020, I expect to see that video of him telling Nancy and Chuck he owns the shutdown on a loop.

friendlyfun

So it's currently longest shutdown in US history and government workers aren't getting paid. Yet this somewhat the Democrats problem?

friendlyfun

friendlyfun wrote: »

So it's currently longest shutdown in US history and government workers aren't getting paid. Yet this somewhat the Democrats problem?

It's a Democrats and Republicans problem.

Zubeneschamali

Deleted User wrote: »

It's a Democrats and Republicans problem.

Not according to Trump:

Zubeneschamali

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

Not according to Trump:

It's still a Democrats and Republicans problem, since they're failing to negotiate a solution.

I haven't seen the longer video of that. Sounds like a pretty common negotiating tactic much like what the Brits are doing with Brexit. "I will do this. Trust me. I will close the government. I will leave with no deal."

everlast75

[Deleted User] wrote: »

It's still a Democrats and Republicans problem, since they're failing to negotiate a solution.

I haven't seen the longer video of that. Sounds like a pretty common negotiating tactic much like what the Brits are doing with Brexit. "I will do this. Trust me. I will close the government. I will leave with no deal."

There is no crisis at the border.

There is no urgency.

It's a manufactured problem and Trump knows it.

And so if its not urgent, he can get money the way every other president does, by negotiating.

But he doesn't want to do that. He wants a fight. That was *his* choice.

Now he has one, he doesn't know what to do because no one has ever said no to him before.

The Dems are right to hold firm and the right thing for Trump to do is adhere to normal protocol.

Period.

everlast75

everlast75 wrote: »

Period.

Ok. I'll talk to someone else about it.

batgoat

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Ok. I'll talk to someone else about it.

Pandering to his xenophobic agenda at this point is both dangerous and pointless as it won't benefit the dems realistically.

everlast75

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Ok. I'll talk to someone else about it.

Or you could counter with facts...

everlast75

By the way - I didn't see any Republican say that both sides were to blame when it came to Merrick Garland....

oscarBravo

Manic Moran wrote: »

Since he seems to be rather stubborn and detached from the realities on the ground, is the solution the furloughed staff are going to hope for going to be “convince trump to see reason”, or “just give him the damned wall already?”

I think we need to take a moment to reflect on what was just proposed here.

The President of the United States of America is so detached from reality that he's willing to see almost a million people go unpaid rather than back down on his demand for money for a vanity project, so the best course of action is simply to appease the lunatic by giving him what he wants.

What a time to be alive.

I'm genuinely curious: if the roles were reversed, and an obviously insane (and I mean can't-figure-out-how-to-use-an-umbrella insane) Democrat was in the White House, would Republicans be arguing that we should just give him whatever he wants in order to keep the government open?

Wanderer78

oscarBravo wrote:

The President of the United States of America is so detached from reality that he's willing to see almost a million people go unpaid rather than back down on his demand for money for a vanity project, so the best course of action is simply to appease the lunatic by giving him what he wants.

It ll be interesting to see how weird things get during his second term

everlast75

Would Manic or anyone else who appears to support Trump from time to time agree that the shut down should end with a deal that a fact based report be conducted to investigate the most effective way to protect the border occur and that both parties sign up for it?

Christy42

Wanderer78 wrote: »

oscarBravo wrote:

The President of the United States of America is so detached from reality that he's willing to see almost a million people go unpaid rather than back down on his demand for money for a vanity project, so the best course of action is simply to appease the lunatic by giving him what he wants.

It ll be interesting to see how weird things get during his second term

I am curious how far Republicans will go to appease him. Granted I also feel a fair few don't mind his agenda either but are happy enough to claim they are helpless in the face of his stubbornness.

Wanderer78

Christy42 wrote:

I am curious how far Republicans will go to appease him. Granted I also feel a fair few don't mind his agenda either but are happy enough to claim they are helpless in the face of his stubbornness.

I do think it ll be the republicans that ll move this buffon along eventually, it will be interesting to see what that takes though