.220 Swift for deer?

Uinseann_16

I was wondering if anyone here is using a .220 swift for deer? im debating on buying a .223 or a .220 swift with the .223 ill have cheap ammo and readily available at that but i could bring the .220 swift deer shooting ( a 55gr .224in diameter bullet @1800ft/lbs is deer legal) id plan on using the swift for fallow and keep the .308 for the reds
Am i mad to consider a swift? should i just get a .223, the rifles main use will be for foxing as at the moment the .22 has its limits and the .308 is a tad too much:P cheers

ejg

If you have a 308... why would you want to choose a swift for Fallow?
edi

Damoeire33

Sounds like you want another rifle and are trying to get a good enough excuse to do so lol
Nothing wrong with that at all either. If it was me id use the .308 for deer and get a .223 or a .17 for foxes

tac foley

ANY .223 ammunition is easier to get ahold of than MOST .220Swift - if the posts here over the years are anything to go by.

zeissman

Keep your 308 for all deer and get a 223 for foxing.

gunny123

I had a sako .308 and used it for everything, deer, foxes, targets. It was lazer accurate, did not recoil much worth talking about and ammo was easy to find in all different types.

rugerfanatic

Swift is an awsome round. OP, in this case get a 223.

Zxthinger

I'm using swift for deer. It does the job there's no doubt in that.
Ammo is limited. You'd have to get someone to import Norma ammo for you, some places have 60hp and some have 55 ballistic tip.
If ye could reload it would make it a great round.
A 22-250 might be better as the ammo selection is much larger yet the two round are nearly identical obviously the swift is more powerful..
If your looking for something cheap to feed then a 223 would be the way forward.
Don't forget that there is a bunch of interfering calibre preachers trying to raise the minimum calibre to 243, and they have never even seen a deer shot with a swift or a 22-250.
The swift is a tool that performs a surgical strike. The low recoil means that it is s tack driver. It's best at ranges below 150m.

tac foley

Using a .220 Swift for ALL deer? What is the law in the RoI?

This is the law in the uk -

In England, deer shooting must be done with a calibre of at least .240" with a minimum of 1,700 FPE. In practical terms this means the .243 Winchester calibre although .308 Win, 6.5x55 Swede and .270 Rem are also popular, especially among stalkers of the larger species such as Fallow and Red. One point to note is that if you want a single rifle to shoot deer and fox or shoot in a particularly windy area, the HO Guidance to the Police says you may choose a 6mm or 6.5mm calibre rifle.

In Scotland Roe may be shot with a minimum of a 50 grain bullet travelling at least 2,450 FPS to give 1,000 FPE which in practical terms means a minimum of .222 Rem calibre. For other deer species, a minimum of a 100 grain bullet travelling at 2,450 FPS giving 1,750 FPE is required.

Richard308

I believe it is not legal to hunt deer with a 220 Swift with a bullet less than 60 grain as 55 grain only develop 1654 fpe at the muzzle out of a 24” barrel most hunting rifles have a shorter barrel than that. So I believe 60 grain is minimum legal in a swift. 1700fpe is minimum energy requirement

tac foley

Autre pays, autres facons.

Cass

tac foley wrote: »

Using a .220 Swift for ALL deer? What is the law in the RoI?

.22 centrefire bullet
55gr bullet
1,700 ft/lb

For any/all deer in ireland all three of the above must be met. Some think if a round/bullet can meet one or two of them it's fine, it's not. It must meet all three at a MINIMUM.

So as Richard308 said above if the swift cannot meet the criteria using a 55gr bullet but can with a 60gr then 60gr is the minimum once it still is 22 centrefire (which it obviously is) and produces a minimum of 1,700 ft/lb.

Cass

Cass, I'm still confused as to how you can shoot a larger deer with a .22 centrefire.

Well first off i don't shoot deer with a 22 centrefire.

As to how "you" shoot a deer with a 22 centrefire its simple. You aim the rifle at the deer, and once it's been properly zeroed, you pull the trigger and the deer goes down.

I'm not advocating for using the minimum possible caliber, in fact i'e been a stron enough opponent of such practices. However the law on calibers has been in place since 1976 when a 22 centrefire was the largest caliber available and very few even had access to them.

The law has not changed with the times and most lads use best practice by going for a larger and more appropriate caliber.

tac foley

Cass wrote: »

I'm not advocating for using the minimum possible caliber, in fact i'e been a stron enough opponent of such practices. However the law on calibers has been in place since 1976 when a 22 centrefire was the largest caliber available and very few even had access to them.

The law has not changed with the times and most lads use best practice by going for a larger and more appropriate caliber.

So basically, you are saying that in Ireland you are allowed to shoot a 300 pound animal with a .22 centrefire of some kind, providing that the bullet weighs 60gr or over, and that it meets the v/m/e requirements?


I'm very glad to hear that most shooters use an appropriate calibre, but still surprised that the laws, which seem to pick up on most elements of shooting sports with instant and often ill-advised decisions, have not been amended in 42 years.

Cass

tac foley wrote: »

So basically, you are saying that in Ireland you are allowed to shoot a 300 pound animal with a .22 centrefire of some kind, providing that the bullet weighs 60gr or over, and that it meets the v/m/e requirements?

Not 60gr, 55gr (minimum) as listed above. IOW if you could get a 223 in 55gr producing 1,700 ft/lb at the muzzle then it'd be deer legal. However as they cannot make that, its not.

I'm very glad to hear that most shooters use an appropriate calibre,

There has been calls to increase the minimum caliber to .240 minimum, but so far no change.

but still surprised that the laws, which seem to pick up on most elements of shooting sports with instant and often ill-advised decisions, have not been amended in 42 years.

There has been two amendment acts in 2000 and 2010, but none addressed the bullet weight issue.

The changes you reference are political and not best practice. IOW they are usually reactionary changes so the Government are seen to be doing something.

Things like the handgun ban of 2008 was a kneejerk reaction to the senseless murder of Shane Geoghegan by criminals with an illegal firearm. It does not address the causes of gun violence, has not stopped illegal gun violence by criminals, and was a less than subtle opening for DoJ/AGS to attack a section of sports shooters they wanted gone (after loosing the court case that saw the reintroduction of pistols).

Same with the current, illegal, semi auto rifle ban. They [Government] don't want them based on actions/events oversees and to make sure they are seen by the general public to be tackling "gun crime".

The laws surrounding guns and hunting are not changed quickly or often because the prevailing attitude is:

• There are more important thing to be doing
• its working, however poorly.

Richard308

I actually believe a 223 firing a 90 grain bullet out of a 32” barrel with 1 in 7 twist is deer legal. Wouldn’t be recommended

Cass

Even for a 90gr VLD you'd need to be doing over 3,200fps at the muzzle just to (at least on paper) reach the 1,700 ft/lb mark.

Now achieving those speeds with a 223 is running a very, very hot load. I've seen f-class shooters running 90gr vlds, but the speeds were always in the 2700 to 2850 mark (some 300 to 450 shy of the mark) which means a muzzle energy of 1500 to 1600 ft/lb .

IOW while it might be possible it's on the extreme end of the spectrum, and the case/caliber, and frankly for everyday purposes, improbable.

Richard308

Agreed, not recommended but possible.

Cass wrote: »

Even for a 90gr VLD you'd need to be doing over 3,200fps at the muzzle just to (at least on paper) reach the 1,700 ft/lb mark.

Now achieving those speeds with a 223 is running a very, very hot load. I've seen f-class shooters running 90gr vlds, but the speeds were always in the 2700 to 2850 mark (some 300 to 450 shy of the mark) which means a muzzle energy of 1500 to 1600 ft/lb .

IOW while it might be possible it's on the extreme end of the spectrum, and the case/caliber, and frankly for everyday purposes, improbable.

tac foley

@Cass - Thank you, Sir, for a full and detailed answer.

gunny123

It makes me laugh a bit, from 1972 when .22 cf's became all you could use to shoot deer with, people were unhappy and lobbied the ministers and government to allow larger rifles on humane grounds.

I remember when maire geoghan quinn relented and allowed rifles up to .270, proper deer rounds, not gopher and fox rounds, everyone i knew who shot deer got speeding tickets getting to the dealers to buy a .243 or .270.

What is the attraction of messing around trying to get undersized rounds puffed up into deer legal rounds ? You want to shoot deer, have a bit of respect for your quarry and buy a .243, 6.5, 7mm, .270 or .30 cal.

ayagerard

n the last 50 years i also have seen the good the bad and the ugly in 1972 minister o'malley issued the temporary custody order where by all pistols , and rifles greater than .22 held by law abiding civilians were handed over to the custody of the gardi , again this act had no effect on illegally held guns in the state held by vets republicans, or criminals ,in the late 90s as gunny have said this was relaxed a little and a handful off 243- 270 licences were issued 300 out off over 1100 applications were successful and it wasn't until frank brophy took his high court case in 2004 that the minister repealed the the custody order and gave back the firearms held in custody by the guardi that is not so long ago ,
i have owned a . 22 swift for over 30 years in all that time i have never found it wanting i also own a 7mm08 with about 5 years so i am not biased
the law now states a .22 with a 55gr bullet achieving 1700 ft lb is legal to hunt deer in ireland if you have a licence and permission from the land owner
any way enough with the history class
2 euro fifty a shot is not for the faint hearted and is a very dear rabbit at a hundred yards but a lot of excitement at 350 yards or a certain fox at that range the cost of ammo for a 223 will be roughly 1/3 say 20 euro a box for 20 but your rabbit will want to be around 250 yards and you will have to be more aware of your drops this is still a mighty shot and no mean achievement
if i had a 308 i would use that for deer and get a 223 for fox and fun principaly on the price of ammo ?// ironically the best animal i have witnessed being shot was by an old boy back in the mid nineties he stood motionless against a fence line for at least 40 minutes no como then in plain view but motionless while a stag approached to about 30 yards , bang blink and flop it was clinical he had no swift , no i am not suggesting that any one goes hunting with anything less than legal requirement , or brakes the law

Zxthinger

Wow.. a lot of opinions for people... some that have never used a swift and one that has.. interesting..
Respect..you need to respect the abilities of the round. Yes it's a round with optium range of effectiveness but once operated within sensible ranges it will drop deer all day long..

Remember that all calibres/chamberings have an optimum operational range..
Maybe you not satisfied with my thoughts on the subject so perhaps some of you should read the writings of PO Ackley. He is probably the most famous gunsmith and wildcat designer the world has ever known.. He was heavily involved in a cull where in he shot several hundred donkeys with a swift. He was left amazement by the cartridges performance. He went on to harvest other large North American game and remained in awe of the swifts capability.

This was from a man who explored and searched for the hidden potential in cartridge design.

Richard308

I personally love the swift, flat shooting accurate and fast moving round. However the fact remains you cannot shoot deer using a 55grain round in Ireland. 60 grain is legal but most Swift’s in Ireland are American makes which don’t shoot 60 grain well owing to the slow twist 1:14 barrels. Plus there doesn’t appear to be any 60 grain available anywhere in the country. I have a particularly fond memory of knocking a Fox at 300 metres with a swift. I love the swift and will not part with it, but I use my 308w for deer.

Zxthinger wrote: »

Wow.. a lot of opinions for people... some that have never used a swift and one that has.. interesting..
Respect..you need to respect the abilities of the round. Yes it's a round with optium range of effectiveness but once operated within sensible ranges it will drop deer all day long..

Remember that all calibres/chamberings have an optimum operational range..
Maybe you not satisfied with my thoughts on the subject so perhaps some of you should read the writings of PO Ackley. He is probably the most famous gunsmith and wildcat designer the world has ever known.. He was heavily involved in a cull where in he shot several hundred donkeys with a swift. He was left amazement by the cartridges performance. He went on to harvest other large North American game and remained in awe of the swifts capability.

This was from a man who explored and searched for the hidden potential in cartridge design.

gunny123

I had all sorts over the years, a .17 rem, .22 hornet, .22-250, 6.5, .270, .308, .243, .303, etc, and yes i had a .220 swift. Great for foxes, and probably deer at a pinch, but i still think its not a deer round. Things despite all, are a lot easier on the licencing front than they were years ago, if you want a swift to shoot targets or foxes, then get one, but also buy a larger centrefire for deer.

hiddenmongoose

I had a swift for years, dropped countless foxes with it and in its last couple of years deer too. I shot deer mainly on farmland with shots of 100 to 200 meters. The swift was lethal at those ranges and would fold deer on the spot. For those kind of ranges on fallow/sika a swift is more than capable and more than enough, in fact it was probably safer than shooting them on farmland with a 308 as no over penetration.
In the end the barrell burnt out, I needed to rebarrell or change and I had purchased a 308 as well.
I stepped down to a 223 for the following reasons, NPWS started giving me hassle over a swift for deer as well as my 308, the 60gr bullets as stated above were not accurate in the twist rate on my gun, it was 2 euro 20cent a shot double that of the 223, it was loud as hell!!
I stepped down to a 223 and it is nowhere near the same level for shooting foxes, but it is way cheaper and much quieter. i shoot my deer with a 308 now.
So is it a decent deer calibre.....well out to 200 or so meters yes as long as the bullets and twist rate suit. Is there now much better options ..of course.

clivej

Uinseann_16 wrote: »

I was wondering if anyone here is using a .220 swift for deer? im debating on buying a .223 or a .220 swift with the .223 ill have cheap ammo and readily available at that but i could bring the .220 swift deer shooting ( a 55gr .224in diameter bullet @1800ft/lbs is deer legal) id plan on using the swift for fallow and keep the .308 for the reds
Am i mad to consider a swift? should i just get a .223, the rifles main use will be for foxing as at the moment the .22 has its limits and the .308 is a tad too much:P cheers

The real question is "WHY' would you want to use the Swift when you have far better options already???????
Your .308 will grass any deer at a good distance. Plenty of ammo choice.

.223 for almost everything else, .308 for the big game.

It always pains me when ppl ask this same question, when the answer is 'WHY' would you.

Zxthinger

As one of a good few that has used the swift I can say this that the swift has limits, as do all gun/chamberings. Even the 7mm RUM has limits.. do you exceed them? Occasionally yes but I'm always aware of them.
Why bother with a swift... It excels on flat shooting of light bullets which is great for night time fox shooting where range is estimated at speed and believe me it's easy to be well off at night regarding range. The errors are to some extent mitigated by the flat trajectory, however that's grand and tidy at night with no wind but in the day you can dial in sitting crows or rabbits out to 600-700 yards but you'll be struggling big time with the wind.

I be honest I got the swift because it was a deer calibre that seemed to slip the net as far as the PTB that be were concerned. They would licence it without question. I was advised to steer away from the 22-250 because it could require a deer licence and I was told that in my parish the local super would not give out 243's for foxing.
I couldnt bare the thought of be trapped with a potential possibility of not securing a deer licence in any third year thus potentially forfeiting my large calibre firearm.

Knowing what I know now think I choose a 243 and insist on licensing it for foxes. It's just a better round for deer and less upset by wind ..
Dont get me wrong I still love my swift but I could have pressed against the machine and sought and fought for a 243
If there was no nonsense-guidelines then I'd have gone straight for a rem260.
Anyway I'll be out harvesting in the coming weeks. Yum yum.