How would the government work in a "United Ireland"?

Laois_Man

Podge_irl wrote: »

That doesn't necessarily mean they make any sense. The fact they exist elsewhere does not in any way invalidate the idea that they are not desirable for Ireland.

Wouldn't you at least have to redraw the provincial boundaries? Make them all 8 counties. Or split it equally by population rather than by number of counties? Or have more than 4

Tell me how

Laois_Man wrote: »

The most predictable thing about the United Ireland question is that, in my lifetime anyway, people will always be saying it's 10-years away!

In my case, what I mean by that is "it definitely will not happen within 10 years".

There will come a time when that is not a true statement, but right now, in my view, it is.

Tell me how

Laois_Man wrote: »

Wouldn't you at least have to redraw the provincial boundaries? Make them all 8 counties. Or split it equally by population rather than by number of counties? Or have more than 4

Not to mention how you'd convince Dublin to release funds (where the majority of taxes are currently raised) for the North or the West while their population complains about traffic and accommodation.

Eric Cartman

The only chance we'd have of running a united Ireland would be to let renua be in charge, now that sounds like the maddest thing ever, but realistically unless we gut the welfare state, tell the unions to shove off and reduce our tax rates to the same as NI / harmonise on a flat tax , it would be completely unworkable

Elmo

Largely you'd see Unionist and Fine Gael governments. I'd say there be some devolution involved to Belfast.

Later you'd see parties move to the left and to the right and merging.

Those Liberals in FG/FF/SF moving with liberal unionists, and more conservatives in those parties moving with conservative unionists.

Others from those parties moving towards Labour/SDLP/SocDems with left leaning unionist moving towards them (PUP not sure of other unionist left parties).

It's unlikely the divisions between Unionist/Republican ideologies or Anti-treaty/pro-treaty politics could continue to survive.

loyatemu

grahambo wrote: »

And if it were a case of "Them joining us" and not "Us joining together"
IE status quo maintained in the South, NI does all the adapting.

there will only be unity if there is a referendum and there will be all sorts of promises made to the unionists to persuade them to support it.
"Take it or leave it, our way or the highway" is not likely to be one of the slogans.

loyatemu

Laois_Man wrote: »

Wouldn't you at least have to redraw the provincial boundaries? Make them all 8 counties. Or split it equally by population rather than by number of counties? Or have more than 4

this federation of provinces thing is bunk - if it's such a good idea why don't we have it already. If it's only to appease unionists they're not going to pleased that we're creating 3 new political entities in order to outnumber them.

PauloMN

A "united Ireland" would cause Brexit levels of grief, and more - to the point where it is not worth it imo. Most people I've spoken to would be against the idea, as would I. Any I've spoken to who would be for the idea are purely interested in the romantic notion of a "united Ireland".

In my opinion, there would never be such thing as a truly united Ireland. Just like the compromises (rightly) made to nationalists living under UK rule, we'd have to go through a huge and painful programme of making compromises to unionists living under Irish rule. The amount of time and money spent would be extraordinary, and there are far more important things to be done with Irish tax payers money in my view.

Realistically, NI has made huge strides with the GFA and moving on from that point, I personally think we'd be stepping back decades and potentially reopening many wounds all over again if we went ahead with trying to create a "united Ireland". Is it really worth all the time, money, upheaval and risk just to essentially change the name of a place? Much more important that we fight tooth and nail to keep the border invisible through this Brexit fiasco, ensure people go about their daily lives and business can function smoothly and to maintain peace on the island.

Laois_Man

loyatemu wrote: »

this federation of provinces thing is bunk - if it's such a good idea why don't we have it already. If it's only to appease unionists they're not going to pleased that we're creating 3 new political entities in order to outnumber them.

It wasn't my suggestion!

snotboogie

Tell me how wrote: »

Examples please which you think are comparable to a country such as Ireland?

They have already been listed in this thread; Austria, Switzerland, Belgium and Bosnia are fully federal. Denmark, Serbia and Finland are Federacies (some states in a unitary system and others with Federal powers). Outside of Europe, our closest peer in terms of size, culture and economy, New Zealand, is also a Federacy.

This idea that Federal governments are only for large countries is an absolute nonsense

Tell me how

snotboogie wrote: »

They have already been listed in this thread; Austria, Switzerland, Belgium and Bosnia are fully federal. Denmark, Serbia and Finland are Federacies (some states in a unitary system and others with Federal powers). Outside of Europe, our closest peer in terms of size, culture and economy, New Zealand, is also a Federacy.

This idea that Federal governments are only for large countries is an absolute nonsense

Okay, let's just leave it as saying it is a nonsense idea to suggest Ireland should adopt such a system.

VinLieger

Eric Cartman wrote: »

The only chance we'd have of running a united Ireland would be to let renua be in charge, now that sounds like the maddest thing ever, but realistically unless we gut the welfare state, tell the unions to shove off and reduce our tax rates to the same as NI / harmonise on a flat tax , it would be completely unworkable

Would you get over them for god sake? They are nonexistant at every level of the political system and yet for every political problem you keep harping on as them being the only solution to the problem.



THEY.ARE.DEAD.

troyzer

Tell me how wrote: »

Okay, let's just leave it as saying it is a nonsense idea to suggest Ireland should adopt such a system.

Why is it a nonsense idea? I've already named a few small countries in Europe which have a federal system.

VinLieger

troyzer wrote: »

Why is it a nonsense idea? I've already named a few small countries in Europe which have a federal system.

While ignoring all the reasons it wouldnt work in Ireland and also ignoring the quite basic logic that just because it works elsewhere doesn't mean it is either A the correct solution or B would similarly work here.


For many of the same reasons its ridiculous that some people claim we should adopt a similar tax structure to Scandinavian countries a federalised system simply wouldn't work or would take 3-4 decades to get even close to being considered functional and cost god knows how much economically, not too mention the cultural and social upheaval it would bring about

sabat

Unionists would more than likely demand some status for the monarchy in any new constitution - ie: the country would not be a proper republic. This alone would be too much of a red line for voters here.

loyatemu

troyzer wrote: »

Why is it a nonsense idea? I've already named a few small countries in Europe which have a federal system.

Problem - we need to give representation to a community living mostly in 4 out of 32 counties, all in one historical province.

Solution - create a federal system of 4 provinces where they'll be outvoted not only in the federation but within their own province as well.

sounds like a real vote winner in the north alright.

VinLieger

sabat wrote: »

Unionists would more than likely demand some status for the monarchy in any new constitution - ie: the country would not be a proper republic. This alone would be too much of a red line for voters here.

They could demand all they want but if a border poll passed they wouldn't have a leg to stand on.

snotboogie

loyatemu wrote: »

Problem - we need to give representation to a community living mostly in 4 out of 32 counties, all in one historical province.

Solution - create a federal system of 4 provinces where they'll be outvoted not only in the federation but within their own province as well.

sounds like a real vote winner in the north alright.

Who said it would need to be four provinces? No way the likes of Donegal would be incorporated into a federal Ulster

troyzer

VinLieger wrote: »

They could demand all they want but if a border poll passed they wouldn't have a leg to stand on.

This 50% plus 1 strategy of "**** the unionists, we'll just outbreed them" isn't a recipe for long term success and reconciliation.

snotboogie

Tell me how wrote: »

Okay, let's just leave it as saying it is a nonsense idea to suggest Ireland should adopt such a system.

Ok you don't like the facts so lets pretend your patently nonsense idea about Federal Governments only being for large countries is true

VinLieger

troyzer wrote: »

This 50% plus 1 strategy of "**** the unionists, we'll just outbreed them" isn't a recipe for long term success and reconciliation.

I never claimed it to be I was pointing out how ridiculous an idea it would be for them to request something like the queen be given a place in a future UI's constitution.


Of course they should be looked after and given every available assitance to help integrate.... within reason

troyzer

loyatemu wrote: »

Problem - we need to give representation to a community living mostly in 4 out of 32 counties, all in one historical province.

Solution - create a federal system of 4 provinces where they'll be outvoted not only in the federation but within their own province as well.

sounds like a real vote winner in the north alright.

I never said the solution was to use the existing provincial boundaries, it's just an option.

I think it would be better to slice and dice Cavan, Donegal and Monaghan into Connacht. Maybe even Tyrone and Fermanagh as well.

Tell me how

troyzer wrote: »

Why is it a nonsense idea? I've already named a few small countries in Europe which have a federal system.

Because their system of government revolved in a way in which such federalism was always a part of it to some degree. Ours might have done way back when but since our nearest neighbours came on board and ran the show and then the introduction of Dail Eireann I don't believe that it could now so without total upheaval.

We have difficulties with cohesive implementation of services as it as. This would get worse in my view within a federal system. There would have to be interaction between groups and bodies (as within any of the countries listed above) but I fear that we would see massive losses in inefficiency, bureaucracy and finger pointing meaning a poorer system than what we have now.

The imbalance of the location of those responsible for the largest collection of taxes could mean that most areas outside of the greater Dublin region would either be impoverished or would need money to be distributed from within that area to outside. As is done now, but more difficult and more acrimonious in a federal state.

Because we have a system of local governance already which can exercise a certain degree of policy and implementation in near areas so suggesting we need to introduce an outright federal system is misunderstanding the structures which are in place.

Because we have seen with recent political events that change for changes sake is not a good thing just so that a few can feel that they have managed to exercise their will over the population unjustly.

troyzer

VinLieger wrote: »

I never claimed it to be I was pointing out how ridiculous an idea it would be for them to request something like the queen be given a place in a future UI's constitution.


Of course they should be looked after and given every available assitance to help integrate.... within reason

Declearing that if the border poll passes they wouldn't have a leg to stand on misses the point that a border poll shouldn't even be called until this issues have been resolved.

A queen in our constitution? Non starter. Commonwealth membership? Yes. We have no reason not to in the case of a united Ireland other than historical pettiness.

If we have our soverign, prosperous 32 county republic is there really any reason to keep ourselves out of the commonwealth? Countries which suffered much more under the British like India and South Africa are members for **** sake. We haven't a leg to stand on.

In a United Ireland we should let the past go and just try to accept the fact that this is our shared history and there is a bond that justifies out inclusion in the commonwealth.

VinLieger

troyzer wrote: »

I never said the solution was to use the existing provincial boundaries, it's just an option.

I think it would be better to slice and dice Cavan, Donegal and Monaghan into Connacht. Maybe even Tyrone and Fermanagh as well.

Again though they would be consistently outvoted on their issues ata anational level everytime by the rest of the country. What you are suggesting would keep them completely seperate to the rest of the country whereas the goal is for integration.


Im not saying the current system is perfect either but your idea does not solve the problem in any way.

VinLieger

troyzer wrote: »

Declearing that if the border poll passes they wouldn't have a leg to stand on misses the point that a border poll shouldn't even be called until this issues have been resolved.

Thats not how the GFA works though and is incredibly unlikely to happen with the DUP in government in NI

Please continue ignoring that i clarified my position they would have no leg to stand on regarding ridiculous demands like adding the queeen to the constitution though. I love going round in circles with people who can't read what they are replying to.

troyzer wrote: »

A queen in our constitution? Non starter. Commonwealth membership? Yes. We have no reason not to in the case of a united Ireland other than historical pettiness.

If we have our soverign, prosperous 32 county republic is there really any reason to keep ourselves out of the commonwealth? Countries which suffered much more under the British like India and South Africa are members for **** sake. We haven't a leg to stand on.

In a United Ireland we should let the past go and just try to accept the fact that this is our shared history and there is a bond that justifies out inclusion in the commonwealth.

Theres is zero tangible benefit to us joining the commonwealth

Tell me how

troyzer wrote: »

Declearing that if the border poll passes they wouldn't have a leg to stand on misses the point that a border poll shouldn't even be called until this issues have been resolved.

A queen in our constitution? Non starter. Commonwealth membership? Yes. We have no reason not to in the case of a united Ireland other than historical pettiness.

If we have our soverign, prosperous 32 county republic is there really any reason to keep ourselves out of the commonwealth? Countries which suffered much more under the British like India and South Africa are members for **** sake. We haven't a leg to stand on.

In a United Ireland we should let the past go and just try to accept the fact that this is our shared history and there is a bond that justifies out inclusion in the commonwealth.

You think we should join an organisation of which the head is the King or Queen of the British Royal Family?

No. Not for me thanks.

You do realise we are in the EU. We have a strong leg to stand on.

L1011

Stormont would have to be maintained for a decent period to try reduce chances of a civil war; but we'd have to give the constituencies TDs. I'd suggest returning Stormont to 6 MLAs a constituency which would probably prevent either "side" having a majority for a long time - they don't with 5 MLAs right now either of course.

As goes TDs, 3 seats a constituency would probably have to be done; which would totally change the maths in the Dail - SF would probably be the second party to whichever of FF/FG is top at the time and the DUP would also be quite significant.

Would the DUP even take their seats, though?

troyzer

Tell me how wrote: »

Because their system of government revolved in a way in which such federalism was always a part of it to some degree. Ours might have done way back when but since our nearest neighbours came on board and ran the show and then the introduction of Dail Eireann I don't believe that it could now so without total upheaval.

We have difficulties with cohesive implementation of services as it as. This would get worse in my view within a federal system. There would have to be interaction between groups and bodies (as within any of the countries listed above) but I fear that we would see massive losses in inefficiency, bureaucracy and finger pointing meaning a poorer system than what we have now.

The imbalance of the location of those responsible for the largest collection of taxes could mean that most areas outside of the greater Dublin region would either be impoverished or would need money to be distributed from within that area to outside. As is done now, but more difficult and more acrimonious in a federal state.

Because we have a system of local governance already which can exercise a certain degree of policy and implementation in near areas so suggesting we need to introduce an outright federal system is misunderstanding the structures which are in place.

Because we have seen with recent political events that change for changes sake is not a good thing just so that a few can feel that they have managed to exercise their will over the population unjustly.

Austria is a centuries old nation which only became a federation after WW2. Bosnia's federation is younger than I am at 25. This idea that you can only be a federation if you're old is just bollocks. There's absolutely no reason to think it can't be done. Of course it would be total upheaval, but so would a United Ireland.

If you think a federal system is simply just wrong for Ireland, that's a seperate argument. But you seem to be making two arguments at once:

1) It's impossible.
2) It's not right for us.

The second one we could argue about until the cows come home but it's certainly not impossible. You don't need this vague notion of a federal history to become a federation. No country was a federation before they became a federation. That's just common sense.

VinLieger wrote: »

Again though they would be consistently outvoted on their issues ata anational level everytime by the rest of the country. What you are suggesting would keep them completely seperate to the rest of the country whereas the goal is for integration.


Im not saying the current system is perfect either but your idea does not solve the problem in any way.

I'm suggesting that allowing them to have a large say in a devolved government with substantial influence but within the context of a single country is better than them being completely ignored and sidelines in a unitary system.

VinLieger wrote: »

Thats not how the GFA works though and is incredibly unlikely to happen with the DUP in government in NI

Please continue ignoring that i clarified my position they would have no leg to stand on regarding ridiculous demands like adding the queeen to the constitution though. I love going round in circles with people who can;t read what they are replying to.

Theres is zero tangible benefit to us joining the commonwealth

The GFA says approximately nothing about us having the conversation and drafting plans for what could be. The border poll would require some kind of vision of a United Ireland anyway. We've seen how chaotic an open ended mandate can be on an issue of such complexity.

I can read what you're replying to, I was simply explaining why that was my reading of your initial comment. But I'll take your word for it that you don't believe in the 50% plus 1 strategy. I assume you recognise the need for years, maybe even decades of engagement with the unionist community before a border poll can be considered?

There aren't many tangible benefits to joining the commonwealth, it's largely pointless and unoffensive (which means there's no real reason not to join) but one of those benefits is that it'll get more unionist buy in and simply acknowledge that we're a former British colony and now an equal.

troyzer

Tell me how wrote: »

You think we should join an organisation of which the head is the King or Queen of the British Royal Family?

No. Not for me thanks.

You do realise we are in the EU. We have a strong leg to stand on.

The head of the organisation isn't necessarily the British Monarch. The head of the commonwealth is elected, not coronated.

An important distinction.

But you can't realistically try to convince Unionists to support a United Ireland and also basically use the argument that joining the commonwealth is "Yucky".

I meant we don't have a strong leg to stand on by using our negative history with the British as an objection to joining, already existing members have had experiences just as bad.