Avengers: Endgame [** SPOILERS FROM POST 613 **]

mloc123

Kirby wrote: »

Teenagers are the worst. So little regard for anyone else around them. Wouldn't shut the f*ck up with the constant loud talking and I've never heard a cinema so loud when it comes to snacks. Like some of these gobsh*tes behind me HAD to have been doing it on purpose. Imagine a plastic bag being smashed and crinkled for three f*cking hours straight and you get the idea. Oh, and chew with your mouth closed ffs.

The reason I went at 8am... almost an empty cinema

NuMarvel

GavRedKing wrote: »

Thinking back as I go and another plot hole is Nebula in the future knowing about Gamora and the soul stone and what you had to do to retrieve it.

Clint and Nath are both sent to get it but when Redskull explains to them what you need to do in order to get the stone, theyre both perplexed and shcoked.

Now, Nebula and I'm assuming Stark knows about it as they were on Titan when Thanos returned without Gamora and survived the snap there together so they must have talked about it but never filled the others in, even Hulk when Clint comes back and Nath doesnt, is clueless to it.

Had any other team been paired to get the soul stone other than Clint and Nath the mission would have been a bust given what you had to sacrifice.

Surely Nebula or Stark should have mentioned it to the team before hand.

Nebula wouldn't have necessarily known that a sacrifice was needed for the soul stone. All she knows for sure is that Gamora went to Vormir, and didn't come back. For all she knew, Thanos killed Gamora when he got the stone, as he would no longer have need to keep her alive. She had been lying to him all along about it's location, so from Nebula's perspective, it's plausible he'd kill her in retaliation instead of as a sacrifice.

RickBlaine

Massive event movies like Endgame can offen be great audience experiences. It can really make the film really enjoyable and entertaining. For example, there was a collective gasp followed by cheering when Cap caught the hammer.

I usually love almost empty screens but I think Endgame is best enjoyed with a packed enthusiastic audience. Shame some assholes ruin that for some people.

Ethereal Cereal

I might go see Greta tonight, cause the screen will be empty :pac:

ilovesmybrick

RickBlaine wrote:

I usually love almost empty screens but I think Endgame is best enjoyed with a packed enthusiastic audience. Shame some assholes ruin that for some people.

Yeah, usually I hate packed screens, and groaned when I realised my cunning plan of going to a 3pm showing backfired cos I forgot schools were off and it was all teenagers, but I'm so happy I saw it early, in a packed room of people all on the first showing. It was awesome. I don't go for the cheers/gasps/sobbing myself, but all of that did add to the experience. Tis up there with my favourite experiences in a cinema.

The White Wolf

RickBlaine wrote: »

Massive event movies like Endgame can offen be great audience experiences. It can really make the film really enjoyable and entertaining. For example, there was a collective gasp followed by cheering when Cap caught the hammer.

I usually love almost empty screens but I think Endgame is best enjoyed with a packed enthusiastic audience. Shame some assholes ruin that for some people.

I prefer empty screens myself but there was definitely some moments I would have liked to have experienced with an in tune crowd; On your left and the madness to follow being the main one.

RickBlaine

Hail Hydra got a great reaction in my screening. In fairness, it was a very clever and witty moment.

Same with Cap's "Yeah I know".

In fact the whole New York sequence was really entertaining.

mloc123

Not really sure sitting in a packed room of people eating popcorn, nachos and crisps while slurping drinks adds anything to the "experience" for me.

martingriff

pah wrote: »

They kissed briefly in Civil War, when was he tapping her?

A suggest nothing more like went out on a date or 2

The White Wolf

mloc123 wrote: »

Not really sure sitting in a packed room of people eating popcorn, nachos and crisps while slurping drinks adds anything to the "experience" for me.

Well yes but depends what you want from it; would be nice to experience a film with an in tune crowd but I'm happy to sacrifice it in exchange for not having to put up with the odd idiot. All it takes is one to ruin a film so I prefer very early doors showings.

Baggly

martingriff wrote:

A suggest nothing more like went out on a date or 2

What's weird about it is she would have known when she went for that kiss that this was aunt peggies husband.

He didn't know at the time but she would have known growing up.

That's some electra complex.

I had a great time in the packed theatre. It's an event film, like seeing a concert with a crowd

Mitch Connor

Pter wrote: »

What's weird about it is she would have known when she went for that kiss that this was aunt peggies husband.

He didn't know at the time but she would have known growing up.

That's some electra complex.

Peggy also never said anything to Steve when she was dying in hospital - because that reality didn't exist for them.

pjohnson

Giant Man charging onward during the Avengers assemble was a great shot.

micks_address

Mitch Connor wrote: »

Peggy also never said anything to Steve when she was dying in hospital - because that reality didn't exist for them.

So in caps altered timeline he goes back in time spends life with Peggy.. does she still get Alzheimer's or perhaps they have kids and one or those kids gets caps powers..

pah

martingriff wrote: »

A suggest nothing more like went out on a date or 2

When he was in hiding between civil war and infinity war?

Doubt it

Mitch Connor

micks_address wrote: »

So in caps altered timeline he goes back in time spends life with Peggy.. does she still get Alzheimer's or perhaps they have kids and one or those kids gets caps powers..

Fook knows.

I don't get how Cap doesn't effect the timeline we saw, but can also still appear at the end of the reality we experienced. Its a plot hole, really.

But it is one i'm just not bothered about getting an answer for. I loved the movies and interactions we got, and I loved the idea of Cap going back and having the life he missed with Peg.

So I'm just gonna forget about the plot holes rather than get bogged down in whether Cap and Peg could have had have a relationship.

nix

Yeah for movies that delve into time travel, you just have to let the movie set and break its rules and ignore any what if's or buts that pop into your head :pac:

“So Back to the Future's a bunch of bullshit?”

“So Endgame's a bunch of bullshit?”

:pac:

GavRedKing

I think giving Falcon the shield and in effect making him Captain America was a cop out, Buckey was the better choice but I'd imagine off screen he turned it down, like when Cap said he'd miss him before going back with the stones he was probably given the choice, maybe he felt his work with Hydra didnt make him worthy enough to don the shield.

I also agree that Cap going back to live out his life with Peggy has to have had some f**k up on the timeline along the way, introducing time travel was the only way to reverse the snap but its going to lead to more what ifs and buts going forward.

I mean now that they have time travelling tech from Stark, Lang and Pym they can if they wish, do whatever they like and destroy any threat after it turns up.

Well, Dr. Strange might have an issue with them time hopping but unless any future threats destroys the ability for the majority of the cast to time travel, the threat seems inconsequential.

5star02707

Saw it the second time and wow just realised Jarvis was there in human form (driver) before Tony and Cap depart.

Mitch Connor

5star02707 wrote: »

Saw it the second time and wow just realised Jarvis was there in human form (driver) before Tony and Cap depart.

Would have loved to see Quake make small cameo appearance in the final battle - though maybe she is dead by then. who knows.

Mitch Connor

GavRedKing wrote: »

I think giving Falcon the shield and in effect making him Captain America was a cop out, Buckey was the better choice but I'd imagine off screen he turned it down, like when Cap said he'd miss him before going back with the stones he was probably given the choice, maybe he felt his work with Hydra didnt make him worthy enough to don the shield.

I also agree that Cap going back to live out his life with Peggy has to have had some f**k up on the timeline along the way, introducing time travel was the only way to reverse the snap but its going to lead to more what ifs and buts going forward.

I mean now that they have time travelling tech from Stark, Lang and Pym they can if they wish, do whatever they like and destroy any threat after it turns up.

Well, Dr. Strange might have an issue with them time hopping but unless any future threats destroys the ability for the majority of the cast to time travel, the threat seems inconsequential.

Phase 4 is Flashpoint before DC get to do it!

My name is Captain Marvel, and i'm the only hero over powered enough to fix it!

nix

5star02707 wrote: »

Saw it the second time and wow just realised Jarvis was there in human form (driver) before Tony and Cap depart.

Yeah he's in the Peggy Carter TV series a lot also :pac:

Slydice

Hrmmm maybe I've seen too much sci-fi and just got how the time travel here worked.
The Ancient One explained it. They drew a line. They showed the split. They made it simple.


It is not: go back, change something, come forward and it will have changed in your past.

It is:

• go back, change something, you have a new universe created separately
  the new universe will have a different future from yours but it is not your universe
• you return to where you came from.. your original universe
  you have your original timeline, your past hasn't changed
  your universe it separate from the one you created by travelling back

This is what I was getting at earlier:

Slydice wrote: »

You know who got off pretty lightly...

the other Universe which Gamora, Nebula and Thanos .. his army and his big ship .. all left behind to come forward in time.


you know what as well.. now we've got the big ship that Thanos brought. Granted Captain Marvel knocked lumps out of it but it looked like a good chunk that crashed into the lake will be salvagable.

Like there's other stuff too.

Cos our Captain America more than likely created another Universe

We can still have a Captain America at the end, but either he also came back from his original Universe or maybe he's an imposter. Could be a part of phase 4 setup, cos where'd the hammer go etc

chopperbyrne

I'm coining the name Robert Thoratheon.

NuMarvel

GavRedKing wrote: »

I think giving Falcon the shield and in effect making him Captain America was a cop out, Buckey was the better choice but I'd imagine off screen he turned it down, like when Cap said he'd miss him before going back with the stones he was probably given the choice, maybe he felt his work with Hydra didnt make him worthy enough to don the shield.

I also agree that Cap going back to live out his life with Peggy has to have had some f**k up on the timeline along the way, introducing time travel was the only way to reverse the snap but its going to lead to more what ifs and buts going forward.

In the grand scheme of things I think the effects on the timeline of Cap living out his life with Peggy will nothing compared to Thanos dying 4 years before he's meant to!!

Slydice wrote: »

Hrmmm maybe I've seen too much sci-fi and just got how the time travel here worked.
The Ancient One explained it. They drew a line. They showed the split. They made it simple.


It is not: go back, change something, come forward and it will have changed in your past.

It is:

• go back, change something, you have a new universe created separately
  the new universe will have a different future from yours but it is not your universe
• you return to where you came from.. your original universe
  you have your original timeline, your past hasn't changed
  your universe it separate from the one you created by travelling back

This is what I was getting at earlier:



Like there's other stuff too.

Cos our Captain America more than likely created another Universe

We can still have a Captain America at the end, but either he also came back from his original Universe or maybe he's an imposter. Could be a part of phase 4 setup, cos where'd the hammer go etc

Wasn't the Ancient One only showing the effect of taking the stones out of the timeline, not of time travel in general? That's why they had to make sure the stones were returned to the proper time and place. Bad things would happen otherwise. But on the other hand, no one seemed overly concerned about the effects of Loki escaping.

Whatsisname

Kirby wrote: »

Teenagers are the worst. So little regard for anyone else around them. Wouldn't shut the f*ck up with the constant loud talking and I've never heard a cinema so loud when it comes to snacks. Like some of these gobsh*tes behind me HAD to have been doing it on purpose. Imagine a plastic bag being smashed and crinkled for three f*cking hours straight and you get the idea. Oh, and chew with your mouth closed ffs.

I've never been more annoyed and distracted in any screening before. This film's release coinciding with school holidays was a disaster. If I wasn't concerned with missing bits of the film, I'd have demanded that the staff kick them out. Proper f*cking scumbags. :mad:

Despite that, I still enjoyed the film.

Holy ****, I had the exact same thing happen to me. Guy sitting next to me spent the first half hour sucking his fingers after eating nachos, then spent the next 2 hours eating popcorn with his mouth open. All while the guy behind me spent about 20 mins opening up a chocolate bar. First half an hour of the film I genuinely couldn't concentrate. ****ing people.

5star02707

Whatsisname wrote: »

Holy ****, I had the exact same thing happen to me. Guy sitting next to me spent the first half hour sucking his fingers after eating nachos, then spent the next 2 hours eating popcorn with his mouth open. All while the guy behind me spent about 20 mins opening up a chocolate bar. First half an hour of the film I genuinely couldn't concentrate. ****ing people.

all it means is we just have to watch it all over again when the hype dies down :P give it a week or try an earlier screening and there will be less peeps

Triceratops Ballet

Saw it last night, on a high level I thought it was an enjoyable way to spend 3 hours, and a fitting end to the franchise as we've known it BUT I think overall IW was a better movie.

Things I liked:
Steve/Cap story
Tony / Iron Man story (despite not being an Iron man fan)

loved his interaction with John Slattery

Thor story, I thought it was a more emotional journey than I would have been expecting from Thor, loved

his mother coming back

the

return of everyone lost in the snap mid battle

and

Nebula literally killing her former self to save her sister I really like that she is the one to avenge her sister rather than Quill

Things I disliked:
The seeds of

alt timeline Loki escaping and no follow up

Everything with Hawkeye, like does anyone care about this guy?

Black Widow dying instead of Hawkeye

like don't

kill off your only female avenger

and expect props form me for your pandering "women of marvel" mid battle scene. The entire thing is preposterous narratively how did they all find each other, it makes no sense for them to be all together they don't all know each other? a scene with the dora milaje would have been more effective at achieving a "girl power" moment that seemed less pandering. All that aside it's just lip service if they wanted to send that message they should have done it years ago with a black widow movie before DC cleaned up with WW.

Steve getting old and coming back, I thought part of his deal was he couldn't age. I'd have preferred him to end up dancing with Peggy without the coming back to explain as it was clear he was going to go back to the past when he sees her in 1970

GavRedKing

If the Ancient One has the Time Stone during the NY attack and is protecting the sanctum, why didnt she help the Avengers?

Time travel is great and all but it throws up too many questions and plot holes from previous films and events.

Cap was tasked with returning the Stones to a time I'm assuming immediately after they were taken to reverse the snap which opens up a whole load of questions, how do you return the soul stone and does it bring Nath back, also meeting Red Skull again must have been great fun for Cap.

He has to go back to a military base under lock down to return the tesseract to a highly secure area where they were looking for a person matching his description.

Quill is K/O'd so does Cap just tuck the Power Stone into his pocket etc etc

Or have I this all screwed up, I fear I do....bloody mad time travel. :pac:

mloc123

Lots of differing views on how time travel should work etc..

But I assume everyone is on the same page about "that scene" with the ridiculously shoehorned girl power shot? I cringed so hard.

Chris_Heilong

I always go to the early showings and always enjoy a very quiet showing, The film was epic

time travel made the film very entertaining especially for long time fans who got to see some of their favorite scenes from new angles. Really like all the little moments like cap fighting with Thor's hammer. Captain Marvel is still very overpowered and I am happy she was not in too much of the film, I felt the same way about Vision but they nurfed him at the start of infinity war so his power level did not negatively effect that film. It was a little slow near the start when every one was moping around but it needed that to contrast the full speed ahead nature of the rest of the movie

A fine end to a great universe and glad I was along for the ride, I hope they continue to make good films but am worry they take inspiration from modern comics which are just political garbage.

Midnight_EG

If that scene makes my daughter/niece/missus feel in any way empowered and want to enjoy and love what I do most (movie-wise) well then I'm all for it. It was 15 seconds, it affected nobody personally and if it did then I'd consider carefully looking at yourself and wondering why you're offended at 10 women in the biggest movie ever made

GavRedKing

mloc123 wrote: »

Lots of differing views on how time travel should work etc..

But I assume everyone is on the same page about "that scene" with the ridiculously shoehorned girl power shot? I cringed so hard.

Ya, I even turned and left out a slightly audible "bollocks" to the fiancee and the guy next to her smiled and chuckled.

It was worth of an eye roll it was so hammed up and forced into shot, it was totally out of context with what was happening too at the time. As people have said earlier, there was no way they would have all lined up for an assault on Thanos and his army as barely any of them had any interaction with the other group.

Chris_Heilong

GavRedKing wrote: »

If the Ancient One has the Time Stone during the NY attack and is protecting the sanctum, why didnt she help the Avengers?

Time travel is great and all but it throws up too many questions and plot holes from previous films and events.

Cap was tasked with returning the Stones to a time I'm assuming immediately after they were taken to reverse the snap which opens up a whole load of questions, how do you return the soul stone and does it bring Nath back, also meeting Red Skull again must have been great fun for Cap.

He has to go back to a military base under lock down to return the tesseract to a highly secure area where they were looking for a person matching his description.

Quill is K/O'd so does Cap just tuck the Power Stone into his pocket etc etc

Or have I this all screwed up, I fear I do....bloody mad time travel. :pac:

I had the exact same thoughts, the Ancient One is selfish so and the stone is everything to her so her priority was on that.

I asked the exact same thing about returning the soul stone.

RickBlaine

I saw this on Twitter. I thought it was pretty poignant:

Triceratops Ballet

Midnight_EG wrote: »

If that scene makes my daughter/niece/missus feel in any way empowered and want to enjoy and love what I do most (movie-wise) well then I'm all for it. It was 15 seconds, it affected nobody personally and if it did then I'd consider carefully looking at yourself and wondering why you're offended at 10 women in the biggest movie ever made

I'm all for the empowerment of women, but marvel would have served its self and female empowerment better if they'd gotten the finger out years ago and had a female driven movie, or not fridged their female avenger for feckin Hawkeye!!
They managed a balanced empowering movie in Black Panther that didn't look like pandering to women, so they're capable of it, they just don't seem to care and thought a token gesture was enough!

GavRedKing

I didnt like Black Panther or Captain Marvel, I think they were average enough origin stories that were pandering and some people were afraid to criticise at the time, in saying that, both were better than Ant Man & the Wasp and Dr. Strange, IMO.

Drumpot

Some guy and his young son just walked past me on the street in swords. All I Hard was , “so there can’t be any more iron man movies!”.

That’s why , if it matters to you, you goto these sort of movies on open day. Thank god it didn’t matter to me!!!

Shows are selling out everythere, I was thinking of going to it again but it’s just cleaning up!!!!

GavRedKing

Chris_Heilong wrote: »

I had the exact same thoughts, the Ancient One is selfish so and the stone is everything to her so her priority was on that.

I asked the exact same thing about returning the soul stone.

I get that, Strange himself said the same on the way to Titan, as a stone keeper it was his only job to protect it at all costs.

The ancient one only gave Banner the stone when he told her that Strange gave it up to Thanos and she was trusting future Stranges judgement as he was the best of them.

But she could have helped out a little, she was sitting on her rooftop watching the world burn, Dr. Strange is now charged with protecting the earth from exactly the type of attack that would have happened during the first invasion so the Ancient Ones placing in NY at the time of the attack and her only looking for the soul stone was a but of a cop out.

I think those kind of explanations could have been handled a bit better.

Thats just nit picking though, it was enjoyable enough romp and end to what was a mad decade of films and stories that roughly chopped together to bring us to Endgame.

GavRedKing

Drumpot wrote: »

Some guy and his young son just walked past me on the street in swords. All I Hard was , “so there can’t be any more iron man movies!”.

That’s why , if it matters to you, you goto these sort of movies on open day. Thank god it didn’t matter to me!!!

Shows are selling out everythere, I was thinking of going to it again but it’s just cleaning up!!!!

There was a lot of people spilling out of the earlier film as we were queuing up to get popcorn and drinks for our showing and they were talking about the film. I didnt over hear anything as I was talking to herself but if I had, I would have been seriously pi**ed off having survived for so long.

The White Wolf

Drumpot wrote: »

Some guy and his young son just walked past me on the street in swords. All I Hard was , “so there can’t be any more iron man movies!”.

That’s why , if it matters to you, you goto these sort of movies on open day. Thank god it didn’t matter to me!!!

Shows are selling out everythere, I was thinking of going to it again but it’s just cleaning up!!!!

There'll be more Iron Man films just not featuring RDJ. Katherine Langford of 13 Reasons Why fame filmed scenes that didn't make the final cut; if I had to guess she played a future Morgan who will probably end up being Iron Heart.

NuMarvel

The White Wolf wrote: »

There'll be more Iron Man films just not featuring RDJ. Katherine Langford of 13 Reasons Why fame filmed scenes that didn't make the final cut; if I had to guess she played a future Morgan who will probably end up being Iron Heart.

And now that the Avengers have access to time travel, they can just copy The Crossing storyline from the comics and bring back a teenaged Tony Stark who goes on to be come Iron Man. (Before he's retconned back into being an adult and nobody ever mentions it again.)

GavRedKing

I know they can time travel but to keep things some what sane, I can imagine they'll either be parking the idea in future films and specifically mentioning this (not messing with the past anymore) or they'll have their tech destroyed with no way of re-building it.

It only works partly due to Pym so if they killed him off they could in theory end time travel if they had no particles left.

pxdf9i5cmoavkz

GavRedKing wrote: »

If the Ancient One has the Time Stone during the NY attack and is protecting the sanctum, why didnt she help the Avengers?

The Ancient One wrote:

The Avengers protect the world from physical dangers. We safeguard it against more mystical threats.

Yes, I know, it's not an excuse but there you have it.

That being said, I'm pretty sure I saw her doing a little bit of work on the top of the roof. She was doing her finger wavey thing and cutting a couple of the riders in half or am I imagining it?

kerplun k

Loved the film, I won’t do the normal review thingy as I generally agree with most of the stuff already said on here, but one thing I kind of want to talk about is my growing itch I have with the MCU formula. It probably sounds like I'm sh1tting all over this, but honestly I'm not, I love these films, but like some others have said, I'm not sure I even want to continue the journey after this.


I find when I’m watching the latest marvel movies I keep thinking about a Tim Burton movie I saw called Big Eyes, if you haven’t seen it, it’s essentially a movie about an artist that paints her different subjects in a similar style, the artist is Margaret Keane, Google her images and you'll see what I mean, the paintings are all variations of things using the same style, anyhews, about halfway through the movie her paintings reaches the height of their fame and Keane is tasked with painting a piece called Tomorrow Forever, and again she uses the same style and technique to produce her biggest and best work, which is basically the same thing she normally does but more of it, squeezed into this one huge painting displaying all her work. And that’s how I feel about the VFX in Infinity War and Endgame, its Marvels version of Tomorrow Forever.

These are the most "MCU" films yet, what I mean by that is that they use the same generic VFX, but more of it, and like Margaret Keane, the art is perfectly fine, but its the same dam thing, just more of it.

The MCU seem to be relying more and more on VFX, Maybe because its cheaper and less time-consuming, it’s probably more convenient to use VFX to make changes in post-production than to do reshoots, I dunno. Let’s look at some of the VFX counts from some of the moves, Information was sourced from upcomingvfxmovies.com

phase 1,
Film, VFX
The Avengers, 2200
Thor, 1309
Iron Man 2, 1000
Iron Man, 800

Now let’s look at the VFX counts from some of the films post phase 1

phase 2 and 3
Film, VFX
Avengers: Infinity War, 2680
Black Panther, 2456
GOTG V2, 2300
Civil War, 3000
Doctor Strange, 1450
Avengers: Age of Ultron, 3000
Guardians of the Galaxy, 2750
Winter Soldier, 2500
Iron Man 3, 2000


I think it’s fair to say from this that VFX within the MCU has seen a large spike.
Why do I have a problem with this... It’s simple, The MCU hands off the VFX in their movies to a special effects team which gives a director less input on the finished product.


As these movies become more dependent on special effects, the room for creativity is diminished at least in terms of the visuals.
As the VFX become more prevalent, it now seems like the VFX artists are directing these movies, leaving the actual director with less of a chance to put their own stamp on it.
When these films do shine, it’s through the dialogue and character moments, this is where the directors can actually put their own spin on things.

This can be highlighted with two films Directed by Ryan Coogler. Creed and Black Panther.

Let’s first look at the big fight scene from Black Panther, look at the CGI, look at the character movements, and look at the ever increasing ignorance for the basic laws of physics

After watching this, many accused Coogler of being inexperienced in doing actions scenes, but my argument against this was his work on Creed.

Let’s look at one of my favourite shots from this film

Now, tell me this man doesn’t know how to direct an action scene.

so again, what’s the problem with BP? why is the action scenes so bland and generic, especially when you compare it to some of his work on Creed, If you ask me, I think the answer is that Coogler hasn’t got much of a say on the action in BP.

When discussing the visuals of MCU films these same type of accusations are leveled at the Russo brothers and again I would argue that this is not their fault, Its the ever increasing influence of Feiges insistence that the visuals are outsourced to the SFX team.

Take a look at this article from screenrant. Marvel even has a crash course for new indie directors that come in to direct their movies.

Normally when we go see these type of action moves, we tolerate things like a lose plot or one dimensional characters because we get rewarded with the big action pieces, but with the MCU, things have been turned on its head a little, the big action scenes come secondary to the characters, we almost tolerate the SFX because we love the characters and relationships between those characters. The highlights are the dialogues and moments between these characters.
When people talk about their favorite parts of IW, it’s the Stark/Parker relationship, or Thor/GOTG bits, the jokes, etc., not one person came to me and said "I loved the bit when Thanos threw that moon at Stark".

The MCU has got away the dodgy VFX for so long now because we've had 9 years of character development, the ground work was done in phase 1 without a ton of green screen, heck, even the main event of phase 1, The Avengers had less VFX than most of the films in phase 2 and 3.

I think this poses a huge problem for the MCU, because if this is the end, and they plan to start a new chapter, they won't have the luxury of build up from previous moves that laid the ground work.

Look at a side by side from the original Iron Man and endgame.

Look at the original Iron Man trailer

Look at the movements, the suit, look how real it looks, and then compare this to some of the scenes in Captain Marvel, BP IW and Endgame and tell me this isn't a problem.

Now, in saying all of that, I get that IW and Endgame is Marvels Tomorrow Forever, it needs to be big, the people demand it, its the season final after all, however, If this really is the end like Marvel are claiming, they should go all in, and do the same with the VFX process.

I say start again, start small, hire creatives like they did in phase 1 and let them actually direct their own action sequences, give them full creative control, and let them establish their own unique style, because if the MCU really is serious about starting over, and you take a movie like Shang-Chi, and you try pull this generic gravity defying, rubbery movement, laser beam shooting up into the sky crap, no one will care.

I think going forward, if the MCU want to remain relevant, they really do need to start over and take a chance and trust the creative process rather than special effects.

micks_address

kerplun k wrote: »

Loved the film, I won’t do the normal review thingy as I generally agree with most of the stuff already said on here, but one thing I kind of want to talk about is my growing itch I have with the MCU formula. It probably sounds like I'm sh1tting all over this, but honestly I'm not, I love these films, but like some others have said, I'm not sure I even want to continue the journey after this.


I find when I’m watching the latest marvel movies I keep thinking about a Tim Burton movie I saw called Big Eyes, if you haven’t seen it, it’s essentially a movie about an artist that paints her different subjects in a similar style, the artist is Margaret Keane, Google her images and you'll see what I mean, the paintings are all variations of things using the same style, anyhews, about halfway through the movie her paintings reaches the height of their fame and Keane is tasked with painting a piece called Tomorrow Forever, and again she uses the same style and technique to produce her biggest and best work, which is basically the same thing she normally does but more of it, squeezed into this one huge painting displaying all her work. And that’s how I about the VFX in Infinity War and Endgame, its Marvels version of Tomorrow Forever.

These are the most "MCU" films yet, what I mean by that is that they use the same generic VFX, but more of it, and like Margaret Keane, the art is perfectly fine, but its the same dam thing, just more of it.

The MCU seem to be relying more and more on VFX, Maybe because its cheaper and less time-consuming, it’s probably more convenient to use VFX to make changes in post-production than to do reshoots, I dunno. Let’s look at some of the VFX counts from some of the moves, Information was sourced from upcomingvfxmovies.com

phase 1,
Film, VFX
The Avengers, 2200
Thor, 1309
Iron Man 2, 1000
Iron Man, 800

Now let’s look at the VFX counts from some of the films post phase 1

phase 2 and 3
Film, VFX
Avengers: Infinity War, 2680
Black Panther, 2456
GOTG V2, 2300
Civil War, 3000
Doctor Strange, 1450
Avengers: Age of Ultron, 3000
Guardians of the Galaxy, 2750
Winter Soldier, 2500
Iron Man 3, 2000


I think it’s fair to say from this that VFX within the MCU has seen a large spike.
Why do I have a problem with this... It’s simple, The MCU hands off the VFX in their movies to a special effects team which gives a director less input on the finished product.


As the movies become more dependent on special effects, the room for creativity is diminished at least in terms of the visuals.
As the VFX become more prevalent, it now seems like the VFX artists are directing these movies, leaving the actual director with less of a chance to put their own stamp it.
When these films do shine, it’s through the dialogue and character moments, this is where the directors can actually put their own spin on things.

This can be highlighted with two films from Directed by Ryan Coogler. Creed and Black Panther.

Let’s first look at the big fight scene from Black Panther, look at the CGI, look at the character movements, and look at the ever increasing ignorance for the basic laws of physics

After watching this, many accused Coogler of being inexperienced in doing actions scenes, but my argument against this was his work on Creed.

Let’s look at one of my favourite shots from this film

Now, tell me this man doesn’t know how to direct an action scene.

so again, what’s the problem with BP? why is the action scenes so bland and generic, especially when you compare it to some of his work on Creed, If you ask me, I think the answer is that Coogler hasn’t got much say on the action in BP.

When discussing the visuals of MCU films these same type of accusations are leveled at the Russo brothers and again I would argue that this is not their fault, Its the ever increasing influence of Feiges insistence that the visuals are outsourced to the SFX team.

Take a look at this article from screenrant.[/URL] Marvel even has a crash course for new indie directors that come in to direct their movies.

Normally when we go see these type of action moves, we tolerate things like a lose plot or one dimensional characters because we get rewarded with the big action pieces, but with the MCU, things have been turned on its head a little, the big action scenes come secondary to the characters, we almost tolerate the SFX because we love the characters and relationships between those characters. The highlights are the dialogues and moments between these characters.
When people talk about their favorite parts of IW, it’s the Stark/Parker relationship, or Thor/GOTG bits, the jokes, etc., not one person came to be and said "I loved the bit when Thanos threw that moon at Stark".

The MCU has got away the dodgy VFX for so long now because we've had 9 years of character development, the ground work was done in phase 1 without a ton of green screen, heck even, and the main event of phase 1, The Avengers had less VFX than most of the films in phase 2 and 3.

I think this poses is a huge problem for the MCU, because if this is the end, and they plan to start a new chapter, they won't have the luxury of build up from previous moves that laid the ground work.

Look at a side by side from the original Iron Man and endgame.

Look at the original Iron Man trailer

Look at the movements, the suit, look how real it looks, and then compare this to some of the scenes in Captain Marvel, BP IW and Endgame and tell me this isn't a problem.

Now, in saying all of that, I get that IW and Endgame are Marvels Tomorrow Forever, it needs to be big, the people demand it, its the season final after all, however, If this really is the end like Marvel are claiming, they should go all in, and do the same with the VFX process.

I say start again, start small, hire creatives like they did in phase 1 and let them actually direct their own actions sequences, give them full creative control, and let them establish their own unique style, because if the MCU really is serious about starting over, and you take a movie like Shang-Chi, and you try pull this generic gravity defying, rubbery movement, laser bean shooting up into the sky crap, no one will care.

I think going forward, if the MCU want to remain relevant, they really do need to start over and take a chance and trust the creative process rather than special effects.

I think it's fair to say once they hit space and guardians etc the vfx was always going to go through the roof. I don't disagree re the fight scenes some looked like computer game sequences but there's fantastical stuff going on that I don't think would be very easy to re create in the real world

GavRedKing

GavRedKing wrote: »

I didnt like Black Panther or Captain Marvel, I think they were average enough origin stories that were pandering and some people were afraid to criticise at the time, in saying that, both were better than Ant Man & the Wasp and Dr. Strange, IMO.

Ya know the worst thing? I love both Characters, just not the MCU versions (although Panther is loosening up a bit and growing on me)

Mitch Connor

I didn't feel there was a problem with the physicality or fighting in Winger Soldier or civil war - i thought both were excellent for it. Both also Directed by the Russo's. Both high on the VFX count. The Civil War did struggle in the larger scenes in the airport for example (but Bucky's escape, fight vs Cross Bones, Cap and Buck vs Iron Man were very good imo)

As to why BP was a bit poor for it - maybe its because they are not supposed to move or behave like fully humans. They are supposed to have cat like qualities to their agility, speed, reactions, movement etc.

titan18

I was a bit disappointed by it tbh. It's not a bad film, but it's weaker than IW, and a good bit more than some or the stronger individual films.

I don't think they show the devastation well, and cos of the decision with time travel and leaving the 5 years, there's plot holes all over the place. Few eye rolling moments too (that stupid girl power shot and Thor's beer belly) that really don't work imo.