Avengers: Endgame [** SPOILERS FROM POST 613 **]

johnny_ultimate

Patser wrote: »

Keep every 5 year or younger kid alive in the Galaxy, you mean - everyone lost in the snap was restored exactly as they were, whereas everyone who didn't disappear were now 5 years older but with all that they'd gained in that time

Some of the bleak side consequences of the snap reversal are interesting - the non-snapped who died during the five years; those who return to find their world up-ended (people who’ve moved on etc)... A lot of people returning from their five year timeout to discover a pretty ****ed up world no doubt. Although reckon that sort of grim stuff is better handled by the likes of The Leftovers than the popcorn heroics of the MCU.

MaceFace

Firstly - I really liked the movie. No idea how it will hold up to multiple viewings (I've watched many MCU movies 10+ times each, but not sure if there is enough "action" in this to keep my switched off brain going.

So...
I wasn't so much bothered about the time travel bit as put it down to the multi-verse concept. Happy to generally go with that.

What I was thinking more about is what do 50% of the world do when they suddenly appear?

Did they come back confused? Everyone controlling a car/plane etc. will probably end up crashing.
People will reappear in places where there are now objects/buildings now - all dead. Likewise on bridges etc that are no longer there. Dead
Not enough food for the sudden increase. No jobs. Dead
What about the folks who moved into the empty house down the street or moved in with the neighbour?

Zubeneschamali

Mitch Connor wrote: »

Can you explain it to me like i am 5?

No-one can explain it because it makes no sense.

And they had the gall to slag off Back to the Future, which has a consistent version of time travel.

If effecting the past doesn't effect the present, how did Cap end up on the bench at the end?

It makes no sense except for this - this is easy with any version of time travel. We never saw Peggy's husband in any of the movies - turns out it was Steve all along.

silverharp

The more you think of it the more complications there are, the population of earth just doubled, how will they be fed?

NuMarvel

Gbear wrote: »

They didn't travel into their past. Every trip they made was it's own self-contained universe.

That's not how it's explained in the film though. You might be right, and time travel in the comics originally worked that way so that may have been the intention. But there's nothing in the movie that we can point to to say this is how it works.

And the other issue is that if time travel means going to alternate universes, then in which universe did Cap marry Peggy and grow old? If it's another one, then how did he get back to ours?

Gbear

silverharp wrote: »

The more you think of it the more complications there are, the population of earth just doubled, how will they be fed?

There's also double the number of cows.

NuMarvel

silverharp wrote: »

The more you think of it the more complications there are, the population of earth just doubled, how will they be fed?

It was established at the start of the movie that there are now more whales .

Gbear

NuMarvel wrote: »

That's not how it's explained in the film though. You might be right, and time travel in the comics originally worked that way so that may have been the intention. But there's nothing in the movie that we can point to to say this is how it works.

It is, both in the time travel explanation scene with Bruce, Ant-Man, Rhodey and Hawkeye, and then later with the Ancient One and Ghost-Bruce.

NuMarvel wrote: »

And the other issue is that if time travel means going to alternate universes, then in which universe did Cap marry Peggy and grow old? If it's another one, then how did he get back to ours?

That scene appears to break the rules they were at pains to set out previously, purely for the sake of a reveal that "OMG! HE'S OLD NOW! AND WISTFULLY STARING OFF INTO THE DISTANCE!".

Other than that, they're fairly explicit about the whole thing. I don't really know why they elected to break it there at the finish for a shot they could've otherwise achieved.

ondafly

I am so glad I can accept this movie on face value.

Personally I was taken out of the movie, when I think Paul Rudd was pulling along a green trolley cart. We use that exact one in work, and its always going missing and causing rows over who used it last. Feckin Rudd did.

Patser

Gbear wrote: »

There's also double the number of cows.

Yep, Antman comments that Hulks snap must have worked as he sees a lot more birds on the tree, so 50% of animals must have disappeared in the Thanos snap and are now back, along with all the extra Whales etc born over the previous 5 years with less humans eating them (or moping about depressed)

silverharp

that would help , it included all life so including plants, so you would have a weird situation of trees and crops that disappeared 5 years ago suddenly reappearing.

Zubeneschamali

Gbear wrote: »

They didn't travel into their past. Every trip they made was it's own self-contained universe.

There was no overlap between them.

No, Steve living out his life here and arriving on the park bench clearly shows it is time travel.


Howard Stark remembers the comment Tony makes (as Potts) about what his Dad used to say and repeats it his son, clearly our Tony, in a time loop.

Zubeneschamali

Gbear wrote: »

It is, both in the time travel explanation scene with Bruce, Ant-Man, Rhodey and Hawkeye, and then later with the Ancient One and Ghost-Bruce.

Bruce is literally talking in gobbledegook, it means nothing.

The Ancient One actually draws the timeline diagram from Back to the Future II!

(She is also talking rubbish, Thanos doesn't just remove the stones, he destroys them yet the Earth is not overrun by the Dark Dimensions even though she and Strange are both dead.)

Ethereal Cereal

Ethereal Cereal wrote: »

Yea, when I saw his 5 year old daughter, it had occurred to me that a plot point would be Tony having to sacrifice his own daughter for the sake of the universe but...

the writers didn't really explore this. She was bang on 5 years old, so it wasn't established was she pre or post snap. There was that discussion in IW about Pepper being pregnant. And I cant imagine Tony and Pepper deciding to have a child within the first year after the snap, with everything that was happening.

Also that means Tony really inflicted universe wide chaos all to keep his own daughter?

As I said a few pages back, if someone asked me to sacrifice my child I would say "f*ck your timeline"

micks_address

i thought it might have been a more interesting end if cap disappeared and black widow re appeared in his place..

Penn

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

(She is also talking rubbish, Thanos doesn't just remove the stones, he destroys them yet the Earth is not overrun by the Dark Dimensions even though she and Strange are both dead.)

There are other Sorcerers likely defending each from threats, but I also think The Ancient One was more so saying that if the Time Stone is removed from her in the past, then occasions where she/Strange would have used the stone against threats between 2012 and the future, they then wouldn't have the stone. Hence why it's agreed they have to return the stone back to right when it was taken from.

alchemist33

I agree with Gbear's explanantion of things. Overall they did the time travel well - recovering the stones to undo the snap, rather than just going back and preventing it all happening, was a big plus for the film. But Cap's return was a mistake in their use of time travel and some of what Tilda Swinton's character said didn't hang together either.

Re characters being easily able to return to their own timeline, I think this was that the quantum machine pulled them back, rather than them having to navigate the multiverse to find their own world.

Mitch Connor

Penn wrote: »

There are other Sorcerers likely defending each from threats, but I also think The Ancient One was more so saying that if the Time Stone is removed from her in the past, then occasions where she/Strange would have used the stone against threats between 2012 and the future, they then wouldn't have the stone. Hence why it's agreed they have to return the stone back to right when it was taken from.

My memory of it is that the stones are tied to the fabric of that reality and that removing a stone (any stone) would have dire consequences - which is why they were returned.

Big issue with Thanos destorying them - but it could be that the energy that they are made of was returned to the universe, so they are not removed but also cannot be used. Speculation with no basis for that, really, though.

kerplun k

johnny_ultimate wrote: »

Some of the bleak side consequences of the snap reversal are interesting - the non-snapped who died during the five years; those who return to find their world up-ended (people who’ve moved on etc)... A lot of people returning from their five year timeout to discover a pretty ****ed up world no doubt. Although reckon that sort of grim stuff is better handled by the likes of The Leftovers than the popcorn heroics of the MCU.

Tis would make a great TV show.

NuMarvel

Gbear wrote: »

It is, both in the time travel explanation scene with Bruce, Ant-Man, Rhodey and Hawkeye, and then later with the Ancient One and Ghost-Bruce.

I don't remember any mention of alternate universes in Bruce's first explanation. He didn't really explain it at all, just said that things won't change, because your past is the present, and the present is your future or something like that.

And I took the Ancient One's warnings to be specific to removing the stones, and not time travel in general.

But it's possible I missed some stuff while being outraged at Banner trash talking Back to the Future. :mad::mad:

Zubeneschamali

Penn wrote: »

There are other Sorcerers likely defending each from threats, but I also think The Ancient One was more so saying that if the Time Stone is removed from her in the past, then occasions where she/Strange would have used the stone against threats between 2012 and the future, they then wouldn't have the stone. Hence why it's agreed they have to return the stone back to right when it was taken from.

But the stone is destroyed by Thanos in the first act, she is dead, Strange is dust, yet even without the Ancient One, Strange and the stone, no bad things overrun the earth while everyone is moping around.



She is wrong.

brianregan09

Wong would have taken over as Sorcerer Supreme easy really

Zubeneschamali

brianregan09 wrote: »

Wong would have taken over as Sorcerer Supreme easy really

He has no stone though.

brianregan09

Yeah but nobody else has either they were protectors of the stones more than users of them, they would still be able to protect the earth from other dimensions

Victor

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

But the stone is destroyed by Thanos in the first act, she is dead, Strange is dust, yet even without the Ancient One, Strange and the stone, no bad things overrun the earth while everyone is moping around.

In fairness, within a few years Thanos shows up again wanting to kill everyone. :pac:

Ping Chow Chi

If they took the time stone in the first avengers film and did not return it, that would have let that weird fella in Dr Strange win though.

Penn

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

He has no stone though.

They don't always use the stone though. The stone was more of a failsafe; a weapon for them to use in extreme circumstances, when it might appear that nothing else will work. Other than that, it was something that they protected and hid. She was saying that without their greatest weapon they could be left defenceless, and she was right (as Dr.Strange would have failed at defeating Dormammu without it).

Yes, the stones no longer exist because in the present they have now been destroyed by Thanos, so they have lost their greatest weapon, but given the cost of the alternative, it was the price which had to be paid.

Foxtrol

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

But the stone is destroyed by Thanos in the first act, she is dead, Strange is dust, yet even without the Ancient One, Strange and the stone, no bad things overrun the earth while everyone is moping around.

She is wrong.

How is she wrong, Dr Strange needed the time stone to defeat Dormammu in his movie in 2016, so we know it was required at this point at minimum?

She has some knowledge of the future (knowing about Dr Strange) but it is also clearly limited, not aware that he gives away the stone. Their group basically devotes their life in part to protect the time stone, so it isn't that surprising that she thinks it’ll be necessary again.

Again I'm not sure this is something to be caught up on, there's a decent explanation for it.

RayCun

Midnight_EG wrote: »

Failing to understand this

Some people really don't like Captain Marvel

paulbok

silverharp wrote: »

that would help , it included all life so including plants, so you would have a weird situation of trees and crops that disappeared 5 years ago suddenly reappearing.

What if you have say a tree re-appear where a person is now standing, is that how Groots people were created?

Ave Sodalis

Foxtrol wrote:

She has some knowledge of the future (knowing about Dr Strange) but it is also clearly limited, not aware that he gives away the stone. Their group basically devotes their life in part to protect the time stone, so it isn't that surprising that she thinks it’ll be necessary again.

She can only see as far as her own death, which happens after Strange comes but before Infinity Wars.

Foxtrol

Agent Coulson wrote: »

Anyone else think RDJ really didn't look healthy in the film?

Due to nearly dying of starvation he was supposed to look terrible before the 5 year jump. Feel that might have coloured my perception of him for the rest of the movie.

RDJ is starting to show his age and, though not quite Thor levels, didn’t put in the effort to get in superhero shape for this (which makes some sense being retired).

Tazzimus

The dude is 53 and had a fairly hard early life with all the drugs etc.

I actually think he looks alright considering his age, not Paul Rudd levels of alright, but decent for a man approaching his mid 50's

eviltimeban

So, if Cap went back to the 40s and got back with the girl, wouldn't everyone have known who he was? He was pretty famous. So they wouldn't have been looking for him or found him in the ice.

And how did he get back to the 40s, if he had only gone back to 1970? Could he go anywhere he wanted? My take was that Banner had plotted a course for him and was in control of where / when he was going.

Zubeneschamali

eviltimeban wrote: »

So, if Cap went back to the 40s and got back with the girl, wouldn't everyone have known who he was?

Maybe he grew a beard.

RayCun

eviltimeban wrote: »

And how did he get back to the 40s, if he had only gone back to 1970? Could he go anywhere he wanted? My take was that Banner had plotted a course for him and was in control of where / when he was going.

Remember they originally went back to New York during the invasion, and he and Tony used their second jump to travel to 1970 instead of back to their own time.

TerrorFirmer

Tazzimus wrote: »

The dude is 53 and had a fairly hard early life with all the drugs etc.

I actually think he looks alright considering his age, not Paul Rudd levels of alright, but decent for a man approaching his mid 50's

I would say he looks more than alright, he looks good for 54.

Interestingly, the guy who plays Crossbones (Frank Grillo) is also 53 and in great shape for a guy that age.

So, if Cap went back to the 40s and got back with the girl, wouldn't everyone have known who he was? He was pretty famous. So they wouldn't have been looking for him or found him in the ice.

I would guess that they chose the quiet life far, far away from everything they had known, so his other-self would have followed the same path as he once did and no-one would've been any the wiser.

On the 2nd point, I also guess he could've jumped again if he had a vial of pym's compound on his person. A one-way trip.

Drumpot

eviltimeban wrote: »

So, if Cap went back to the 40s and got back with the girl, wouldn't everyone have known who he was? He was pretty famous. So they wouldn't have been looking for him or found him in the ice.

And how did he get back to the 40s, if he had only gone back to 1970? Could he go anywhere he wanted? My take was that Banner had plotted a course for him and was in control of where / when he was going.

As I understood it, Cap had enough pym sauce to make enough Jumps to return all the stones, not just the 1970 jump. When he returned the stones he went back to 1940 instead of coming back to 2023z. What hulk was controlling on his end I don’t full know TBH.

There seems to be a couple of explanations of time travel. The ancient one suggested alternative universes are created once you go back in time and change the past. This makes sense in some regards but doesn’t explain how the Cap ended up back in 2023 unless you accept that the universes can reconnect.

If I understand it Right (i prob don’t) In that explanation Cap goes back to 1940s and immediately starts a new universe/dimension. I heard an explanation that I think suggests that this alternative dimension merges back with the original dimension in 2023 around the time the Cap is on the bench.

The issue of how Cap didn’t make any changes to the timeline is a head scratcher. But I think the less you think about it the better. Time travel should be accepted as a plot device and since it has unverifiable variables I don’t see the benefit of pulling it apart. We will all end up annoyed , confused or both!!!

Foxtrol

Drumpot wrote: »

There seems to be a couple of explanations of time travel. The ancient one suggested alternative universes are created once you go back in time and change the past. This makes sense in some regards but doesn’t explain how the Cap ended up back in 2023 unless you accept that the universes can reconnect.

If I understand it Right (i prob don’t) In that explanation Cap goes back to 1940s and immediately starts a new universe/dimension. I heard an explanation that I think suggests that this alternative dimension merges back with the original dimension in 2023 around the time the Cap is on the bench.

The issue of how Cap didn’t make any changes to the timeline is a head scratcher. But I think the less you think about it the better. Time travel should be accepted as a plot device and since it has unverifiable variables I don’t see the benefit of pulling it apart. We will all end up annoyed , confused or both!!!

Ancient One talks about the stones leaving a timeline and causing alternative universes, but this can be averted if they are all brought back right when they are taken. She doesn’t mention the actions of people themselves and the consistent statements in the movie is that any other action can’t change the past.

There’s no evidence in the previous movies that Cap isn’t living his life in the background until he reveals himself on the bench and Tony telling his Dad that saying points that there could be a time loop there, where past Tony impacted himself.

Drumpot

Foxtrol wrote: »

Ancient One talks about the stones leaving a timeline and causing alternative universes, but this can be averted if they are all brought back right when they are taken. She doesn’t mention the actions of people themselves and the consistent statements in the movie is that any other action can’t change the past.

There’s no evidence in the previous movies that Cap isn’t living his life in the background until he reveals himself on the bench and Tony telling his Dad that saying points that there could be a time loop there, where past Tony impacted himself.

Was it banner or the ancient one who said that you can’t change the past?

Also did the ancient one not say that if you take a stone out of a timeline this is when the split universe happens?

Would that mean basically that if a stone isn’t taken then you aren’t altering a timeline (even if you go back in time) but it’s only if you take a stone that a new universe is made?

Foxtrol

Drumpot wrote: »

Was it banner or the ancient one who said that you can’t change the past?

Also did the ancient one not say that if you take a stone out of a timeline this is when the split universe happens?

Would that mean basically that if a stone isn’t taken then you aren’t altering a timeline (even if you go back in time) but it’s only if you take a stone that a new universe is made?

That’s what my take of it is from the evidence.

Ancient One only talks about how taking a stone out impacts the universe causing a split. She doesn’t seem bothered about what else they do there. That doesn’t prove things either way, but I would think she would have included any actions rather than focusing just on the stones.

Thor’s mother, who we can presume would have a higher-level knowledge about time travel based on technology/magic, without stating it outright seems to more be in line with that time cant be changed.

The biggest potential for inconsistency is the impact of taking Thanos etc out of their time and how that could not create an alternative universe. They could use Tony’s snap as an out in that though.

Like pretty much everything in the MCU I think it works well enough once you don’t overthink it.

w/s/p/c/

Really really enjoyed this film. Good wrap up to the saga so far.

I love this thread 3000, however I think some people are really reading too much into the time travel and the what if's. I agree there are some questions that need to be answered, but why bother dwell on it. Same goes for the female hero team up scene. Who cares, it was about 10 seconds long ffs.

Enjoy the comic book superhero movie for what it was!

PhiloCypher

Drumpot wrote: »

Was it banner or the ancient one who said that you can’t change the past?

Also did the ancient one not say that if you take a stone out of a timeline this is when the split universe happens?

Would that mean basically that if a stone isn’t taken then you aren’t altering a timeline (even if you go back in time) but it’s only if you take a stone that a new universe is made?

My read from the scene between the ancient one and Hulk is that unless the stone is returned to that time and place she will be unable to pass the The time stone onto Strange and thus he will be unable to trap the interdimenional cthulu from his solo film in a time paradox and the world ends before Thanos even arrives. A pretty fundamental split.

Ethereal Cereal

w/s/p/c/ wrote: »

Really really enjoyed this film. Good wrap up to the saga so far.

I love this thread 3000, however I think some people are really reading too much into the time travel and the what if's. I agree there are some questions that need to be answered, but why bother dwell on it. Same goes for the female hero team up scene. Who cares, it was about 10 seconds long ffs.

Enjoy the comic book superhero movie for what it was!

Yea, but if a movie doesn't adhere to its own internal logic, it reduces the standard of it IMO.

This happens mostly in time travel movies, but there are often deus ex machina's introduced. I think for a movie this big, that is receiving so much critical attention, they would have the writing at %100

PhiloCypher

Can anyone remember what Peggy's relationship status was. I vaguely recall a scene between a newly returned Cap and a dying Peggy where she mentions a deceased husband. Did he die young or did Cap break up a marriage to have his happy ending.

Mitch Connor

PhiloCypher wrote: »

Can anyone remember what Peggy's relationship status was. I vaguely recall a scene between a newly returned Cap and a dying Peggy where she mentions a deceased husband. Did he die young or did Cap break up a marriage to have his happy ending.

could have got back there before she found the person she married.

Mitch Connor

PhiloCypher wrote: »

My read from the scene between the ancient one and Hulk is that unless the stone is returned to that time and place she will be unable to pass the The time stone onto Strange and thus he will be unable to trap the interdimenional cthulu from his solo film in a time paradox and the world ends before Thanos even arrives. A pretty fundamental split.

My memory of it is that the stones are tied to reality itself and removing it causes fundemental problems, rather than it being a paradox issue for the Strange movie.

kerplun k

Mitch Connor wrote: »

could have got back there before she found the person she married.

Hell, even if she was married, it’s fricken Captain America. Did ye not see his ass shot in endgame? As far as I’m concerned, that’s Americas ass. Either way she’s ending up with Cap, and who could blame her.

Foxtrol

PhiloCypher wrote: »

Can anyone remember what Peggy's relationship status was. I vaguely recall a scene between a newly returned Cap and a dying Peggy where she mentions a deceased husband. Did he die young or did Cap break up a marriage to have his happy ending.

Cap watches a recording of her saying that during the Hydra jailbreak he saved 1000 men, including the man she married. Vague enough answer that it could be that she’s talking about Cap himself, being purposefully vague to not give away his time travel secret.

Being a spy with huge resources I’m sure they could have hidden him well enough. Similarly, they could have had their dance, realized after a while that they didn’t suit each other, and he went off and married some other woman, who was completely unaware of his time travels.

Again, they left enough room that you can explain it away.

Midnight_EG