Donald Trump presidency discussion thread V

Zubeneschamali

Christy42 wrote: »

I am curious how far Republicans will go to appease him.

Well, they didn't fund his idiotic wall in his first 2 years, so not all that far.

Wanderer78

Zubeneschamali wrote:

Well, they didn't fund his idiotic wall in his first 2 years, so not all that far.

He's still there though, and I don't think they're under too much pressure to move him along either

Leroy42

The Dems have put forward a vote to reopen the government to allow further negotiations on the wall.

The GOP have put forward a deal which gives POTUS what he wants and some meaningless concessions to the Dems.

Clearly, the right way forward, since both sides cannot agree, is the Dem proposal as it allows government to reopen but continues the talks.

Lets us see if the GOP support it, as you know, they really care about the workers.

everlast75

aloyisious wrote: »

Is it a bill in this reported agreed plan?

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2019/jan/22/senate-republicans-shutdown-bill-trump-plan

Maybe this might happen in the near future. Under Article 1 Section 7 of the Constitution, the president can veto a bill, but Congress can override the president's veto with a two-thirds majority vote in both chambers if enough pressure builds up on the GOP senators backing Dons stance, they'll stand up against his involving them in blackmail, that they are there to serve the people and not the president.

sorry for the delay.

It was this one.

https://edition.cnn.com/politics/live-news/government-shutdown-month-2019/h_5277dbffda6f235909e14d70d960a269

markodaly

everlast75 wrote: »

I am saying that the differentiation between a racist and a white supremacist to me, rightly or wrongly, is minimal when we are talking about a white person being racist.

Grand, you could have admitted that you were wrong in your language and be open about it but I guess you have already planted your flag and confirmed you allegiance so you won't be doing that anytime soon.

FreudianSlippers

everlast75 wrote: »

Would Manic or anyone else who appears to support Trump from time to time agree that the shut down should end with a deal that a fact based report be conducted to investigate the most effective way to protect the border occur and that both parties sign up for it?

When I'm in LA (about 1/2 the year) I often fly down to San Diego to visit friends - there is no crisis at the border. I'd be interested to know where RIGOLO, Manic, Ads By Google, etc. live that they also have first-hand experience of the border?

FreudianSlippers

FreudianSlippers wrote: »

When I'm in LA (about 1/2 the year) I often fly down to San Diego to visit friends - there is no crisis at the border. I'd be interested to know where RIGOLO, Manic, Ads By Google, etc. live that they also have first-hand experience of the border?

I've never had feelings about the border and think it's unnecessary. I was commenting on the government shutdown.

Leroy42

Ads, so there is no urgent problem that needs addressing, but you hold both the GOP and the DNC equally responsible for the shutdown? Therefore you believe that Trump is lying about it on order to try to get his way on the wall.

One side is trying to save the country from a massive waste of money and the other is cutting off peoples earnings in order not to be seen to give in?

How can you possibly blame anyone other than Trump and the GOP for this?

Leroy42

Leroy42 wrote: »

Ads, so there is no urgent problem that needs addressing, but you hold both the GOP and the DNC equally responsible for the shutdown? Therefore you believe that Trump is lying about it on order to try to get his way on the wall.

One side is trying to save the country from a massive waste of money and the other is cutting off peoples earnings in order not to be seen to give in?

How can you possibly blame anyone other than Trump and the GOP for this?

He has a pretty strong mandate to build it since it was a big part of the campaign. This is purely political at this stage since there is nothing inherently wrong about building a metal fence on one's border, and it's a small waste of money, not a massive one.

As I said before, it equates to a day or two of the national debt. And if the labour and materials are sourced in America, it's not just flushing billions down the drain.

Since I don't consider the cost to be a good reason for the Democrats blocking it, why else are they doing it? I'm genuinely asking btw. I pretty much only look at Brexit these days.

B0jangles

So, in a situation where someone grabs an innocent third party and threatens to do them harm unless all their demands are met, the responsibility is equal between the hostage-taker and those who refuse to give in to the demands of the hostage taker?

The correct and responsible thing to do is to 'just give him what he wants!!'

Really?

Penn

Trump said he'd shut down the Government if he didn't get funding for the wall. The spending bill passed both Houses unanimously. Trump refused to sign it, thereby shutting down the Government. Since then, the Dems have passed numerous bills to try and reopen the Government to allow talks on the wall funding to go ahead without having the government shut down, but Mitch McConnell refuses to allow them to be voted on in the Senate because Trump won't sign them.

How the almighty hell does anyone think this is anyone's fault other than Trump's? He has done exactly what he said he would do. The shutdown is literally his fault.

Both sides are not to blame here. Both sides do not need to compromise. Trump is absolutely to blame and he is absolutely being helped by the Republican Senators (Mitch McConnell in particular) to keep the government shut down. The blame is entirely on Trump, and it's his responsibility to get the government open again.

As absolutely awful as it must be for the federal workers who are not being paid, the Dems cannot and should not acquiesce to Trump's demands. The shutdown is on Trump. He owns it.

everlast75

Deleted User wrote: »

He has a pretty strong mandate to build it since it was a big part of the campaign

It was also a big part of the campaign that Mexico would pay for it...

Zubeneschamali

Deleted User wrote: »

He has a pretty strong mandate

He doesn't have a strong mandate for anything. He squeaked out a win in the electoral college but more people voted for Hillary. His own party didn't back his Wall when they controlled the whole Government.

pixelburp

Deleted User wrote: »

He has a pretty strong mandate to build it since it was a big part of the campaign. This is purely political at this stage since there is nothing inherently wrong about building a metal fence on one's border, and it's a small waste of money, not a massive one.

As I said before, it equates to a day or two of the national debt. And if the labour and materials are sourced in America, it's not just flushing billions down the drain.

Since I don't consider the cost to be a good reason for the Democrats blocking it, why else are they doing it? I'm genuinely asking btw. I pretty much only look at Brexit these days.

An important factor to consider is that this 5 billion figure is completely made up; there are no plans, broad or minute, over what this 'big beautiful wall' is going to consist of. No logistics, no timelines, no goals - nadda. Even the figure fluctuated wildly during Trumps 2016 campaign, betraying the lack of any actual R&D.

This shutdown is literally over a blank cheque for some indeterminate, ambiguous concept. Not a good precedent to set, as it would basically legitimise an 'idea & money first, details later' approach to government.

everlast75

everlast75 wrote: »

It was also a big part of the campaign that Mexico would pay for it...

Yes. That part not happening does not remove the mandate and desire amongst sections of America to have a border fence.

Leroy42

Deleted User wrote: »

He has a pretty strong mandate to build it since it was a big part of the campaign. This is purely political at this stage since there is nothing inherently wrong about building a metal fence on one's border, and it's a small waste of money, not a massive one.

As I said before, it equates to a day or two of the national debt. And if the labour and materials are sourced in America, it's not just flushing billions down the drain.

Since I don't consider the cost to be a good reason for the Democrats blocking it, why else are they doing it? I'm genuinely asking btw. I pretty much only look at Brexit these days.

OK, so 5bn, which to be clear is only the downpayment it will be more than 25bn, is nothing to worry about. So lets increase food stamps. Lets increase in funding to the homeless. What about increasing medicare and medicaid?

Is is always funny that numbers are so easily dismissed when it is something a person wants but become massively important and irresponsible when it doesn't.

But regardless of the cost (which I agree is not key issue) there are not been any evidence that it is even required. And Trump had two fulls years to get it done but didn't, and since he sees the 2020 campaign coming at him with Repeal and Replace dead, the tax cuts having no material effect to the majority and still entangled in the investigation, Trump needs a win. Not some sort of balance of trade type nebulous stuff, he wants a easy to sell, headline grabbing, photo op win that he can point to and say "see I did it".

If that means 800k people have to survive with no pay then so be it, this is about him and him alone.

So why are the Dems against it? It has no evidencial reasons to back it up, it is uncosted, there is no plan, there is no structure behind it. There is, of course, the very poliitics that McConnell introduced, refusing simply because its not their idea. So like Merrick Garland, the Dems are refusing because that is their job.

But, as I posted earlier, the Dems have put forward many motions to reopen government, and will have another vote on Thursday based on reopening government as is and negotiating the wall in the background. That seems totally sensible to me, take the 800k out of the politics and let the politics fight amongst themselves in the background.


I fully expect Trump to support this as otherwise it would appear that all that matters is the wall!

batgoat

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Yes. That part not happening does not remove the mandate and desire amongst sections of America to have a border fence.

That doesn't establish a mandate for the US to pay for it. Failure to get Mexico to pay for it is failure to fulfil his mandate, not to take it from the US budget.

aloyisious

I'm not sure of the veracity of the contents of the item in the link but have to comment that to include the Dept of Homeland Security in the shutdown is an act of insanity itself. DHS has the Secret Service, the Border Patrol, the TSA, the Coast Guard, ICE and USCIS and not lastly FEMA under its mantle.

I can see that it's a small number of the overall staff who are amongst the unpaid federal employees but who in his right mind shuts down the Govt and causes one's Secret Service agency members to be affected given how it provides the close-cover security detail for one's-self and one's family?

For info, when the link below opens, a smaller page will open on the main page. Go to the lower right side of this small page and click the "close me" option for it to vanish off the main page.

http://www.mondaq.com/unitedstates/x/773330/Government+Contracts+Procurement+PPP/The+Impact+Of+The+Partial+Government+Shutdown+On+The+Department+Of+Homeland+Security+DHS

everlast75

I wonder if Trump will have the cajones to veto the Dem Bill if it passes the Senate....

Leroy42

Deleted User wrote: »

Yes. That part not happening does not remove the mandate and desire amongst sections of America to have a border fence.

So only part of what he said is the mandate, is that right? So when people heard that he would build the wall and Mexico would pay, what people accepted was that he would build the wall but the Mexico paying for it was just a joke?

He said Mexico would pay for it to avoid having to explain how much it would cost and how he would fund it. Far easier to say someone else will pick up the tab and thus avoid the quetions.

To now claim that Mexico playing for it was irrelevant is highly disingenuous.

Leroy42

Leroy42 wrote: »

So only part of what he said is the mandate, is that right? So when people heard that he would build the wall and Mexico would pay, what people accepted was that he would build the wall but the Mexico paying for it was just a joke?

He said Mexico would pay for it to avoid having to explain how much it would cost and how he would fund it. Far easier to say someone else will pick up the tab and thus avoid the quetions.

To now claim that Mexico playing for it was irrelevant is highly disingenuous.

I didn't claim it was irrelevant. It's just a part of it that can't be achieve and it would be disingenuous to claim that the people who voted for it don't want it anymore because of that.

Pelvis

pixelburp wrote: »

An important factor to consider is that this 5 billion figure is completely made up; there are no plans, broad or minute, over what this 'big beautiful wall' is going to consist of. No logistics, no timelines, no goals - nadda. Even the figure fluctuated wildly during Trumps 2016 campaign, betraying the lack of any actual R&D.

This shutdown is literally over a blank cheque for some indeterminate, ambiguous concept. Not a good precedent to set, as it would basically legitimise an 'idea & money first, details later' approach to government.

Plus this 5b is only for 215 miles of wall. The US/Mex board is 2k miles long. So really you're talking closer to 50b, not including labour, land aquisition, maintenance, and the **** ton of legal costs it's going to take for yeas to come, because you're going to get people disputing having their land taken from them.

It's a monumentally stupid idea.

FreudianSlippers

Deleted User wrote: »

I've never had feelings about the border and think it's unnecessary. I was commenting on the government shutdown.

They're inherently linked.

FreudianSlippers

Deleted User wrote: »

Yes. That part not happening does not remove the mandate and desire amongst sections of America to have a border fence.

It absolutely does though, how could it not?

FreudianSlippers

FreudianSlippers wrote: »

They're inherently linked.

Yeah, but not in a way that logically dictates that I must support a wall because I think both parties are at fault for the shutdown?

FreudianSlippers

FreudianSlippers wrote: »

It absolutely does though, how could it not?

Out of the Americans who voted for Trump because of the wall, what percentage do you think don't want it now because the US has to be pay for it. My gut feeling would be that hardly any have changed their minds and still want it.

FreudianSlippers

Deleted User wrote: »

Yeah, but not in a way that logically dictates that I must support a wall because I think both parties are at fault for the shutdown?

You're effectively saying they should just build the wall for no reason to end the shutdown. Therefore you support building a wall.

FreudianSlippers

Deleted User wrote: »

Out of the Americans who voted for Trump because of the wall, what percentage do you think don't want it now because the US has to be pay for it. My gut feeling would be that hardly any have changed their minds and still want it.

Your gut feeling is irrelevant. You can't say "he has a mandate because he ran on building a wall that Mexico would pay for" on one hand and then completely ignore half of the promise. You have no data which supports your view unfortunately and polling data would indicate that the majority of Americans (and growing) blame Trump for the shutdown. Sure - he said it himself!

FreudianSlippers

FreudianSlippers wrote: »

You're effectively saying they should just build the wall for no reason to end the shutdown. Therefore you support building a wall.

Technically correct but I don't want the wall. The whole thing would be better if none of this exists.

I'm not a fan of your logical processes to be honest. If you really think I want a wall because of Mexicans because of how I've posted here, you're missing the point.

FreudianSlippers

I'm not too worried that you're not a fan of my logical processes, or whether you want a wall or not (which you clearly do)... I'm more concerned about your absolute lack of forethought about what capitulating to Trump would do.