Posts of responsibility

fogartypj

Hi everyone,I am teaching around 10 years,involved in good bit of stuff in school.Teaching a lot of exam classes etc.What courses out there would further my chances of getting a b post or a post in the future should one arise.I know they have diff names now.Secondary school.Need advice on any courses to pursue .

paddybarry

Postgrad in school leadership.

RealJohn

Forget about how long you’ve been around or what you do in the school. In our place, most of the longer serving teachers who had been involved in various school activities, both for the students and behind the scenes, got passed over in favour of younger, newer teachers who’d done management courses.

Also, once you have security, don’t waste your time or energy taking teams etc. unless you want to. The message was sent to our staff, loud and clear: we want middle managers with bits of paper.

fogartypj

RealJohn wrote: »

Forget about how long you’ve been around or what you do in the school. In our place, most of the longer serving teachers who had been involved in various school activities, both for the students and behind the scenes, got passed over in favour of younger, newer teachers who’d done management courses.

Also, once you have security, don’t waste your time or energy taking teams etc. unless you want to. The message was sent to our staff, loud and clear: we want middle managers with bits of paper.

Ya i hear you.Anything i ever did in school was for enjoyment or for the students.I actually have zero interest in a post.but was thinking why not if your going to be doing the work anyway.

RealJohn

fogartypj wrote: »

Ya i hear you.Anything i ever did in school was for enjoyment or for the students.I actually have zero interest in a post.but was thinking why not if your going to be doing the work anyway.

There’s quite a bit of ill feeling in our place amongst the teachers who were passed over, in spite of all of the time and effort they put in. There’s a definite impression that they’ll be doing far less on a voluntary basis next year, and why would they when they get no thanks from management or students (for the most part) and no professional credit for it?

SligoBrewer

Lads, qualifications are qualifications. You can't expect to move into management if someone is better qualified than you, regardless of how many teams have won games.

RealJohn

I don’t disagree SB, but experience is experience too, and it’s a bit facetious at best, and ignorant at worst, to suggest that teachers expect promotions based on the results of games, or musicals, or after school clubs, or student enterprise awards, or young scientist exhibition projects, etc. etc. etc., rather than based on the fact that all of those things involve real management of people (students and other adults), resources, finances, and plenty of other things that are beneficial to managers (and that are frankly lacking in many school managers).

It’s not as though we’re talking about upper management positions either. We’re talking about AP2s, in the case of my school anyway.
Currently, the system rewards the ‘mé féiners’ rather than the people who actually put time into the school and the students, and I’m not sure that that benefits anyone in the long run.

SligoBrewer

RealJohn wrote: »

I don’t disagree SB, but experience is experience too, and it’s a bit facetious at best, and ignorant at worst, to suggest that teachers expect promotions based on the results of games, or musicals, or after school clubs, or student enterprise awards, or young scientist exhibition projects, etc. etc. etc., rather than based on the fact that all of those things involve real management of people (students and other adults), resources, finances, and plenty of other things that are beneficial to managers (and that are frankly lacking in many school managers).

It’s not as though we’re talking about upper management positions either. We’re talking about AP2s, in the case of my school anyway.
Currently, the system rewards the ‘mé féiners’ rather than the people who actually put time into the school and the students, and I’m not sure that that benefits anyone in the long run.

Then go and get the piece of paper if you think it's so worthless and easy to get.

RealJohn

SligoBrewer wrote: »

Then go and get the piece of paper if you think it's so worthless and easy to get.

I didn’t say that it was either of those things (and I didn’t say that I hadn’t done that already, for that matter - at no point have I suggested that I’m one of those who was passed over, merely that I can sympathise with their position).

I merely pointed out that there are a lot of teachers with real, practical management experience and they’re getting no credit for it because they haven’t a piece of paper to go with it, whereas the people with little or no experience, but who do have the paper, are getting the jobs. There have been quite a few threads about posts of responsibility lately, and it’s all been about what to say in the interview and almost nothing has been said about the futility of interviewing at all if you don’t have a management qualification, regardless of your suitability for the actual post, or the credit you might think you’ve built up by your work outside of the classroom. I think people need to be informed so that (a) they give themselves a chance before it’s too late, and (b) they’re not disappointed and annoyed when they lose out to someone who’s hardly in the school a wet week, but knows how the game is played.

roxychix

if it makes you feel any better I have both a toraiocht in educational leadership and a masters in educational leadership completed last yr and over 12 yrs experience and went for two interviews ap2 post in my old school and got none. plenty of involvement across the board in policy making, extracurricular , board of management you name it ive done it but no luck. I put it down to be being on a career break etc the previous 2 yrs but some who got the positions were not involved with any initiatives etc running in school. I was a bit bitter initially but moved schools to be closer to my family etc and it was the best decision I made. In all honesty its disheartening when you spend a large amount of time studying and spending money and get no merit it in but fingers crossed in near the future I get a post.

Bobtheman

Keep in mind despite the appearance of accountability and interviews the principal will decide who he/she wants or doesn't want. A guy in our place got promoted and no mgt course in sight.

amacca

Most of it revolves around implementing the new status quo/philosophy in education.

Best way to bring in yellow packing is via thin end of the wedge policies. Link promotion to doing these courses/accepting their values or at least having the appearance of doing so....then slowly implement the culture...sooner or later everyone has to sing along to the new tune.

evolving_doors

Is it the fashion not to describe what the role would entail?
Is everyone getting the same 2 liner ad in the staff room I.e.

AP1 post has arisen
Please email your CV to blah blah. Closing date is blah blah.

Bobtheman

amacca wrote: »

Most of it revolves around implementing the new status quo/philosophy in education.

Best way to bring in yellow packing is via thin end of the wedge policies. Link promotion to doing these courses/accepting their values or at least having the appearance of doing so....then slowly implement the culture...sooner or later everyone has to sing along to the new tune.

Not I. There are easier ways to make money

solerina

Is it the fashion not to describe what the role would entail? Is everyone getting the same 2 liner ad in the staff room I.e.
AP1 post has arisen, Please email your CV to blah blah. Closing date is blah blah.


yes apparently, we were told we can thank the TUI, they apparently agreed to this when the ASTI were in dispute, when the special congress over turned our democratic vote we got this crazy situation along with the joys of returning to Croke Park !!

Bobtheman

solerina wrote: »

Is it the fashion not to describe what the role would entail? Is everyone getting the same 2 liner ad in the staff room I.e.
AP1 post has arisen, Please email your CV to blah blah. Closing date is blah blah.


yes apparently, we were told we can thank the TUI, they apparently agreed to this when the ASTI were in dispute, when the special congress over turned our democratic vote we got this crazy situation along with the joys of returning to Croke Park !!

We can thank ourselves. We could easily have objected but we didn't. Most jobs don't improve school life just the PR parasite that stalks schools. Let's write and write plans that belong as entries in the Booker prize