Should people in emergency accommodation be made pay for their stay?

Sleeper12

Gatling wrote: »

Hotels are not homes they don't fall under rental laws but I get the feeling that was already known

Ah but the government are housing them in hotels. There is a huge difference. They aren't in hotels on holiday or a business trip. They aren't even allowed to use the hotel facilities in most cases.



The government can't charge them rent in homes without kitchens. Any landlord knows that. They can't charge them rent if they get kicked out at 8am everyday. Any landlord will tell you that.


The government can't give them a lease as the hotel can & does kick them out at peek times.

Sleeper12

Gatling wrote: »

What's the current bill for free hotels and b&bs €300,000,000, + and climbing per year ,

Where does it stop 4 years a billion euro bill and nothing payed back In return

Here's what you need to do, tell all of this to FG. Ask them why they allowed this to happen over the last 6 or 7 years. Ask them why did they sit on their bum till the whole Apollo House thing forced them to sit up & look at it. peaking of Apollo House, FG promised no one would have to stay in hotels or hostels from July 2017. They lied! If they kept their promise we wouldn't even have this thread

Wheeliebin30

The government the government the government!!!


When will people realise the government are not here to provide solutions to all of life’s problems!!!

Gatling

Sleeper12 wrote: »

Ah but the government are housing them in hotels. There is a huge difference. They aren't in hotels on holiday or a business trip. They aren't even allowed to use the hotel facilities in most cases.



The government can't charge them rent in homes without kitchens. Any landlord knows that. They can't charge them rent if they get kicked out at 8am everyday. Any landlord will tell you that.


The government can't give them a lease as the hotel can & does kick them out at peek times.

The government and us the tax payers are paying for the stays in hotels , they are not housed they don't have rental agreements , stop trying to argue rental agreements and standards ,

If they are not happy why not self accommodate there is properties out there ,,but when everything is provided free why would you bother

Wheeliebin30

Sleeper12 wrote: »

Here's what you need to do, tell all of this to FG. Ask them why they allowed this to happen over the last 6 or 7 years. Ask them why did they sit on their bum till the whole Apollo House thing forced them to sit up & look at it. peaking of Apollo House, FG promised no one would have to stay in hotels or hostels from July 2017. They lied! If they kept their promise we wouldn't even have this thread

It’s all FGs fault everything.

Nothing to do with personal responsibility or people gaming the system.

Everything is the governments fault, everything!!

noodler

Sleeper12 wrote: »

Here's what you need to do, tell all of this to FG. Ask them why they allowed this to happen over the last 6 or 7 years. Ask them why did they sit on their bum till the whole Apollo House thing forced them to sit up & look at it. peaking of Apollo House, FG promised no one would have to stay in hotels or hostels from July 2017. They lied! If they kept their promise we wouldn't even have this thread

Stop blaming the government for everything and address the points please.

Sleeper12

Wheeliebin30 wrote:

It’s all FGs fault everything.

Well let's forget that they lied about no one having to stay in hotels and hostels from almost 18 months back. Let's take your view that homeless people should pay for emergency accommodation. What did your local FG TD or councillor have to say about this? Why aren't they charging rent? It's all well and good coming on here & huffing and puffing but who do you suppose is to blame for no rent being charged? So this isn't FGs fault either??? Who is in government? Who has biggest party? So all the good things are down to FG & all the bad things have nothing to do with FG?

Jees I'd love to live in that make believe utopia for a few days

Gatling wrote:

The government and us the tax payers are paying for the stays in hotels , they are not housed they don't have rental agreements , stop trying to argue rental agreements and standards ,

Well it seems that the government agrees with me that they cannot charge rent for accommodation without cooking facilities. If they can charge rent then why aren't they? Have you written to your local council or councillors about this?
As other posters have said, they were charged rent in emergency accommodation or charged rent when working for SVDP where there was cooking facilities. They can't change rent where they is no cooking facilities, you have to move weekly or byweekly or you get kicked out for 12 hours a day 7 days a week.

Sleeper12

Who ignored the homeless crisis since 2012? If there was someone else that I could blame I would. Labour Party paid the price there's no point pointing the finger at them. The only party in power since 2012 is FG.

If you have a problem with homeless people not paying for emergency accommodation then I suggest getting onto your nearest FG TD or councilor. They can bring change. I can't bring in rent & I doubt anyone here can. Only the people in power can bring in these changes though I do believe that they will have to change the law as these places do not have kitchens and its illegal to rent accommodation without cooking facilities.

Wheeliebin30

Sleeper12 wrote: »

Who ignored the homeless crisis since 2012? If there was someone else that I could blame I would. Labour Party paid the price there's no point pointing the finger at them. The only party in power since 2012

There is no homeless crisis.

A tiny tiny tiny percentage of people are looking for a forever home and have found an easy way to get it.

It’s an entitlement crisis.

Sleeper12

Wheeliebin30 wrote:

There is no homeless crisis.

What a utopia it must be like in your head.

There is another poster here that has worked for SVDP. I have done work with them & still do from time to time. In the world I live in (I call it the real world) there is a homeless crisis. Many posters have been posting about the homeless crisis and the looming housing shortage since 2012. Both of these things are very real. Obviously the homeless crisis is directly linked to the housing crisis.

The government did nothing to encourage building. Instead they gave home improvement grants. Home improvement grants encourage people to extend their homes instead of moving. We needed them to move, to encourage the building of new homes. They gave a first time buyers grant that pushed the prices up higher. The only people to benefit from FG with new builds were one off builds on a plot of land.

TCM

splashuum wrote:

Niall Boylan poised this question today regarding people in emergency accommodation. Should they be made contribute a reasonable sum towards their stay?

Boylan is a poobag.

eviltwin

emergency accommodation isn't the worst. Where I work is actually quite nice, there are no requirements to be out during the day, curfew is midnight but that's just for access, let someone know you will be out later and it's OK. Food isn't provided but there are kitchens and all equipment. There are also the services of staff, we assist with not just housing but education, career preparation, parenting etc. We regularly run courses in everything from baby yoga to interview skills.

Charging rent may seem cruel but it's a low rent and for some it's a valuable tool in managing their money. If they can't manage to pay us how will it work in the real world.

Most of the residents work, some study, very few do nothing unless they have babies. Most are desperate to get out but don't have the same things going for them as other potential renters and when landlords find out they live in a hub then it's usually game over. The image is they are lazy and unreliable.

Our residents are there due to domestic violence, being kicked out by parents, landlords selling up etc.

Sleeper12

eviltwin wrote:

Charging rent may seem cruel but it's a low rent and for some it's a valuable tool in managing their money. If they can't manage to pay us how will it work in the real world.

People are refusing to read your posts. They rather believe some idiot looking to get newspaper headlines than someone like yourself that states clearly that the homeless in your accommodation pay rent.

Gatling

Sleeper12 wrote: »

People are refusing to read your posts. They rather believe some idiot looking to get newspaper headlines than someone like yourself that states clearly that the homeless in your accommodation pay rent.

There you go again ,

The majority of people living In hotels and b&bs make Zero financial contribution to their stay.

Maybe the eviltwin should explain are they working in a hostel or hub ,

It's certainly not a hotel or b&b by the sound's of it ,

Sleeper12

Gatling wrote:

The majority of people living In hotels and b&bs make Zero financial contribution to their stay.

I've already explained this. It's illegal to rent without cooking facilities. People staying in hotels & B&Bs aren't guests. In fact they have no contract with the hotel at all. They state agencies block book the rooms & house these people there.

If you want to get the law changed & have these people pay rent then you need to get in touch with FG councils and TDs to get them to change the law. There's not much point moaning here as I don't believe any poster here has the power to charge homeless people rent.

There's another thing happening under FGs watch. Freeloading honeless people not being charged rent. The more I think about the more I think you are right. FG have a lot to answer to alright

Sleeper12

Gatling wrote:

The majority of people living In hotels and b&bs make Zero financial contribution to their stay.

Can you post a link to back up your claim that the majority aren't paying rent? Or is this just guesswork /wishful thinking on your part?

Wheeliebin30

Sleeper12 wrote: »

I've already explained this. It's illegal to rent without cooking facilities. People staying in hotels & B&Bs aren't guests. In fact they have no contract with the hotel at all. They state agencies block book the rooms & house these people there.

If you want to get the law changed & have these people pay rent then you need to get in touch with FG councils and TDs to get them to change the law. There's not much point moaning here as I don't believe any poster here has the power to charge homeless people rent.

There's another thing happening under FGs watch. Freeloading honeless people not being charged rent. The more I think about the more I think you are right. FG have a lot to answer to alright

DCC look after these services who are majority Sinn Fein.

FG can’t look after everything hence their being councils.

Sometimes it’s like talking to 6 year olds around here.

eviltwin

Gatling wrote: »

There you go again ,

The majority of people living In hotels and b&bs make Zero financial contribution to their stay.

Maybe the eviltwin should explain are they working in a hostel or hub ,

It's certainly not a hotel or b&b by the sound's of it ,

I work in a hub. Just to clarify, we don't charge rent it's DCC who charge it and set the rate. We just collect it. DCC also house people in hostels and hotels so they may also collect a rent from those residents.

Wheeliebin30

eviltwin wrote: »

I work in a hub. Just to clarify, we don't charge rent it's DCC who charge it and set the rate. We just collect it. DCC also house people in hostels and hotels so they may also collect a rent from those residents.

Be honest you have no idea of the percentage who actually pay it?

eviltwin

Wheeliebin30 wrote: »

Be honest you have no idea of the percentage who actually pay it?

No because it's only some of the users I work directly with. I'm responsible for chasing my clients for arrears and it's only a small amount who don't pay. We take the money by direct debit. If someone doesn't clear their arrears that stays with them because the money is owed to DCC. They can't be offered a council property until they are cleared and any reference I give has to be honest about their reliability in paying so it's in their interest to pay on time. Most of my residents are working so it's not an issue to them paying on time.

Sleeper12

Wheeliebin30 wrote:

FG can’t look after everything hence their being councils.

The government has a minister whose responsibility is housing. He sets out the guidelines or not in his case.

Only FG can change the law to allow rentals without cooking facilities. Local councils don't have that power.

You always try to pass the buck. It can never be FGs fault for anything. I'm assuming by your deflecting that you have not brought these issues up with FG Td or councilors.

Gatling

eviltwin wrote: »

I work in a hub. Just to clarify, we don't charge rent it's DCC who charge it and set the rate. We just collect it. DCC also house people in hostels and hotels so they may also collect a rent from those residents.

Very much appreciated for the information ,

I said already said people in hubs pay where as in hotels and b&bs they don't which another poster is trying to suggest every one is paying based off your post ,

Is it around 40 pw contribution

Sleeper12

Wheeliebin30 wrote:

Be honest you have no idea of the percentage who actually pay it?

You have no idea of the percentage that don't pay for emergency accommodation. You are just guessing yourself in fairness

Sleeper12

Gatling wrote:

I said already said people in hubs pay where as in hotels and b&bs they don't which another poster is trying to suggest every one is paying based off your post ,

Not true. There is another poster who was in emergency accommodation and he paid. There is a patten here. People on the front line reporting payment & people guessing & assuming saying otherwise without any facts or figures to back it up. The same people seem to have no interest in telling our government or minister for housing that they should change the law and allow collection of rent.

No point giving out here saying its not right. We can't change anything. Tell FG. The minister is FG

Gatling

Sleeper12 wrote: »

Well it seems that the government agrees with me that they cannot charge rent for accommodation without cooking facilities,

They can't change rent where they is no cooking facilities, you have to move weekly or byweekly or you get kicked out for 12 hours a day 7 days a week.

Your again misrepresentations hotels charge a fee they are not private rentals show us where a hotel is considered under private rentals regulations ,

It actually sounds like your making it up as you go along,

The only reason people are not being asked to contribute to the long term stays in hotels is likely more to do with the government being afraid of a moral outrage that people are being asked to contribute to their hotel rooms while turning down multiple offers of social housing.

It's absolutely nothing to do with rental regulations and you know this

eviltwin

You can't turn down multiple offers of council housing if you are in emergency accommodation, your placement will be cancelled.

Sleeper12

Gatling wrote:

Your again misrepresentations hotels charge a fee they are not private rentals show us where a hotel is considered under private rentals regulations ,

You are missing a very important point. The hotels do not rent the rooms to the homeless. The state rent the rooms. The homeless people staying there stay with totally different rules to the guests. The homeless people have no contract with the hotel. They aren't their landlords. The state is the landlord. The homeless people are housed there by the state. If the state can change rent then FG need a kick in the arse. Why isn't the housing minister doing something about this?

Gatling

eviltwin wrote: »

You can't turn down multiple offers of council housing if you are in emergency accommodation, your placement will be cancelled.

Actually it's well documented it's happening on the basis of hundreds of offers likely thousands of housing offers over the last few years are getting turned down ,
It's likely why they want everyone moved to hubs so they have actual some control ,

I happen to work in education and I regularly talk to parents have turned down offers to the point they were taken off the housing list still in a hotel and returned to the list by local councillor's

Gatling

Sleeper12 wrote: »

You are missing a very important point. The hotels do not rent the rooms to the homeless

Yes , yes they do and the tax payer me you and another + others foot the bill ,

The government is not their landlord neither is the hotel it's a simple business agreement and nothing more ,
The government pays the hotels ,we pay the government our taxes ,the people living in hotels and b&bs pay nothing .

I'm not talking hubs or St vincent.de Paul services .

eviltwin

Gatling wrote: »

Actually it's well documented it's happening on the basis of hundreds of offers likely thousands of housing offers over the last few years are getting turned down ,
It's likely why they want everyone moved to hubs so they have actual some control ,

I happen to work in education and I regularly talk to parents have turned down offers to the point they were taken off the housing list still in a hotel and returned to the list by local councillor's

Oh I know it happens it just can't happen in a hub without good reason otherwise you get put back into a hotel or hostel.

Gatling

eviltwin wrote: »

Oh I know it happens it just can't happen in a hub without good reason otherwise you get put back into a hotel or hostel.

That's why I like the idea of hubs there is some degree of control ,and less messing ,,


But hypothetical situation you move from hotel to a Hub and either turn down housing without good reason or say cause trouble you then get sent back to a hotel or b&b which likely would be paid for it's almost win/win for someone if inclined to take advantage .

I like the model they use in London turn down housing without good reason including housing sourced outside London by the local authorities your then discharged from their duty of care you then have to source and pay for your own accommodation

eviltwin

Gatling wrote: »

That's why I like the idea of hubs there is some degree of control ,and less messing ,,


But hypothetical situation you move from hotel to a Hub and either turn down housing without good reason or say cause trouble you then get sent back to a hotel or b&b which likely would be paid for it's almost win/win for someone if inclined to take advantage .

I like the model they use in London turn down housing without good reason including housing sourced outside London by the local authorities your then discharged from their duty of care you then have to source and pay for your own accommodation

Hubs are more than just accommodation, you have a case worker who helps you develop in a way that makes you more attractive to a potential landlord. People in hotels don't have that. I'd like to see someone moved out of a hub and back into a hotel if it means someone who actually wants that help gets a place.

Sleeper12

Gatling wrote:

I'm not talking hubs or St vincent.de Paul services .

Neither am I

Gatling wrote:

Yes , yes they do and the tax payer me you and another + others foot the bill ,

Only the government can change this.

Gatling wrote:

The government is not their landlord neither is the hotel it's a simple business agreement and nothing more , The government pays the hotels ,we pay the government our taxes ,the people living in hotels and b&bs pay nothing .

It's a business agreement with the state & the hotel. The homeless people aren't hotel guests. They have different rules and regulations and can't avail of the facilities like a regular guest. The homeless people have an agreement with the state & not the hotel. The government rent the rooms & house the homeless there. It is housing. It becomes housing in the same way that privately owned property rented through HAP becomes social housing. The state are the landlord or at least they become the landlord if they charge rent. The government know this & it does not matter how many people jump up & down here the government won't charge rent because they become landlords and it leaves them wide open to having to follow laws and legislation.

If you believe they can charge rent please explain why the government isn't charging rent? What reason do you think is stopping them? You know there has to be a reason

Gatling

Sleeper12 wrote: »

If you believe they can charge rent please explain why the government isn't charging rent? What reason do you think is stopping them? You know there has to be a reason

I already said it's down to fear moral outrage , but yet you pay to stay in a hub ,

Again it's absolutely nothing to do with rental standards ,or lease agreements ,

If the government said tomorrow that from next week people will have to pay 60% of their income to cover the cost of a long term hotel stay you will see people suddenly not wanting to live in a hotel where they actually have to contribute.

eviltwin

Gatling wrote: »

I already said it's down to fear moral outrage , but yet you pay to stay in a hub ,

Again it's absolutely nothing to do with rental standards ,or lease agreements ,

If the government said tomorrow that from next week people will have to pay 60% of their income to cover the cost of a long term hotel stay you will see people suddenly not wanting to live in a hotel where they actually have to contribute.

But then where do they go? No government is going to put families with children out on the streets.

Sleeper12

Gatling wrote:

I already said it's down to fear moral outrage , but yet you pay to stay in a hub ,

They wasted billions on Irish water. They lied about no homeless people ever needing to stay in a hostel or hotel. They lied about no woman would have to go to court. FG have no shame a little moral outrage wouldn't bother them. Regardless you do know that it's the government's fault that these people don't pay rent? The outrage on the thread suggests that it's the homeless people at fault that the government won't charge them rent. You can see how ridiculous this is right?

Wheeliebin30

So a councilor has come out and said people aren’t paying anything in hotels and and are deliberately going homeless to get a house.

How refreshing.

Sleeper12

Sleeper12 wrote: »

With children? Getting them ready for school, travelling on two buses to get them to school and then after school stook in a room with nowhere to play?

Being a guest in a hotel & actually living in one are two totally different things

No, to end up in that situation quite a few things have to happen. I have either been lucky or my path through life has enabled me not to be in that situation.

Wheeliebin30

Wheeliebin30 wrote: »

So a councilor has come out and said people aren’t paying anything in hotels and and are deliberately going homeless to get a house.

How refreshing.

It's a significant issue, many of them will refuse rented accomodation from private landlords too as it doesn't suit them for whatever reason.

Take away all those wasters and the crisis might be manageable.

Gimme A Pound

riclad wrote: »

Did you ever stay in emergency accomodation ?
People in hotels have to back in every night by a certain time,
11pm approx, you have a tv , one kettle to make tea.
no cooking facilty,s .
i don,t think they should pay anything.
Its not very luxurious accomodation .

Not anything?

So there is the wage for housekeeping staff, the electricity, heating, rates, commercial water... how can it be free?

Sleeper12

Augeo wrote:

No, to end up in that situation quite a few things have to happen. I have either been lucky or my path through life has enabled me not to be in that situation.

It's luck one way or another. Good or bad.
The battered wives in sheltered accommodation married the man of their dreams. It's not their fault when years later he turned violent.

The ex homeowners in sheltered or emergency accommodation did nothing wrong when they lost their homes to the bank. They were law abiding tax paying citizens.

Pure luck one way or another

Sleeper12

Sleeper12 wrote: »

........

Pure luck one way or another

Yeah.......... no one who made a career out of being on the dole has ended up in emergency accommodation as they fancy a council property and not HAP etc etc.

Old diesel

Sleeper12 wrote: »

Neither am I



Only the government can change this.



It's a business agreement with the state & the hotel. The homeless people aren't hotel guests. They have different rules and regulations and can't avail of the facilities like a regular guest. The homeless people have an agreement with the state & not the hotel. The government rent the rooms & house the homeless there. It is housing. It becomes housing in the same way that privately owned property rented through HAP becomes social housing. The state are the landlord or at least they become the landlord if they charge rent. The government know this & it does not matter how many people jump up & down here the government won't charge rent because they become landlords and it leaves them wide open to having to follow laws and legislation.

If you believe they can charge rent please explain why the government isn't charging rent? What reason do you think is stopping them? You know there has to be a reason

A very interesting argument you make because for me if your argument is correct - so much starts to make sense.

If a homeless family was booked in as a normal guest then you would expect......

1) full access to all hotel facilities including hotel pool if there is one.

2) theres a "rugby match on in 6 weeks time" - in a normal guest situation the homeless family gets priority as a guest for booking in over someone who doesn't even know they are going to the match yet.

3) in a normal guest situation you can book the room not only on a B & B basis but including dinner too. You often see the dinner bit presented on a 2 night stay with one night dinner etc. Point is - dinner CAN be included in the guest rate. Rather then having to go out for take aways. Hotels often offer "cheaper" bar food options which when done well are superior to take aways.

4) if you are a proper guest booked in for more then one night - you have full access to your room and all facilities from 3 pm* on first day of arrival to 12 pm on your day of departure.

If they are literally "renting a room" on a week to week basis then you can suddenly why terms are different for homeless people.

The council could literally be renting the use of one room.

I would at the very least expect that on those terms the room is been offered at below the normal guest rates. But I'm sure someone has found a way to pay MORE for less.

*or immediately if booking later the day

Sleeper12

Augeo wrote:

Yeah.......... no one who made a career out of being on the dole has ended up in emergency accommodation as they fancy a council property and not HAP etc etc.

There is no doubt that there are chancers and scam artists. SVP believe 10 percent of people availing of their services are not genuine. I have met scammers myself

It is very narrow minded to make out that all are scamming. By doing this you belittle the 90 percent of genuine cases. It stigmatises the whole process. I understand that some posters seem to be fully paid up members of FG. The same posters would rather imply that all or most aren't genuine rather than admit that their party created the homeless & housing crisis by ignoring the warnings for so long.

The people on the ground & indeed the government itself can see that there is a crisis & that the vast majority are genuine cases

Sleeper12

Sleeper12 wrote: »

............. I understand that some posters seem to be fully paid up members of FG. The same posters would rather imply that all or most aren't genuine rather than admit that their party created the homeless & housing crisis by ignoring the warnings for so long.
.............

lol, that's a fair speel of horsesh1t to be fair.
You must be a lefty anyway.

eviltwin

Sleeper12 wrote: »

There is no doubt that there are chancers and scam artists. SVP believe 10 percent of people availing of their services are not genuine. I have met scammers myself

It is very narrow minded to make out that all are scamming. By doing this you belittle the 90 percent of genuine cases. It stigmatises the whole process. I understand that some posters seem to be fully paid up members of FG. The same posters would rather imply that all or most aren't genuine rather than admit that their party created the homeless & housing crisis by ignoring the warnings for so long.

The people on the ground & indeed the government itself can see that there is a crisis & that the vast majority are genuine cases

I think it's easy to spot those who are there by bad luck Vs those there by choice. The problem is some of those there by choice would never get a house in the rental market, no one on their right mind would let them near their property. They often have anti social behavior issues, addiction etc. I don't know what people expect, they want them housed but I guarantee they wouldn't offer their property.

Sleeper12

eviltwin wrote: »

I think it's easy to spot those who are there by bad luck Vs those there by choice. The problem is some of those there by choice would never get a house in the rental market, no one on their right mind would let them near their property. They often have anti social behavior issues, addiction etc. I don't know what people expect, they want them housed but I guarantee they wouldn't offer their property.

The important thing to remember is that there are both kinds & the genuine cases far outweigh the chancers

Sleeper12

Sleeper12 wrote: »

The important thing to remember is that there are both kinds & the genuine cases far outweigh the chancers

Do you really think that?

A minority of homeless folk are as you describe below......

Sleeper12 wrote: »

........
The battered wives in sheltered accommodation...........

The ex homeowners in sheltered or emergency accommodation .......

I was in a hotel for a party last Christmas and it was obvious that loads of rooms there were emergency accommodation.

What struck me was the sheer number of kids each couple seemed to have, well above the 2.4 average or whatever it is.

A significant amount of the homeless folk are gaming the system to get a council property that suits them.......they are sprogged up to facilitate this too.

YFlyer

riclad wrote: »

Did you ever stay in emergency accomodation ?
People in hotels have to back in every night by a certain time,
11pm approx, you have a tv , one kettle to make tea.
no cooking facilty,s .
i don,t think they should pay anything.
Its not very luxurious accomodation .

I'll take it.

_Brian

Nothing should be completely free.
They should contribute something towards the cost.

While there may be an element of the state failing them the majority of the failing is to be shared among themselves, parents, partners. At some stage along the line ****ty decisions lead to where they are now.

For the rest of us we and our parents made huge efforts and sacrifices to secure our lifestyle. My parents went without and worked hard so we could go to college, I worked from age 15. When I got married I didn’t go on to have a string of kids with no plan or ability to provide for them.

People love to blame the state but it’s more tue truth that they should be looking at those they have surrounded themselves with for the causes of their problems.

Personal responsibility is something they don’t want to face.

All those teachers who told them if they didn’t work hard they would go nowhere - they were dead right !