Avengers: Endgame [** SPOILERS FROM POST 613 **]

silverharp

I didn't even spot that wamen scene, but then it wasn’t meant for me, that Larson wan needs to cop on though, its obvious the cast hate her

doc_17

What they did with Thor in that film was stupid. He was basically the comic relief. I know some will try and explain it away but I think it was dumb and entirely unnecessary.

Overall I thought it was a bang average film compared to some of Marvel's other films.

But I'm glad that real die hard fans enjoyed it.

w/s/p/c/

Posters commenting on RDJ's physique. When he is rescued and is gaunt and frail looking, is his body not CGI'd to make him look this way (similar to the de-aging effects and body double they used for Chris Evans in The First Avenger)? I thought that this is what was done.

I know he is pushing on in age, but don't forget this was filmed shortly after IW, don't recall him being in bad shape for that?

rossie1977

doc_17 wrote: »

What they did with Thor in that film was stupid. He was basically the comic relief. I know some will try and explain it away but I think it was dumb and entirely unnecessary.

Agree. First scene was funny but they turned him into comedy sidekick for the movie. For me Thor has had the best origin story in the movies and Hemsworth has been terrific in the role. He was such a unique character overall that Cap becoming a knock-off Thor was a bit annoying.

Foxtrol

doc_17 wrote: »

What they did with Thor in that film was stupid. He was basically the comic relief. I know some will try and explain it away but I think it was dumb and entirely unnecessary.

If you look at every comic book movie you have to explain many things away.

It didn’t work for you, personally I felt they slightly over did it, but they needed to de-power Thor from what we saw at the end of IW and this was a unexpected and funny route to take.

Mitch Connor

Foxtrol wrote: »

If you look at every comic book movie you have to explain many things away.

It didn’t work for you, personally I felt they slightly over did it, but they needed to de-power Thor from what we saw at the end of IW and this was a unexpected and funny route to take.

I think he needed a bit more of a return to his Ragnarok personality, or IW, towards the end of the movie - following his meeting with his Mum.

To me the banter and jokes were deflection from his depression over what happened to Asgard and Asgardians under his watch. But he never moved beyond that in any real way - even the last scene has him being the same.

We've had a funny thor - but in IW it was given somber tones as well "what more could I possibly lose" - with the jokes and bragarding his way of not thinking about it.

Just felt there should have been a tonal shift after the Asgard scenes, that we didn't get.

Agent Coulson

Agent 13 didn't get her cameo either in Endgame.

So Steve dumped Peggy's grand niece for Peggy.

Cap sure did like to keep it in the family.

Penn

Foxtrol wrote: »

If you look at every comic book movie you have to explain many things away.

It didn’t work for you, personally I felt they slightly over did it, but they needed to de-power Thor from what we saw at the end of IW and this was a unexpected and funny route to take.

Plus from what I've read it was Hemsworth himself who pushed for it. Maybe not that specifically, but he pushed to keep Thor funny and weird even more than he was in Ragnarok.

I enjoyed Thor a lot in this movie. I think they balanced the comedic aspects of Fat-Thor well with his obvious PTSD/survivor's guilt. If you think about how soon Infinity War likely happens after Ragnarok, we have a Thor who has lost his father, hammer, sister, destroyed his own home, half the Asgardians killed by Thanos, Heimdall & Loki also killed by Thanos, and he blames himself for not striking the killing blow on Thanos which allowed him to snap, thereby killing half the living creatures in the universe. All that in a matter of weeks at most, if not days (depending on how long they were on the ship for between Ragnarok and IW. And between IW and Endgame, he obviously became extremely depressed.

I thought they balanced it well in showing how far he'd allowed himself to fall, while still keeping it as light as possible. And even fat, he looked proper viking-badass in the final fight.

RayCun

I think Thor's story could have worked on it's own, but it didn't mesh well with the other stories. Everyone else got super sad and serious but he was jolly and drunk. Yes, to hide pain, but still, it was like watching two different movies cut together.

(Banner/Hulk could have been a good bridge but wasn't. He didn't seem sad at all)

Sonics2k

I've actually been thinking about this and y'know what, Chris Hemsworth has been the stand out character and actor for the entire MCU.

We all expect a lot from RDJ, who is always amazing. But I can't help that feel that his actual acting range hasn't been as great as it could have been overall, despite the great character arch itself.

Hemsworth though, especially in IW and Endgame showed some real chops. While we all had a great laugh with his sudden weight gain, we saw a genuinely sad scene between his him and his mother, how he'd basically all but given up and being a King or Hero.

In Thor we saw total loss, his girlfriend, his mother, his father, his brother, his home, his planet and then the vast majority of the remainders were taken out too.

He had the perfect chance to kill Thanos and save the world before the snap, but his aim was off.

Hemsworth portrayed that beautifully.

Victor

RayCun wrote: »

I think Thor's story could have worked on it's own, but it didn't mesh well with the other stories. Everyone else got super sad and serious but he was jolly and drunk. Yes, to hide pain, but still, it was like watching two different movies cut together.

(Banner/Hulk could have been a good bridge but wasn't. He didn't seem sad at all)

People react to grief in different ways and move on at different rates. Thor had lost almost his entire civilisation, Hulk only lost / kept half of his.

RickBlaine

Sonics2k wrote: »

I've actually been thinking about this and y'know what, Chris Hemsworth has been the stand out character and actor for the entire MCU.

We all expect a lot from RDJ, who is always amazing. But I can't help that feel that his actual acting range hasn't been as great as it could have been overall, despite the great character arch itself.

Hemsworth though, especially in IW and Endgame showed some real chops. While we all had a great laugh with his sudden weight gain, we saw a genuinely sad scene between his him and his mother, how he'd basically all but given up and being a King or Hero.

In Thor we saw total loss, his girlfriend, his mother, his father, his brother, his home, his planet and then the vast majority of the remainders were taken out too.

He had the perfect chance to kill Thanos and save the world before the snap, but his aim was off.

Hemsworth portrayed that beautifully.

I agree which is why I wish his PTSD was played more seriously and less for laughs. Like ending the mother scene with his mother saying "eat a salad" felt very very cheap.

One of my favourite moments in the whole MCU is his talk with Rocket in IF. Such great work by Hemsworth.

Floppybits

Yeah wasn't too happy with what they did with Hulk and Thor and the bit in the middle of battle with all the women, I was expecting sister sledge to start singing "We are family, I have all my sisters with me".

Ethereal Cereal

Yea, that fat comedic Thor did not sit well with me at all.

I remember the scene in IW between himself and Rocket, about what could he possibly have left to loose. I thought that was one of the standout scenes in the movie. Then when I saw Rocket in the trailer (with the Hulk CG'd out) visiting Thors shack, I thought this would be a great opportunity for further character development. Instead it was an unconvincing fat suit played for laughs.

I also would have liked to seen some internal conflict with the Hulk. Banner seems to have just accepted now that he is a monster.

Sonics2k

RickBlaine wrote: »

I agree which is why I wish his PTSD was played more seriously and less for laughs. Like ending the mother scene with his mother saying "eat a salad" felt very very cheap.

One of my favourite moments in the whole MCU is his talk with Rocket in IF. Such great work by Hemsworth.

To me, that actually made sense for the character to become a fat, lazy layabout.

He's a thousand years old, dedicated a huge chunk of his life to becoming a physical powerhouse. At the end though, it turns out all his work was totally useless, so he binged on junk and stopped working out.

From a psychological point of view, I think it actually makes more sense because in spite of himself, Thor is often a big goofball and softie, so he falls into something that makes him happy and 'forget' the pain he feels.

Penn

Joe Russo did a Q&A for the China premiere
https://www.reddit.com/r/marvelstudios/comments/bj0it4/joe_russos_qa_about_the_plot_of_avengers_endgame/

Some of the interesting questions/answers imo:

Q: Can you get the soul your sacrificed for the Soul Stone back when you return it?

A: No, the process is irreversible. Even if you have returned it to its original location, you wouldn't be able to get the person back. In fact, it's not really returning the stone, more like put it back properly. The tribute soul for the soul stone will forever be sealed in that place, therefore Black Widow is gone forever.

Q: How did Thanos bring his army to the future?

A: There is a guy called Maw in his army, he was a great wizard. Thanos himself was a brilliant genius as well. Those two easily reverse engineered and mass produced Pym Particles.

Q: What about those people who got dusted? What did those five years mean to them? Why didn't they grow older when undusted?

A: Yes, those people whom was lucky to survive the snap are 5 years older than the people who just got back. The reason Spider Man saw his friend again in high school at the end was simply because his friends was unfortunately also dusted like Spider Man was. Of course, there are people in his grade whom didn't die and they are probably already in colleges by now. To those dusted people, they had no conscious in these past 5 years. They didn't know what happened. It's as if they had just woke up from a long sleep. The only one who was aware about how many years has passed was Doctor Strange, because he has already seen that when he was time mediating on Titan. Parker's reunion with Ned was a touching moment. There are also people whom indeed moved on but suddenly was reunited with their lost ones. Yeah it's kind a complicated world now.

Q: EG's plot, is it a parallel universe or a closed time loop?

A: Nope, not a time loop. Both Ancient One and Hulk were right. You can't change the future by simply going back to past. But it's possible to create a different alternate future. It's not butterfly effect. Every decision you made in the past could potentially create a new timeline. For example, the old Cap at the end movie, he lived his married life in a different universe from the main one. He had to make another jump back to the main universe at the end to give the shield to Sam.

So Cap going back to Peggy created a new alternate reality, and he then came from that one back to the main one to give Sam the shield.

It's not exactly a great explanation, but it at least closes it out anyway.

Mitch Connor

Penn wrote: »

Joe Russo did a Q&A for the China premiere
https://www.reddit.com/r/marvelstudios/comments/bj0it4/joe_russos_qa_about_the_plot_of_avengers_endgame/

Some of the interesting questions/answers imo:


So Cap going back to Peggy created a new alternate reality, and he then came from that one back to the main one to give Sam the shield.

It's not exactly a great explanation, but it at least closes it out anyway.

So the issue with Cap is the fact he was on the bench rather than jumping back to the time portal he left from. If he had materialised as old cap on the plate it would have been easier to understand I suppose, but less of a scene.

Necro

Watched it Sunday night and really enjoyed parts of it.

I felt the pontificating went on way too long tbh, and after the initial LOL about Thor it got old really fast. Hulk as a bystander was also pretty stupid imo.

The final battle though was brilliant, and the deaths were handled well. I haven't followed the MCU religiously and some of the standalone movies I actually think are awful (Black Panther, Doctor Strange - I'm looking at you two in particular) but Tony's death in particular hit me in the feels.

The Black Widow/Hawkeye stuff got a bit silly though. 'The battle to commit suicide' - yeah, great message to send out folks.

I figured they were going to do it with the reverse snap thing, but I kind of wish they didn't. Feels like the end of Infinity War was all for nothing tbh - which was by far the better film as well imo.

Overall a good, not great climax to the series.

NuMarvel

Penn wrote: »

Joe Russo did a Q&A for the China premiere
https://www.reddit.com/r/marvelstudios/comments/bj0it4/joe_russos_qa_about_the_plot_of_avengers_endgame/

Some of the interesting questions/answers imo:


So Cap going back to Peggy created a new alternate reality, and he then came from that one back to the main one to give Sam the shield.

It's not exactly a great explanation, but it at least closes it out anyway.

It fits with what others in the thread have said though, that travelling to the past creates new timelines and doesn't affect your own timline and history. Just wish that Banner could been clearer about that when he was dissing BTTF2 (No I'm not going to get over it!!:D).

Presumably Old Man Cap returns to his own adopted timeline after he hands the shield to Sam. It also means he might still have Mjolnir as he didn't have to return that to protect the timeline.

Patser

Never even thought to question how Thanos managed to get such a huge army through with him to the future - massive space ships and all. Serious amounts of Pym particles that.

Penn

NuMarvel wrote: »

It fits with what others in the thread have said though, that travelling to the past creates new timelines and doesn't affect your own timline and history. Just wish that Banner could been clearer about that when he was dissing BTTF2 (No I'm not going to get over it!!:D).

Presumably Old Man Cap returns to his own adopted timeline after he hands the shield to Sam. It also means he might still have Mjolnir as he didn't have to return that to protect the timeline.

He would have had to return mjolnir as Thor from The Dark World would have needed it back (as that would have been the version of Mjolnir that Thor took with him to 2023, so had to be returned to him).

Agent Coulson

6 days in and it is the 10th biggest grossing film of all time.

NuMarvel

Penn wrote: »

He would have had to return mjolnir as Thor from The Dark World would have needed it back (as that would have been the version of Mjolnir that Thor took with him to 2023, so had to be returned to him).

"Our" Dark World Thor would have always had it, because Endgame Thor taking Mjolnir created an alternate timeline that doesn't affect "our" timeline.

The only changes to the past that had to be fixed were returning the stones to where they were taken, due to their role in protecting the timestream. Cap might still have returned Mjolnir anyway but he wouldn't have had to, because Mjolnir's absence doesn't change anything that happened during or after Dark World.

Zero-Cool

Explaining time travel in Endgame

RickBlaine

It is literally impossible to explain the time travel plot without massive plot holes and inconsistencies. But I think this is one of the few movies where you can overlook the big issues with the plot because the rest is so good. It seems the Russos' priorities were characters first, entertainment second and the plot a very distant third. The first two are so strong I think the plot issues don't really matter. It is just a frame on which to hang the first two.

TheValeyard

Patser wrote: »

Never even thought to question how Thanos managed to get such a huge army through with him to the future - massive space ships and all. Serious amounts of Pym particles that.

Timey Wimey, wibbly wobbly.

micks_address

rossie1977 wrote: »

Agree. First scene was funny but they turned him into comedy sidekick for the movie. For me Thor has had the best origin story in the movies and Hemsworth has been terrific in the role. He was such a unique character overall that Cap becoming a knock-off Thor was a bit annoying.

I enjoyed it as my wife was disgusted he wasn't his usual ripped self.. talk about sexism... If I drooled over scarlet witch I'd be an awful hoor

TerrorFirmer

micks_address wrote: »

I enjoyed it as my wife was disgusted he wasn't his usual ripped self.. talk about sexism... If I drooled over scarlet witch I'd be an awful hoor

The best part for me was when he leaned back on the chair and his vast beer gut still had a six pack.

Loved washed-up bum Thor. Loved their committment to it for the entire duration of the movie even more.

Not for everyone understandably but I genuinely admire their committment.

ibFoxer

micks_address wrote: »

I enjoyed it as my wife was disgusted he wasn't his usual ripped self.. talk about sexism... If I drooled over scarlet witch I'd be an awful hoor

"IF"

kerplun k

After the Russo Q&A, I’ve lost any hope that Black Widow is alive and the solo movie wouldn’t be an origin story. From what I’m hearing, it will definitely be an origin. The question is, do people really wanna see an origin story about a dead character with no future. Maybe they’re setting up another Black Widow. But still, It’s a hard sell and personally I’d have zero interest in it.

TerrorFirmer

kerplun k wrote: »

After the Russo Q&A, I’ve lost any hope that Black Widow is alive and the solo movie wouldn’t be an origin story. From what I’m hearing, it will definitely be an origin. The question is, do people really wanna see an origin story about a dead character with no future. Maybe they’re setting up another Black Widow. But still, It’s a hard sell and personally I’d have zero interest in it.

A few years ago, maybe - even likely. Now, post Endgame? Zero interest, speaking for myself.

A BW origin story would be a misfire at this point in the timeline.

Ethereal Cereal

I've no idea why they killed her off, it seemed needless, regardless of the fact that she has a movie coming out.

An origin story would be a disaster for her, it's not like she has a set of super powers that need explaining. I would have liked a dual time line story, part in current day, part in maybe the Budapest mission or something. Along the line of "The Debt"

Zubeneschamali

RickBlaine wrote: »

It is literally impossible to explain the time travel plot without massive plot holes and inconsistencies.

Reading the Russo Q&A, they did have a consistent scheme in mind, they just messed it up a bit in the final movie. If Prof Hulk had been clearer, and a line or two had been changed in Tony's chat with his Dad and Steve's bench scene, it would have been completely fine.


They also say that Black Widow is dead and it is not reversible, but that is now nonsense - Steve could just grab a fresh Black Widow from some past reality and bring her forward. Vision, too, or Tony, or whoever. Hell, go get 100 Captain Marvels, and they can handle the hero sh!t from now on.

paulbok

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

Reading the Russo Q&A, they did have a consistent scheme in mind, they just messed it up a bit in the final movie. If Prof Hulk had been clearer, and a line or two had been changed in Tony's chat with his Dad and Steve's bench scene, it would have been completely fine.


They also say that Black Widow is dead and it is not reversible, but that is now nonsense - Steve could just grab a fresh Black Widow from some past reality and bring her forward. Vision, too, or Tony, or whoever. Hell, go get 100 Captain Marvels, and they can handle the hero sh!t from now on.

They really need to shut down the time travel get out they now have, for those reasons you outlined alone.
A sub plot of it damaging space time each time it's used would be a reasonable explanation for not using it again.
For their own sakes with continuity as well.

Perhaps messing with time is what summons the Eternals in the next phase.

NuMarvel

paulbok wrote: »

They really need to shut down the time travel get out they now have, for those reasons you outlined alone.
A sub plot of it damaging space time each time it's used would be a reasonable explanation for not using it again.
For their own sakes with continuity as well.

Perhaps messing with time is what summons the Eternals in the next phase.

It sets up Kang as a future big bad, if they want to go that way. All the messing with time in Endgame results in Kang conquering a future alternate Earth and he decides to expand his empire to other Earths. And they could tie the FF into it, because of Kang's connections to Reed Richards. They could even adapt the Gathering story arc, in part anyway.

And I'll stop geeking out now.

Necro

Doesn't the whole 'Black Widow is dead, that's it' point in that interview fall down with Gamora now running around alive and well?

As someone said they can literally grab a Black Widow from any point in time and bring her back to current day.

It's why the whole reverse snap thing to me seems a cop out to bring back a load of people who were dramatically killed at the end of IW.

If they really had to go that way would it not have been better to have Thanos still in possession of the stones in present day rather than destroying them 'just cos'.

NuMarvel

Necro wrote: »

Doesn't the whole 'Black Widow is dead, that's it' point in that interview fall down with Gamora now running around alive and well?

As someone said they can literally grab a Black Widow from any point in time and bring her back to current day.

It's why the whole reverse snap thing to me seems a cop out to bring back a load of people who were dramatically killed at the end of IW.

If they really had to go that way would it not have been better to have Thanos still in possession of the stones in present day rather than destroying them 'just cos'.

I haven't read the full Q &A transcript, but I'm taking it that the "Black Widow is dead" line is referring to not being able to resurrect her after her sacrifice on Vormir. Sure they could use time travel to bring back a past version, but I suspect they will rarely if ever do that. Otherwise, the possibility of death carries no meaning in any future movies.

Zubeneschamali

NuMarvel wrote: »

Otherwise, the possibility of death carries no meaning in any future movies.

That is literally what this background means. There are an infinite number of identical Tony Starks out there, so if one dies, there are, let's see, yep, still an infinite number of them. Death means nothing.

megaten

Necro wrote: »

Doesn't the whole 'Black Widow is dead, that's it' point in that interview fall down with Gamora now running around alive and well?

As someone said they can literally grab a Black Widow from any point in time and bring her back to current day.

It's why the whole reverse snap thing to me seems a cop out to bring back a load of people who were dramatically killed at the end of IW.

If they really had to go that way would it not have been better to have Thanos still in possession of the stones in present day rather than destroying them 'just cos'.

I mean not really? Your basically kidnapping a different version of them. They're not really the same person you knew. Gamora attacks Star Lord the minute he touchers her because they have no history together.

Related to time travel shenanigans I think Nebula was one of may favourite parts of this movie. She played a major part in the story culminating in literally killing her past self showing the gulf in what she was and what she has become. The small bit with her and Rhodey when they retrieve the power stone is great too.

Necro

megaten wrote:

I mean not really? Your basically kidnapping a different version of them. They're not really the same person you knew. Gamora attacks Star Lord the minute he touchers her because they have no history together.

Yes but the paradox comes into play with Thanos and his army coming from the past to the future and being defeated. If anything she should have disappeared with Tony's snap as well so as not to create that sort of issue.

megaten

Necro wrote: »

Yes but the paradox comes into play with Thanos and his army coming from the past to the future and being defeated. If anything she should have disappeared with Tony's snap as well so as not to create that sort of issue.

Your thinking to hard when it comes to time travel. They movie goes out of its way to say don't worry about paradox's.

Necro

megaten wrote:

Your thinking to hard when it comes to time travel. They movie goes out of its way to say don't worry about paradox's.

I guess that's my problem:pac:
If you introduce the idea of paradoxes then you can't arbitrarily tell the viewers to ignore them imo anyways.

megaten

Necro wrote: »

I guess that's my problem:pac:
If you introduce the idea of paradoxes then you can't arbitrarily tell the viewers to ignore them imo anyways.

They don't introduce the idea of paradox's though?

Zubeneschamali

megaten wrote: »

They movie goes out of its way to say don't worry about paradox's.

No, they explain (badly) that with the version of time travel they discover, there can never be any paradoxes.



The apparent loops in the movie (Steve on the bench and Tony's dad's favorite saying) have to be explained off-screen somehow. (The real explanation being the writers forgot which version of time travel they were using).

Zubeneschamali

megaten wrote: »

They don't introduce the idea of paradox's though?

Prof. Hulk says that you cannot change your present by going to the past, so no paradoxes.

Acosta

megaten wrote: »

I mean not really? Your basically kidnapping a different version of them. They're not really the same person you knew. Gamora attacks Star Lord the minute he touchers her because they have no history together.

These last two Avengers movies have kind of messed up the Guardians trilogy a bit. I only care as I think the first two are by far and away the best MCU movies. I would have liked if James Gunn had written Endgame.

I enjoyed Endgame, but I do really need to see it again before giving a final judgement. The sound wasn't great in there and first 45 minutes I was distracted by the guy sitting next to me eating popcorn like his life depended on it.

It felt a bit long. I think they could have shaved 20 minutes of so off it. Infinity War seemed more focused and sure of itself. Overall a better movie I think. As was the first Avengers movie.
I don't like the latest version of Hulk and I don't think Chris Hemsworth is as funny a comedy actor as the writers of this and the last Thor movie think he is.

As I'm sure many others did I pretty much predicted who was going to die in this walking out of seeing Infinity War. I liked Captain Americas happy ending though. That was quite nice.
All the time travel stuff was confusing and I generally like that kind of thing.

Overall a good end to a mostly brilliant run of movies over many years.

razorblunt

Just saw it. I’m not a massive fan of avengers, I like them as cinematic events but have no emotional attachment to it. I liked many of the stand alone movies though.

Nice way to close the whole thing but felt like it was missing something from being perfect

- underpowering Thor for lols, I thought his PTSD story would have been interesting but they went down the “lol he has moobs” line
- Paltrow in general is appalling, when did she get a suit?
- Banner Hulk was weird
- Hawkeye and Black Widow pulling a gun and arrow in an immortal entity then the former surviving a battle with thanos’ crowd
- I think they missed a perfect ending for Captain America by having him walk back into the bar at the arranged time
- the girl power scene was just a face palm
- Bucky not getting the shield was a strange choice
- GoT got criticised for plot armour but jeez there’s some dead weight hanging around after the last battle

I really enjoyed Ant Man though I felt he lifted it when he came along and it was clever in the most part. I really enjoyed the stone gathering scenes too.

Victor

razorblunt wrote: »

- Paltrow in general is appalling, when did she get a suit?

When Tony finds his daughter with the helmet in the garden, there is a comment about him wanting Pepper to do things in the bedroom.

FutureGuy

Great movie but that all-female superhero scene was pathetic. The number of people in the cinema that groaned when it happened was very noticeable.

Mitch Connor

I seemed Tony had stopped being iron man, so I felt it odd he built a suit for pepper.