Do you work? ... In work?

Keyzer

ryo.jodeci wrote: »

That's correct, in comparison to other platforms or languages it's great. But when you're getting into complex neural networks, it requires more than just knowing the basics of code. Still though, the reason behind pythons success is its usability and great number of easy to use libraries.

Miles Dyson?

facehugger99

Back in the bad old days of the recession, I worked for a multi-national that went into liquidation (their Irish arm did anyway). I had been working there for the previous 8 years and when everyone was laid off, they offered me a 6-month contract to stay on and deal with any residual queries or issues from their previous Clients.

I wasn't too thrilled by the idea but named a fairly hefty rate for the 6 months and was quite surprised when they came back to me straight away and agreed to it.

I spent the next 6 months going into an empty office from 9am to 5pm, Mon-Fri. I hardly ever saw anyone else and I probably answered less than 2 dozen calls over the 6 months. I would sometimes go a full week without interacting with anyone else or doing a tap of 'work'. I'd sometimes wander around the office, it was a surreal experience with all the empty desks.

Mostly I read books. I had a couple of personal projects on the go which I would work on too.

I really enjoyed it, but I suspect that some of that was to do with the fact that I knew it was only a relatively short-term situation.

itech

Griffin Large Jackal wrote: »

€625 isn't a particularly high rate for a contractor. Although his/her circumstances are odd, there's plenty of contracted devs on higher day rates who are so bad at their jobs that their client would be better off if they weren't doing anything.

OU812 wrote: »

That rate is lower end of the scale where I work. There's guys in on €750-€950 a day, have one guy on €2,500 a day, only works four days a week; but he's extremely specialised.

And to be honest, we've had to pay them for several months to do very little between projects, because it would have cost us much more to go looking for the same skillset & experience if we'd jettisoned them when the previous project ended. Normally any delay between projects is outside of our control & the fault of third parties who have penalties so it doesn't cost us anything extra.



Man... the consultancy companies are creaming it off these guys, they take such a huge chunk & some of them have 10-15 guys placed. Literally money to send an invoice in.

How does one attain rates like that as a developer, do you have to be degree qualified or could one with a multitude of projects on Github qualify to become a contractor?

rd1izb7lvpuksx

itech wrote: »

How does one attain rates like that as a developer, do you have to be degree qualified or could one with a multitude of projects on Github qualify to become a contractor?

Some companies outright require degrees (although in my experience, there's zero correlation between Bachelor's degrees and ability, and probably a negative correlation between postgraduate degrees and ability). For mid-rate jobs, you will need some development experience, and the ability to pass an interview.

Depending on the company, this might require extensive knowledge of the technologies in question and an excellent understanding of the fundamentals of mathematics and computer science, as well as being able to demonstrate personal leadership, clear communication skills, integrity, and the ability to integrate into a team. More likely, though, you'll be subjected to a few gotcha interview questions by interviewers who are themselves low-quality developers and insecure about it.

For high-rate jobs, €1,000-5,000+ per diem, you will have to be able to demonstrate a clear record of solving a problem for the business (usually through word-of-mouth references before you are approached), and will have to convince a senior stakeholder to risk some part of their personal reputation on hiring you. Ironically, these jobs are easier to get than lower-level work, because you have a track record that de-risks you to the business.

mvl

This thread makes me wonder if there shouldn't be another sub-forum in Work & Jobs that handles random coaching subjects that are not necessarily Work Problems, such as this one.

Sunflower 27

irish_goat wrote: »

Bring a laptop in, stick it under your desk and use your work computer as an external monitor.

Genius

Avatar MIA

mvl wrote: »

This thread makes me wonder if there shouldn't be another sub-forum in Work & Jobs that handles random coaching subjects that are not necessarily Work Problems, such as this one.

I wonder about TOTALLY different things to be honest :pac:

macman501

SCOOP 64 wrote: »

Would you say its been genuinely hard work to get to were you are today?

I should no better than to make this comment. But I'm going to do this anyway.
This question comes up alot in relation to similar roles.

My guess is that, OP would say - no, it wasn't hard. It just took a bit of persistence and study (and also because he/she has some interest in it).

The truth is, people always underestimate themselves. This is especially true in the development / engineering world where there is alot of talent (its easy to compare yourself and forget how good you are).

That combined with the fact that people entering the field don't know what they don't know (ie Stupid people don't know that they are stupid... I don't know how to say that in a nice way).


The confusion here is the hourly rate. This comes back to a billable hours thing.
However, developers aren't really paid for their time. In most cases, they are paid for their knowledge and so the compensation usually reflects this.

Berserker

ryo.jodeci wrote: »

Yes we were talking about that. It's just that I sit right next to my manager who seems to live in a pretend world that we're all busy. Being on BBC is fine, but actually taking in a laptop and using it in front of her could look like I'm trying to shake her out of a fantasy world she's in!

Yeah, that's standard fare from my experience. We used to have an excess of contractors for a heavy majority of the year, costing upwards of €1K per day each. Pretending that they were snowed under and the working environment was very high pressure was part of the game when you sat in the management/leadership meetings. I wouldn't bring in a personal laptop. That's against the T&Cs of your contract, I'd wager.

ryo.jodeci wrote: »

Small things like mortgages/healthcare/benefits like working from home the odd day are all permanent staff features. I'd hate to go back to appraisals and goal setting though:pac:

I'd love to get away from the appraisals and goal setting. It really is a painful experience and you just get totally fed up with it as the years goes on. I've managed to steer clear of it this year, thankfully because we had a very project heavy year. I'm more than happy to take a one every year if it means that I don't have to set these goals. It's complete BS anyway. Achieving these goals is not going to get you promoted. Building professional relationships during working hours and at work functions is by far the best way to get promoted.

s7ryf3925pivug

Berserker wrote: »

Yeah, that's standard fare from my experience. We used to have an excess of contractors for a heavy majority of the year, costing upwards of €1K per day each. Pretending that they were snowed under and the working environment was very high pressure was part of the game when you sat in the management/leadership meetings. I wouldn't bring in a personal laptop. That's against the T&Cs of your contract, I'd wager.



I'd love to get away from the appraisals and goal setting. It really is a painful experience and you just get totally fed up with it as the years goes on. I've managed to steer clear of it this year, thankfully because we had a very project heavy year. I'm more than happy to take a one every year if it means that I don't have to set these goals. It's complete BS anyway. Achieving these goals is not going to get you promoted. Building professional relationships during working hours and at work functions is by far the best way to get promoted.

I've done well in my current position by ignoring metrics and 'goals' and focusing on building a quality product instead. I find that the two are often at odds with each other. ...I've even been able to skip attending company functions after the first year.

NSAman

Sounds like a hard life blergh.

I personally couldn't do it even for the cash (don't get out of bed for less than 1500 per day... .lol and if it is consultancy its 5000 a day). I need to be busy all the time. Its now 5.30pm here, have been in work since 7am and its been crazy. Probably have another hour or so to do to catch up and give me some time tomorrow.

Love my job so the hours just pass by sooooo quickly. If I have nothing to do, which is rare, I find the day just trickles by.

fungie

NSAman wrote: »

Sounds like a hard life blergh.

I personally couldn't do it even for the cash (don't get out of bed for less than 1500 per day... .lol and if it is consultancy its 5000 a day). I need to be busy all the time. Its now 5.30pm here, have been in work since 7am and its been crazy. Probably have another hour or so to do to catch up and give me some time tomorrow.

Love my job so the hours just pass by sooooo quickly. If I have nothing to do, which is rare, I find the day just trickles by.

I've always been confused why people work so much more than they have to. Research has also shown that once you go about x hours (about 50/week) you might as well not bother.

ryo.jodeci

fungie wrote: »

I've always been confused why people work so much more than they have to. Research has also shown that once you go about x hours (about 50/week) you might as well not bother.

Not sure I agree with that in all cases. I would say yes over long timeframe it shows a lack of personal organisation or ability to say no. But almost all jobs (except my current one apparently!) require a few weeks of overtime to get something over the line. Definitely in the developer world, when there is an issue, we have to work late and that is certainly worth the bother.

Dr.Sanchez

ryo.jodeci wrote: »

Not sure I agree with that in all cases. I would say yes over long timeframe it shows a lack of personal organisation or ability to say no.

This.

I worked for a Danish company that frowned upon you if you worked late. They saw it as either;

A) you couldn't manage the workload between 9-5 - personal organisation, or,
you had too much workload and needed help with it.

Anytime I tried to contact someone in the Danish office a minute past 5 there would be no answer!

A great approach to work they have!

Keyzer

NSAman wrote: »

Sounds like a hard life blergh.

I personally couldn't do it even for the cash (don't get out of bed for less than 1500 per day... .lol and if it is consultancy its 5000 a day). I need to be busy all the time. Its now 5.30pm here, have been in work since 7am and its been crazy. Probably have another hour or so to do to catch up and give me some time tomorrow.

Love my job so the hours just pass by sooooo quickly. If I have nothing to do, which is rare, I find the day just trickles by.

Without revealing too much information, what do you do for a living?

Avatar MIA

Keyzer wrote: »

Without revealing too much information, what do you do for a living?

Judging by recent comments of theirs I've seen trolling is well paid.

NSAman

fungie wrote: »

I've always been confused why people work so much more than they have to. Research has also shown that once you go about x hours (about 50/week) you might as well not bother.

I love what I do fungie. It doesn’t feel like work to me, hence I get immersed in it and have made it my own. Some may say it is weird and unproductive, when I am tired I stop. It is not all work and no play. The office is filled with fun, laughter and of course people dropping in an out for a chat.

Is it difficult work? In my opinion no, but it is something that requires a huge amount of experience and knowledge. It is also a job that requires attention to detail and the ability to multitask. It would not suit most but as I have developed my role, it has become something that I am proud of. Am I indispensable? Errr.... nope is the word.

NSAman

Keyzer wrote: »

Without revealing too much information, what do you do for a living?

Run multiple businesses which i have a stake in at this stage.

Avatar MIA wrote: »

Judging by recent comments of theirs I've seen trolling is well paid.

Anyone who does something different is a troll? Jealous much? FFS have said nothing on boards that is not true from my personal experience and life experience. Yes I like to have a laugh at times but Jesus AMIA, you can do better than this.

mariaalice

IT seems to a bit like a parallel universe, one of mine works in a financial institution, she was put up in London for 6 months with the idea of doing something with a new system they were going to bring in, she did nothing for the 6 months one day she sent me a text saying I am so bored I am looking up the FBI most wanted.

Anyway at the end of the 6 months they decided they were not going with system and at this stage it has cost millions, nothing ever happened and the team went back to their old jobs.

Sycamore Tree

Dr.Sanchez wrote: »

This.

I worked for a Danish company that frowned upon you if you worked late. They saw it as either;

A) you couldn't manage the workload between 9-5 - personal organisation, or,
you had too much workload and needed help with it.

Anytime I tried to contact someone in the Danish office a minute past 5 there would be no answer!

A great approach to work they have!

I saw the same in Sweden.

To be honest I think the Irish are very prone to getting sucked into the multinational/corportate career dream and working all hours to impress their overlords. Especially in large US companies.

NSAman

Sycamore Tree wrote: »

I saw the same in Sweden.

To be honest I think the Irish are very prone to getting sucked into the multinational/corportate career dream and working all hours to impress their overlords. Especially in large US companies.

Agree with you, the American corporate culture is the most inefficient anywhere. People thinking they are working hard by staying late is ridiculous. From a personal point of view.... based on my experience (looking at AMIA).. american corporate culture is not about producing. It is about “appearing” to be productive and useful.

Irish workers IMHO are far more productive and work less hours than american workers.

s7ryf3925pivug

NSAman wrote: »

Agree with you, the American corporate culture is the most inefficient anywhere. People thinking they are working hard by staying late is ridiculous. From a personal point of view.... based on my experience (looking at AMIA).. american corporate culture is not about producing. It is about “appearing” to be productive and useful.

Irish workers IMHO are far more productive and work less hours than american workers.

They get fewer holidays but I've been working for an American customer for years and have found them to be more focused on quality and less on timelines than Irish counterparts. There is a tendency to focus on speed at the expense of quality at all levels in the industry in Ireland. The companies I know that are focused on quality are all American. 'Heroic' excessive hours as a measure of value is an Irish phenomenon from what I've seen.

NSAman

Aadhya Teeny Window wrote: »

They get fewer holidays but I've been working for an American customer for years and have found them to be more focused on quality and less on timelines than Irish counterparts. There is a tendency to focus on speed at the expense of quality at all levels in the industry in Ireland. The companies I know that are focused on quality are all American. 'Heroic' excessive hours as a measure of value is an Irish phenomenon from what I've seen.

We shall agree to differ then Aadhya Teeny Window..;)

Working in the States I see the differences completely between both countries from my perspective. One weeks holidays a year then possibly two after a years service... corporate is different I do agree holiday wise.

Quality, hmmmm... I suppose it depends on the industry. With regards to programming.. (which I am only familiar with at arms length) I cannot say...but in many things,,quality is remiss. Timelines are key and people are put under serious timelines to get things done (hence some would say the long hours)... again it all depends on the industry.

From a general (and this is very general) appearance most workers hate what they do.....full employment in my area, but the chance to diversify is difficult.

s7ryf3925pivug

NSAman wrote: »

We shall agree to differ then blergh..;)

Working in the States I see the differences completely between both countries from my perspective. One weeks holidays a year then possibly two after a years service... corporate is different I do agree holiday wise.

Quality, hmmmm... I suppose it depends on the industry. With regards to programming.. (which I am only familiar with at arms length) I cannot say...but in many things,,quality is remiss. Timelines are key and people are put under serious timelines to get things done (hence some would say the long hours)... again it all depends on the industry.

From a general (and this is very general) appearance most workers hate what they do.....full employment in my area, but the chance to diversify is difficult.

Well according to the netflix documentary on the subject there's a culture of amphetamine usage in software development there, as well as people using meal replacement drinks so they can skip normal feeding. So that sort of extremism must exist. Just saying you can't generalise too much.

NSAman

Aadhya Teeny Window wrote: »

Well according to the netflix documentary on the subject there's a culture of amphetamine usage in software development there, as well as people usibg meal replacement drinks so they can skip normal feeding. So thqt sort of extremism must exist. Just saying you can't generalise too much.

I honestly don't know in the software industry... but skipping meals tends to be the norm as does protein shakes/burger king/meal replacement shakes etc..etc.. Cannot say too much about the drug taking as I have never taken drugs and do not drink, but judging by some of the people I have met, it seems prevalent all over the states.... hell, I was in Colorado and I got a coupon for 10% off at the local weed shop... strange indeed..;)

Stovepipe

I worked for an American firm(industrial turbines) and they had some quirks; the shop floor workforce was unionised but they didnt throw their weight around; overtime was available and they were encouraged to take it up but not to lash it; presenteeism was actively discouraged; managers were expected to have degrees to get off the shop floor; virtually every manager had shop floor experience and graduate hires were sent there to gain at least 6 months experience working thru all the processes so that they understood what they were dealing with. Work related courses were paid for and getting qualifications was actively encouraged, especially if it benefited the company. Time off was generous by American standards, and in the week after Christmas, a skeleton staff ran the place and it was made clear to customers and suppliers that knocking on the door that week might get a slow response. Any staff member who used their own tools on the job, which a lot of the floor staff did, were given an annual sub to replace tools. In the field, staff of all grades were expected to muck in to get a job completed, even if it required long shifts but they would get compensated with extra time off or money. A typical day was 8am to 6pm but quite a few staff had flexitime and there were shifts during periods of high demand, for shop floor staff. They had all the usual American ****e like Employee of the Month (cheesy picture on the wall) and Staff burger or pizza nights or a Saturday barbeque. Attendance was not compulsory but managers were expected to attend but even that could be spotty and not enforced. The company held a Friday toolbox talk for all the floor staff and any of the office staff who cared to attend and they talked about production stats and what was going on in the wider company and they added the usual stuff about retirements/transfers out and new employees welcomed in/promotions,etc and who had had a baby and condolences about deaths and so on. We Irish lads found it all a bit corny but the locals took it very seriously and most of the staff attended every one of the meetings, which lasted about 30 minutes in the morning. Over all, they were nice people to work for and the factory had virtually no industrial disputes, high production figures, high quality work and quick turnaround of engines. It was all a bit low-key but quietly efficient. That doesnt mean it was flawless; you could pick up some sullen mutterings, now and again, but that was more to do with individuals than the workforce as a whole.

ongarboy

OP, I'm just curious as to why you haven't considered seeking employment as a daily rate contractor in another company where you might get stimulation and enable you to expand and keep your skill set up to date? We are in the midst of a tech boom and there is near full employment in Ireland at the moment so surely there are a lot of opportunities? Developers/coders are in big demand.

I believe you risk becoming stagnant and falling behind by remaining in this job if you are not constantly using your brain to devise solutions based on you your skill set. It sounds like you could absorb a pay cut in your daily rate as well and as said elsewhere the money isn't always the be all and end all so I'm not sure if it's the money alone that is the reason you are staying put? Having virtually nothing to do must drag out the day everyday and having zero sense of accomplishment is very demotivating. Yes some people (deadwood etc) are happy to vegetate that way at work but I really think most people aren't and you come across as someone who does want to be stimulated and get satisfaction from contributing and delivering solutions.

It sounds like you'd have a fair bit of savings accumulated by now on such lucrative earnings. If you don't have family or other personal or hefty finacial obligations, would you consider taking a few months off to re-evaluation your options? I'd rather travel, do a personal project, volunteer or not work rather than be at work doing absolutely nothing, 40 hours a week, 48 weeks a year every year and knowing that 2019 is going to be the exact same as 2018. Even surfing and posting on Boards.ie endlessly gets boring after a while!!

mvl

Aadhya Teeny Window wrote: »

Well according to the netflix documentary on the subject there's a culture of amphetamine usage in software development there, as well as people usibg meal replacement drinks so they can skip normal feeding. So thqt sort of extremism must exist. Just saying you can't generalise too much.

it seems abusing ADHD medication used to be applicable for american workforce in general, not only software - https://www.nytimes.com/2015/04/19/us/workers-seeking-productivity-in-a-pill-are-abusing-adhd-drugs.html

ryo.jodeci

ongarboy wrote: »

OP, I'm just curious as to why you haven't considered seeking employment as a daily rate contractor in another company where you might get stimulation and enable you to expand and keep your skill set up to date? We are in the midst of a tech boom and there is near full employment in Ireland at the moment so surely there are a lot of opportunities? Developers/coders are in big demand.

I believe you risk becoming stagnant and falling behind by remaining in this job if you are not constantly using your brain to devise solutions based on you your skill set. It sounds like you could absorb a pay cut in your daily rate as well and as said elsewhere the money isn't always the be all and end all so I'm not sure if it's the money alone that is the reason you are staying put? Having virtually nothing to do must drag out the day everyday and having zero sense of accomplishment is very demotivating. Yes some people (deadwood etc) are happy to vegetate that way at work but I really think most people aren't and you come across as someone who does want to be stimulated and get satisfaction from contributing and delivering solutions.

It sounds like you'd have a fair bit of savings accumulated by now on such lucrative earnings. If you don't have family or other personal or hefty finacial obligations, would you consider taking a few months off to re-evaluation your options? I'd rather travel, do a personal project, volunteer or not work rather than be at work doing absolutely nothing, 40 hours a week, 48 weeks a year every year and knowing that 2019 is going to be the exact same as 2018. Even surfing and posting on Boards.ie endlessly gets boring after a while!!

Hi ongarboy, you might be right in terms of me needing to move. I would probably have to take a pay cut to do that, which is probably the main reason I haven't yet. I was lucky to know the upper bandwidth in my current company, so I knew what to ask for. But if I move, I might be (probably won't be) so lucky. The trap I think I'm in though is that ultimately I'm set to lose money if I don't move, because I am not exercising my brain and learning new things aside from the study I'm doing at home.

Sycamore Tree

How about you analyse the current business and come up with a new set of requirements or use cases? It might give you the opportunity to develop a solution that helps the business and also gives you more Python/SQL experience. You could even look at doing the implementation using a language you currently dont have e.g. Java.