Retailer demanded Visa Debit card !!

D3V!L

I went into a local convenience store on a well known large round-about in Dublin recently. Its not a shop I would be in regularly but happened to be in the bank next door.

I needed a drink so bought a soft drink and asked could I pay with my card. The shop keeper plonks the card machine on the counter as you normally would and then demanded my card to tap it !!

I don't use the tap facility because it takes forever for transactions to go through. I told him I don't use it and then told me he wants my card to put it into the machine. I'm a grown man and fairly dexterous so can manage the basics like using a credit card machine and tying my laces. :rolleyes:

He got quite aggravated by me not just handing over my debit card so I told him to keep his drink and i'll take my business elsewhere. When I got back into the car shocked I told my wife and she said months ago she had the same problem with him.

Are there any consumer or banking regulations regarding the use of card machines and who would I report this to ??

troyzer

Costcutter in Walkinstown, got it.

You seem a bit fragile. I don't think I've ever heard someone say that tapping the card is slower than chip and PIN. It just isn't.

It's also more secure and the bank charges the merchant less.

In what way did he get aggravated by you not handing over the card? If the card reader was in front of you, why didn't you just put the card in?

D3V!L

troyzer wrote: »

Costcutter in Walkinstown, got it.

You seem a bit fragile. I don't think I've ever heard someone say that tapping the card is slower than chip and PIN. It just isn't.

It's also more secure and the bank charges the merchant less.

In what way did he get aggravated by you not handing over the card? If the card reader was in front of you, why didn't you just put the card in?

I'm far from fragile, I assure you. Debiting does take longer , try it yourself rather than relying on hearsay.

He wouldn't let me put the card in and demanded the card to do it himself. Sorry I wasn't more specific.

troyzer

D3V!L wrote: »

I'm far from fragile thanks. It does take longer , try it yourself rather than relying on hearsay.

He wouldn't let me put the card in and demanded the card to do it himself. Sorry I wasn't more specific.

It doesn't take longer. The acquisition time is identical. It's the same process.

The acquisition works by sending a signal to the merchant or acquiring bank (shop's bank) and asking them to make a debit. The merchant bank then contacts the card issuer (VISA or Mastercard) to confirm if the card is valid. The card issuer then passes on the authorisation request to the issuing bank (your bank) who then confirm that you have sufficient balance, they then send the payment to the merchant bank. This takes about 2-3 seconds and it's the exact same process whether or not you tap or use chip and PIN.

However, entering your card, typing your PIN and then it being accepted is an additional process on top of acquisition. Which is why chip and PIN is slower. It just is. It's a fact.

This guy sounds like an arsehole. But he didn't do anything illegal and you're a bit precious if you were "shocked".

D3V!L

troyzer wrote: »

I

The acquisition works by sending a signal to the merchant or acquiring bank (shop's bank) and asking them to make a debit. The merchant bank then contacts the card issuer (VISA or Mastercard) to confirm if the card is valid. The card issuer then passes on the authorisation request to the issuing bank (your bank) who then confirm that you have sufficient balance, they then send the payment to the merchant bank. This takes about 2-3 seconds and it's the exact same process whether or not you tap or use chip and PIN.

I am not talking about the duration of the transaction with the retailer. I'm talking about the amount of time it takes for the money to be debited from my account.

Completely non consequential in this case.

troyzer

troyzer wrote: »

Costcutter in Walkinstown...

My money was on Spar in Artane:o

troyzer

D3V!L wrote: »

I am not talking about the duration of the transaction with the retailer. I'm talking about the amount of time it takes for the money to be debited from my account.

Completely non consequential in this case.

Wrong.

The reason why some transactions take longer to appear is because of the way merchant banks batch payments. Larger transactions are typically batched on their own straight away, smaller ones over an entire business day are usually batched together and submitted to the issuing bank at midnight that day. Which, especially if it's the weekend, can lead to a perceived funding delay.

The important thing here is that smaller transactions are delayed, not contactless ones. However, because contactless payments are limited to €30, they are by default considered smaller transactions and delayed.

Meaning the same thing would have happened whether or not you used contactless. Chip and PIN doesn't speed it up.

This isn't universal in every store either, it depends on the card machine. It doesn't however, depend on contactless vs chip and PIN.

c6ysaphjvqw41k

I've found that contactless does take longer to come out of my bank. I've had a few transactions for Penneys take 5+ days to even appear as a pending or otherwise transaction on my bank when using contactless. If I use my pin it normally appears instantly.
Edit: I'm not saying it is or isnt because of contactless, but that was just my experience.

D3V!L

troyzer wrote: »

Wrong.

The reason why some transactions take longer to appear is because of the way merchant banks batch payments. Larger transactions are typically batched on their own straight away, smaller ones over an entire business day are usually batched together and submitted to the issuing bank at midnight that day. Which, especially if it's the weekend, can lead to a perceived funding delay.

The important thing here is that smaller transactions are delayed, not contactless ones. However, because contactless payments are limited to €30, they are by default considered smaller transactions and delayed.

Meaning the same thing would have happened whether or not you used contactless. Chip and PIN doesn't speed it up.

This isn't universal in every store either, it depends on the card machine. It doesn't however, depend on contactless vs chip and PIN.

Regardless of weather I'm wrong or right thats my choice as a consumer.

troyzer

Deleted User wrote: »

My money was on Spar in Artane:o

Yeah but the roundabout in Artane isn't particularly famous, sure it's a bog standard four exit roundabout. The one in Walkinstown is a Goliath with six exits.

MarkR

Perhaps he was concerned about his machine. Particularly if they are wireless. Could be robbed, or perhaps interfered with?

troyzer

D3V!L wrote: »

Regardless of weather I'm wrong or right thats my choice as a consumer.

You're right. It's absolutely your right as a consumer to be pointlessly difficult.

Just don't be "shocked" when the shop owner gets annoyed. Especially when it costs him more money to faciliate your pointless request.

EdgeCase

They appear immediately on both my AIB and N26 accounts.

In fact with the N26 account you will even get a push alert message on your phone, usually within about 1 to 2 seconds of tapping the card.

There shouldn't be any difference in posting time as the process is essentially identical whether you use contactless or chip and pin.

sentient_6

Handing over the card is the same as handing over your wallet and saying take it out there yourself.

LeakingLava

I'm pretty sure that the owner of the card is the only person who should be using the card(I read it somewhere, I think my bank terms and conditions?). I am the same regarding this. I have confirmed for myself that contactless transactions don't appear as anything on my bank account until after at least 3 days and immediately charges me. For chip and PIN, I am immediately deducted the amount from the 'available' balance despite the charge still happening a few days later. I have confirmed that this is due to contactless vs chip and PIN because I did the exact same transaction, same shop, same item, same price, one day difference. I have tried it a few times. All with the same result.

Anyway, I wouldn't trust a stranger to hold my card for me when I am more than capable of putting it into a card machine myself.

Also, isn't the point of those wireless card transmitter things to abide by the rule of banks that the owner is the only person to use their card? Same with those keypads in banks/shops that allows you to put your card in and just enter the PIN but is still controlled by the person at the till, I believe.

D3V!L

Something I would buy regularly from Dunnes, every second week for €4.99 took 5 days to come out of my account recently when I used the tap function. The previous time it took 2 days.

If a retailer is demanding my card and not letting me near the machine how do I know he's not typing €30 in on the machine only for me to find out 1 or 2 days later when I'm no where near the area.

troyzer

LeakingLava wrote: »

I'm pretty sure that the owner of the card is the only person who should be using the card(I read it somewhere, I think my bank terms and conditions?). I am the same regarding this. I have confirmed for myself that contactless transactions don't appear as anything on my bank account until after at least 3 days and immediately charges me. For chip and PIN, I am immediately deducted the amount from the 'available' balance despite the charge still happening a few days later. I have confirmed that this is due to contactless vs chip and PIN because I did the exact same transaction, same shop, same item, same price, one day difference. I have tried it a few times. All with the same result.

Anyway, I wouldn't trust a stranger to hold my card for me when I am more than capable of putting it into a card machine myself.

Also, isn't the point of those wireless card transmitter things to abide by the rule of banks that the owner is the only person to use their card? Same with those keypads in banks/shops that allows you to put your card in and just enter the PIN but is still controlled by the person at the till, I believe.

This is simply untrue.

Dalomanakora

If I were OP, I would have just handed over my card. However, I see where he's coming from.


Contactless payments absolutely do take longer to show on my banking online. 3-5 days for it to even show as pending, as opposed to chip and pin showing instantly. Might be an issue with my own bank, but that's what happens.


And as someone else pointed out, you're not supposed to be handing over your card. That said, where I work, despite me ALWAYS turning the card machine to the person and telling them they can tap or insert their card, 50% of people hand the card to me to do it for them. So maybe the shop guy is used to doing it for people.


It still shouldn't be an issue to let the card owner do it themselves though.

LeakingLava

troyzer wrote: »

This is simply untrue.

Sure :pac:

Dalomanakora

troyzer wrote: »

This is simply untrue.

Absolutely not untrue. I've done it myself. I'm with PTSB and contactless ALWAYS takes far longer to even show as pending.

c6ysaphjvqw41k

Dalomanakora wrote: »

Absolutely not untrue. I've done it myself. I'm with PTSB and contactless ALWAYS takes far longer to even show as pending.

It might be a particular issue with PTSB as I'm with them too and always have the same issue with contactless. My husband noticed the same and hes with PTSB.

LeakingLava

Kase Howling Truth wrote: »

It might be a particular issue with PTSB as I'm with them too and always have the same issue with contactless. My husband noticed the same and hes with PTSB.

I am with a different bank, though.

antodeco

The great thing about contactless is that if you have €30 in your account, you can normally get a few days usage out of it before it goes "actually, you don't have enough money".

I found this out by using contactless and never checked my account before. It then put me into overdraft 2 or 3 days later and I then had a bounced payment and charge of €12.60 because there wasn't enough in my account (there was the day previous, it just took so long for the contactless to come through. I had assumed it had already been taken out).

Pelvis

If it's that important for a €2 purchase to show up on your account immediately then you've probably got far bigger problems.

troyzer

These sound like issuing bank specific issues because there's literally no difference between the acquiring process.

My partner works for one of the largest payment processing companies in the world working specifically on card batching. I know what I'm talking about.

Auguste Comte

You made the right decision to walk.

LeakingLava

troyzer wrote: »

These sound like issuing bank specific issues because there's literally no difference between the acquiring process.

My partner works for one of the largest payment processing companies in the world working specifically on card batching. I know what I'm talking about.

This is simply untrue. :pac: :pac: :pac:

c6ysaphjvqw41k

Definitely not an issue, just something I've noticed with contactless since switching to PTSB. When I used to be with BOI anytime a transaction didn't go through and I had to enter my pin twice, I would always get 2 pending transactions for 3 or so days and then one would come out and the other disappear. Never once had that happen with PTSB. I think all banks have their own issues with processing.

TheMilkyPirate

I'm with AIB and contactless payments definitely do take much longer to leave my bank than chip and pin. It's always the case in lidl I live across the road so I'm always in there, if I pay chip and pin money is gone straight away. If I pay contactless it can take anything up to 4-5 days sometimes for it to come out.

Fann Linn

troyzer wrote: »

Yeah but the roundabout in Artane isn't particularly famous, sure it's a bog standard four exit roundabout. The one in Walkinstown is a Goliath with six exits.

With two pubs on it in case you need something to eat or drink whilst navigating it.

VeryTerry

troyzer wrote: »

These sound like issuing bank specific issues because there's literally no difference between the acquiring process.

My partner works for one of the largest payment processing companies in the world working specifically on card batching. I know what I'm talking about.

You clearly don't. Like everyone else in this thread in my experience of the thousands of tapped transactions I have completed is they always take far longer to come out. This often would lead to my account ending up in a negative balance when they are processed. This never happens with chip and pin.